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I struggle to understand what people have against the Greater Daemons in the CSM codex (in game terms, I know they lost individuality!). I see lots of people on here advising others against using Greater Daemons in a CSM force and I wonder why? They are very powerful and can be delivered into the heart of the action, particularly for 130pts (cost of a champion).

The only disadvantages that spring to my mind is:

- Sacrifices a Champion, still not much for a cost for what you get IMO, and it means that he can avoid being shot at and losing wounds if he was deployed.

- Has no wings, but this is largely compensated by where you summon him, eg. at the heart of the enemy.


So, Dakkaites, what's your beef with the CSM Greater Daemon?

Is there beef? I haven't noticed it.

The only weakness I see is if you get your Greater Daemon on turn 2 and don't have a good place to put him yet, but that's true of practically any unit in reserve.

I personally think that Chaos' ability to field Monstrous Creatures along with Marines is a significant strength, and now that I own a few Daemon models, I'll be taking advantage of it.

No beef. I've seen them used to good effect in the past.

People do have a problem with the "reserves" nature of its arrival, meaning you can't count on it showing up until turn 4 or 5. Sure, sometimes it'll come in earlier, but it's not reliable.

I know one of my regular opponents uses one to great effect in almost every game, and he's one of the better players in the country.

I think the biggest issues are
1) You have to factor in the price of the Champion you're going to kill. This means you're spending atleast 28 points more (Chosen Champ) for a naked Champion, even more if you give that guy wargear.
2) If you go with a naked Champion, you typically need 2+ to make sure you have enough summoning points.
3) The lack of Wings on the Daemon is only partially mitigated by the ability to assault upon arrival. After that first assault, you're just running around trying to get into combat again
4) Those same points can be spent on Termicide which is typically a better use of 100ish points.


Having said all that, the SGD can easily work if you put the thought into it. However in my opinion, you really have to build him into your list with things like naked Chosen Champs or naked Raptor Champs for summoning.

minigun762 wrote:I think the biggest issues are
1) You have to factor in the price of the Champion you're going to kill. This means you're spending atleast 28 points more (Chosen Champ) for a naked Champion, even more if you give that guy wargear.
2) If you go with a naked Champion, you typically need 2+ to make sure you have enough summoning points.
3) The lack of Wings on the Daemon is only partially mitigated by the ability to assault upon arrival. After that first assault, you're just running around trying to get into combat again
4) Those same points can be spent on Termicide which is typically a better use of 100ish points.


Having said all that, the SGD can easily work if you put the thought into it. However in my opinion, you really have to build him into your list with things like naked Chosen Champs or naked Raptor Champs for summoning.

I don't believe in nakid champs. It's only saves 25 points to not buy the champ a pfist, at the cost of the list becoming predictable. The best asset of the SGD is it's tactical flexibility to reinforce the army where it's most needed. The choice is 130 points for the predictable nakid champ eating SGD, or 155 points for the unpredictable more tactically flexable SGD that eats a Pfist champ. In a list that has 3 to 4 mechanized squads with Pfist champs and a SGD the flexibility of the SGD to come in anywhere near one of the transport exits is the best asset of the SGD. There are lots of MC in the game, but only 1 can deep strike without scattering and assault in the turn it deep strikes.

Why not just use the 155 points for a Daemon Prince then?

Beef?
Number One Beef: Vanilla-ness.
Number Two: Wings; it's a mistake to think charging after DSing in makes up for lack of wings.
Number Three: 4++ is really great and really crappy at the same time.

Losing a champion not only means loss of special close combat weapon, but also Leadership 10. In addition, they are the bread and butter of the army, not the Greater Daemon.

In addition, because they COMPLETELY depend on delivery, it only allows chances for it to fail.

100 is a nice cost, but there are pleny of other oppurtunity costs if the GD is an addition to the list rather than the focus.

Its not often I disagree with you when it comes to CSM's Sanctjud, but I disagree with you.

Daemon Princes are good too, no denying that, however they're more expensive and could actually be shot before they reach the enemy. Also, why not run 2 DP's and a GD!

