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I'm making a seperate 40k Expansion for use at my Gaming Club (I might put it up as a PDF if you're lucky), and I'm stuck on working out Interstellar Combat using Spaceships. I don't want to use Battlefleet Gothic rules because it would take too long to play and make the rest of the rules very complicated, but I've come up with a basic Idea and need suggestions and Critisism.

There is only one type of ship per race.
The game is played on a 16x16 grid.
There will be 1-8 ships per fleet, but players may have different amounts.

SP=Structure Points, How many unsaved hits a vessel can take before being destroyed.
S= The Power of that ships weapon systems, not affected by shields.
R= The Range of a Ships Weapon systems in amount of squares.
M=The amount of spaces a ship can move in one turn.
Acc= The accuracy of the Ship
Shield= The Shield save of the ship.

Eldar/DE Ships
SP=2
S=3+
R=6
M=3
Acc=3+
Shield=5+

Space Marine/Spiky Ships
SP=4
S= 4+
R=8
M=1
Acc=4+
Sh=4+

Guard Ships
SP=3
S=3+
R=10
M=1
Acc=5+
Sh=4+

Nid Ships
SP=3
S=5+
R=8
M=1
Acc=3+
Sh=5+

Cron Ships
SP=2 + 4+ regeneration/WBB
S=3+
R=8
M=1
Acc=4+
Sh=5+

Tau Ships
SP=2
S=3+
R=8
M=2
Acc=4+
Sh=3+

Ork Ships
SP=3
S=4+
R=8
M=2
Acc=5+
Sh=5+

Are These Balanced/Fluffy enough?
Please Feel free to rip apart these, but try to be constructive, thanks.
Sorry for the large amount of stuff.

Go read Battlefleet Gothic.

Nurglitch wrote:Go read Battlefleet Gothic.

Like I said in my first post, it would take to long and is more complicated than I would like, and I'd rather create a new, workable system than just use BG bare bones rules.

Like I said in my first post, you should read Battlefleet Gothic. In addition, I'll say in my second post, that you should actually play some Battlefleet Gothic because you're not posting anything that represents the background given in that book, and regardless of whether you want to abandon the rules, the background is something your game should represent and currently does not.

I have read battlefleet gothic, but I don't want to use the rules as the fleet game would mainly be a mini-game to support the main set of rules.

Ok, so the rules I've given aren't fluffy, what, in that case would be?
Are they balanced, or would it be better to just have an Identical statline for every ship, regardless of Race?

Here are some thoughts, based on BFG and what starship-related fluff I've read;

-Cron ships are fast. VERY fast. They are also very hard to detect. I would give them a move of 4, and possibly limit the range of enemies trying to engage them.

-Ork ships are widely varied, and in fact performance often varies from minute to minute. I would give Ork ships a Strength of d6, and a Move of d3.

-The Imperial Guard have no starships. The Imperial Navy has plenty, however. Imperial Navy starships should be extremely tough, but slow.

How's this:
Cron Ships
SP=1
S=4+
R=8
M=4
Acc=4+
Sh=4+

Cloaking: A ship must be within 10 tiles to fire on any Necron Ships

Ork Ships
SP=D3
S=D6+ Roll of 1 removes one SP
R=8
M=D3
Acc=5+
Sh=5+

How are the rules Balance Wise?

Well, I don't really know, because I haven't tried them. However, just based on looking at the numbers, I suspect that fast ships and long-ranged ships will have an enormous advantage.

Also; Right now Cloaking doesn't actually do anything, because no ship has a range longer than 10.

How about Cloaking makes the ship impossible to be fired on, but only works every other turn and can be used instead of shooting. Also limit their range to 6.

It may be easier to get a simple set of spaceship rules -- check http://www.star-ranger.com/Home.htm for a wide variety of options, some of which are free.

Kilkrazy wrote:It may be easier to get a simple set of spaceship rules -- check http://www.star-ranger.com/Home.htm for a wide variety of options, some of which are free.

Interesting List, I'm going to need some time/help to sort out the wheat from the chaff of that lot, especsially as you don't appear to be able to sort it. Are you familiar with any simple rules that use a grid and a fleet of Identical ships? Any help would be enourmously apreciated. Thanks.

There used to be some good systems back in the 80s. . . I'll dig through my old magazines and see what I can find.

Dastardly Dave wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:It may be easier to get a simple set of spaceship rules -- check http://www.star-ranger.com/Home.htm for a wide variety of options, some of which are free.

Interesting List, I'm going to need some time/help to sort out the wheat from the chaff of that lot, especsially as you don't appear to be able to sort it. Are you familiar with any simple rules that use a grid and a fleet of Identical ships? Any help would be enourmously apreciated. Thanks.

I'm just curious as why you want all the ships to be the same for any fleet. Just for simplicity, or something else.

Not flaming or trolling, just curious.

Mainly for simplicity, but the ships will also probably be carrying troops (trying not to give to much away) so It'd be harder to guess which ships contain any troops. The main reason I'm trying to implement one is so any troops lost during space battles (which will probably be inevitable) are down to player skill rather than a dice roll. I'm trying to make the campaign a bit more skill based when it comes to player interaction. Also it makes it easier to use/make models to represent them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyway, here's a trial set of rules for the Eldar

SP-2
M-2
S-3+
Acc-3+
R-6
Sv-3+

This means that there is a 45% chance of hitting and damaging something, vs a 3+ save the chances of taking a SP is roughly 30%

Vs a save of 6+ (i'll probably give this one to the Orks) the chance of taking a structure point is 38%.

I've also made a few changes to the Imperial Navy Statline: SP-4, M-1 S-4+, Acc-5+, R-10, Sv-4+

This makes the chance of hitting and damaging something 17%, but with a range of 10 and a deployment area of 3 squares wide it'll be in range turn 1. Vs a 3+ save the chance is 12%, and against a 6+ its 14%.

Should the ships only be able to shoot horizontaly/vertically, or should measured 360 degree range be used?

you really should have multiple starship classes(I really mean REALLY)

BFG is nice and simple as ships are either Capital, cruiser or escorts

Why tiles? having move tiles in games makes it too linier, diagonals are messy, and the game becomes a giant chess game except all the piecies are the same. one of the things about 40K and GW games in general is the 3D aspect of the game on realistic scenery.

it is actually far simpler and more cognitive for distances to be measured.


I gather from your posts you wish to have the ships be used in a campaign to affect the primary 40K battles in some way

your stat organization is an ok start, but i would suggest starting with BFG rules and working off that. change things you don't like and keep stuff that works.

a friend of mine is attempting to merge BFG into campaign rules for 40K


my suggestions are

1) make movement measured distances. if it ain't broke don't fix it

2) ship classes. even if each race only has one of each.

you could make minor tweeks to the BFG rules like

using the BFG models measuring distances could be from the model not the stand(BFG models are actually the size of the tips of their flying bases and all measurments are from there) this will shrink the playing field considerably and allow for quicker games.

if you have ever played PC games involving 17-18 century naval warfare you can get ideas from that.

BFG movement rules portray maneuvering in space quite well.


hope this helps

It seems like everyone is pretty much telling me to use battlefleet gothic rules :(. I appreciate the advice, but there are quite a few young people at my club, and I'd really rather not have to teach them an entirely new game System on top of the Campaign rules. Also a few of the younger ones have said that they want the campaign to be mainly centered around tabletop battles. Of course a lot of the campaign will be moving armies round the map, and some diplomacy, so they might be a little dissapointed

Saying this, I did consider using battlefleet gothic rules when I first had the Idea, but after looking over the BFG rules a few time I just think it looks more complicated than what I'm trying to achieve, which is a very simplified space battle game that allows players to fight battles in space without having to consult a rulebook every few seconds. Unless I dismantle the BFG rules completely I think this would be difficult to achieve, espescially with the amount of templates, special orders, points cost, ect I'd need to fiddle about with.

In a way, chess in space is sort of what I'm going for, but with space ships, guns and less models

I do feel quite bad saying this, because BFG looks like it would be a really interesting game to play, and I often consider starting to play it. However, as I said before, its a little to complicated to put into an already quite complicated Map-Based campaign.

Sorry I don't seem to be taking anyone's advice, and I hope you see where I'm coming from when I say all this.

Is there anything I could change with the Statlines I put in the OP?

My advice is just do something abstract to resolve space battles, and concentrate the club members' energies on the tabletop game.

you might make a chart on which you roll 2D6s to see what is happening in space. not as fun, but would be simple and wouldnt require alot of thinking

if there are a good number of BFG players with existing fleets and such you might have a combined campaign

have the BFG players be fleet commanders while the 40K guys be army commanders. the BFG guys fight other fleets and help move armies from planet to planet and provide air(space?) support, bombardment...ect

have each 40k person team up with a BFG person to be the fleets and armies.

this would only require a few tweeks and would keep people focused on their part and not need to do 2 games at once

Trouble is, there aren't any BFG players..., although I like your suggestion about teaming up.