In terms of Beef 1, i stated that this was in game terms, I dislike their vanilla-ness too, but it's not really relevant for my intentions for this thread (to hear why some people dislike GD's)

Beef 2 - It doesnt make up for wings, but it's a helluva compensation and depending on where you summon him, wings wouldnt even be needed.

Beef 3 - I understand your point but, correct me if I'm wrong but it's more great than crappy.

I understand the loss of Ld 10, however that can only apply to CSM's, raptors, bikers, havocs (IIRC), where as chosen, cult's etc. have ld 10 anyway, and this loss of leadership can be counter-balanced by IoCG and even the standard (fairly high) ld 9. But yeah, it could potentially cause problems, not too significant problems IMHO though, for the points above and that the enemy will probably be focussing on the GD being shoved down their throat.

The loss of a special weapon is arguable as you might not give them one, and even so, you lose a special weapon for a GD (a much better weapon IMHO), could be thought along similar lines to schadenfreude's comment.

I think their potential flexibilty/surprise of the delivery is half the beauty! Within limits of where your champ's are located, you can orchestrate the GD's arrival with more reliability than say deep-strike or seeing a winged prince heading towards you and then countering it.

As I said, I'm interested by your opinion and would like to see if I can personally be swayed...

Sanctjud wrote:Why not just use the 155 points for a Daemon Prince then?

To me the power of the Greater Daemon lies in the fact that you can have 2 Daemon Prince AND a Greater Daemon. Multiple Threats to keep your opponent busy. Ive had it happen a few times that the Daemon Princes were managed by the opponents shooting only to have the Greater Daemon survive unscathed and roll up over 400 points of the opponents army by himself (in 1700p).

Especially in the CSM Godzilla list (w 2 DPs, GD, x Dreads and 2-3 Defilers) I think its a powerfull addition for a fair pointscost.

Cilithan

I have ran 2 daemon princes and a greater daemon. It just doesnt work out as well as it would seem.

The first drawback is to make it worthwhile, i had to invest around 450 points into HQ's. Good HQ's but thats still one third of my army.

Then placement of the greater daemon becomes an issue. If he arrives on turn 2 he is near useless. With no wings, no range weaponry. He will spend the whole game trying to get into close combat. Other problems with placement is the unit he comes in with. Often time i found what i wanted the greater daemon to kill my champion unit couldnt handle and they were killed or become near useless.

Another issue is the daemon itself. Its nothing to special except a big target, no powers, nothing real special that makes him good. Yes he does have WS8 and 5 strength 6 attacks, but nothing amazing about him.

Some of the benefits, 3 big daemons is hard to kill. If you opponent doesnt focus fire each one of them then your daemons most likely will not die. Having 3 big threats is better than 1 and increases survivability and overall killing potential.

I have no problem with greater daemon it is just very situational and needs to be used with carefull planning and good strategies.

mrwittwer wrote:
The first drawback is to make it worthwhile, i had to invest around 450 points into HQ's. Good HQ's but thats still one third of my army.

I think that is a very valid point and goes to the earlier point about why not include a 2nd DP for those same points.

Assuming you have already taken the nearly obligitory Daemon Prince as your first HQ, the next best choice is to take a second Daemon Prince. Together these two could easily be pushing 300 points by themselves. After a second DP, a SGD might seem like a good idea but you have to realize that you've invested alot of points into 3 models.

It could just be that the biggest drawback their use is the point cost involved. Part of this makes the assumption that you would always take a 2nd DP prior to a SGD but I think that is perfectly fair considering the cheapest SGD you can take is 128 points and the cheapest viable DP is 130.

@Just Dave:
Disagreement is always welcomed, more points of view are always better.

DP’s can cover hop, rhino hop, draw fire.
Sadly, I’ll have to say apples and oranges which defeats my point about just getting DP’s, but even Dp’s drawing fire along the way can have positive results…being there turn 1 has it’s perks…as much as the GD staying safe until later.