I think if I can't make my space game balanced, my only option is to use a roll of 2D6, :(. Still, I will reserve that as a final option for now.

A few more statline adjustments:

Ork Ship:
SP-D6, M-D6 per turn, S-D6+ (reroll 1s) Range-4, Acc-5+, Shields-6+

Numberless Mob: When building or capturing ships, double the amount built or captured.

Space Marine Ship:
SP-3, M-1, S-4+, Range-8, Acc-4+, Shields-4+

Any Thoughts on these?

That sounds good, except that Move d6 might be a bit fast. Play test it a couple times, see how it works out.

EDIT: Also, do realize that on average, your Ork ships will have more SP than your Space Marine ships. If you want it that way fine, but take that into account.

BeRzErKeR wrote:That sounds good, except that Move d6 might be a bit fast. Play test it a couple times, see how it works out.

This is exactly what I was aiming for, a large mob of ships moving towards you at faster than average speed as the orks have bolted a number of 'improvements' to the rear engines, (This is why they have such short ranged weapons) however these have the potential to go wrong, which is why it is D6 per turn. I'll make sure I playtest it though.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Also, do realize that on average, your Ork ships will have more SP than your Space Marine ships. If you want it that way fine, but take that into account

Hmm, maybe this is a bit too strong, but I think is balanced by the fact it is variable, and also the 6+ shields. I also wanted to represent the fact that Ork ships are mainly great big hulking things with bits strapped on just to make it look good, would D3 SPs be better do you think?

D6 points is fine for the orks if you make the space marines 4 SPs

Im fine with your game system but you do really need ship classes (battleship, cruiser, escort) I mean a tiny frigate is no way going to match the fire power or armor of a huge battleship.

i would say have two types of ships for each race

big (cruisers) small (escorts)

also have ranged movement rather than tiles

theres an old WD with rules of a simple BFG published in them by andy chambers
i cnt remember what WD issue tho

Ok, I give in, in response to all the 'you need multiple classes' people, here is a generic statline for the fighters of every race:

Escort Ship:
SPs-1
M-4
S-(vs Cruisers)6+
S-(vs Escorts)4+
Acc-(vs Cruisers)3+
Acc-(vs Escorts)4+
R-2
Sv-5+
2 Shots

-You get 2 Escort ships per unmodified amount of Cruisers in your fleet (orks recieve in ratio of 1:1).
-You may not put troops in Escorts.

I'll probably work on these to reflect races (if necessary). How are these rules for a start?

looks good to me

ive been pondering and this is rough thoughts

to have quick and tactical space ship rules rather than try and balance several races diff stats why not have the same stats for each race.

before everyone shoots me i love BFG!

so, cruisers and escorts for each race

cruisers: 100pts
HP: 9
M: 8 -inches
ACC: 3+
S: 3?
weapons battery + 2 other

escorts: 30pts (1-3 in a squad)
HP: 3
M: 6 -inches
ACC: 4+
S: 1?
weapons battery + 1 other

weapons are batteries, lances, torpedo tubes and hangar bays
weapons are basically the same but bateries firepower stacks (basic being...3?)
so each ship can be configured indivdually each upgrade costs x pts (i havent worked that out yet)

attack craft once launched can act in one of 3 modes:
(just like WD BFG)
fighters, harass enemy ships within range forcing them to direct power to turrets - reducing their firepower
bombers, attacking the damaged areas made by the mothership - +2? to firepower
interceptors, swarm around the mothership attacking incoming fire, torpedoes and enemy fighters - +1 shield and negates enemy 'fighters'
attack craft have a range of 4? inches all around

all ships can pivot 3 times a turn 30/45? degrees each time but must move 2inches inbetween each turn
cruisers:
1st turn successful on 3+, 2nd 4+, 3rd 5+
escorts:
1st 2+, 2nd 3+, 4th 4+
(hmmm i think thats ok, this is to make the gameplay a bit more fluid) while cruisers are faster escorts are more manoverable




Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh and i used inches at times just to give a sense of scale, i cant remember the BFG ranges

Escorts should always be faster than cruisers and battle ships, but always have less firepower and armour/shields.

how fast if the lunar/gothic compared to the cobra/firestorm?