Beef1:there is always the human condition even within tactics…can’t concentrate if people are picking fun at you and your Greater Blandmon! True that it is with game terms, but IMO it’s really hard to look at the game one dimensionally…many were emotionally scarred from the transition from 3.5 to 4…can’t blame me

Beef2:
About Summoning vs. Wings:
Summoning allows for the possibility of dying before he’s done something.
It is random, allowing for too late or too early.
The lack of a normal movement still makes it limiting.
It has great shock value, but has lower long-term value.

Beef3:
No… it’s both great and crappy, (with respect to the DP <----forgot that )
Great when he’s shot by ap 3 and low stuff when DP in cover.
Crappy when shot by small arms..as 3+ is infinitely better than 4++ vs. that kind of stuff.
Sniper rifle lols at GDs.

Loss of Ld10:
But CSM, raptors, bikers are cheapest for the former and fastest for the later.
Chosen, yes, seem like the natural squad to possess, but Dawn of War serves to screw that up…and strict Infiltrating rules continue to make it less appealing.
Are you sure every member of cults are ld 10? I thought not, but I’ll look again.

Losing LD is losing LD, the distance between 9 and 10 is infinite.

Flexible, maybe. But I wouldn’t call it surprising, it’s in or out depending on the die and where it comes in is never surprising…whatever that is within 11-12” from a rhino is where he’s gonna be.
Personally I’ve never had issues with Greater Daemons. Either I out run it or I kill the champion though weight/torrent of fire.

In addition, they are not Immune to Instant death. I went to a RTT with my Crap Legion, my Thousand sons Sorcerer took the charge from a Greater Daemon, lots died as my 4++ were not with me, then bam, force weaponed the Greater Daemon though high unlikelihood.

@Cilithan:
Target Saturation is a great thing, but the GD is not there early enough to contribute to that.
So it ends up later which just means the DP’s are still the priority threat and the GD will still be on the ‘out pace and worry about later’…which has worked well for me.

A CSM Zilla list has the GD in the definition…so it’s moot to talk about it as an addition to the list…

@mrwittwer:
Not only 450, but that 100 can’t live without a champion…of which can’t exist without a squad…and realistically will need a means to ‘get there’…which means infiltrate, jetpack, bike, or rhino.

This is a combo that goes into the 600’s IMO.

Exactly, your disagreement has definately raised some things to consider!

I was thinking so much about how the DP will likely get shot as it advances that I forgot about it's benefits for target saturation! Which is very helpful, as you no doubt know, considering the mechanised nature of CSM's. admittedly though, it would still be getting shot!

Well I'm working towards become a therapist if you want me to sort that scarring out?! Don't succumb to peer pressure! It's not bland, it's minimalistic!

Yeah, I think they are all good points (except the dying before doing something part, i'd say it's more likely with a DP, being on table from turn 1) and yeah, the lack of wings doesnt limit it's potential but I still feel if you deliver it in such a place then it wont need wings as it SHOULD go from one charge to another. But yeah, I wont argue with wings being better than summoning, but summoning still has its benefits and shouldnt be ruled out...

Good point also with the inv. save, I guess once again it can depend on where you summon him, eg. near PW's/termies etc. but then again there's also less chance for the enemy to abuse that save as he'll usually be in combat (they struggle to wound) or if in front of small arms they can also struggle to wound, but yeah, mixed blessing, although i find snipers less common these days, more often melta's and the like, which the GD lols at himself, but yeah, mixed blessing.

True, although personally I don't use champions that much (or raptors or bikers ever), but admittedly I would usually summon of CSM's, with chosen being my 2nd preference. But yeah, im pretty sure cults are ld10, even so they're fearless. And the benefits of summoning of a skull champion's good IMHO as he'll likely be in the enemy's face as it is!

Well I'd argue it's potentially surprising as I wouldnt rely on a single champ, that means you wont know which champion the GD will appear from and also struggle to take out these seperate champions, although you could prioritise depending on their positions and potentially force the GD to be summoned out of the way. Once again, I feel it's a mixed blessing...

Actually after listening to your POV, I'm leaning towards the GD being good but a mixed blessing as it has its flaws. I guess one of the things that effects me but not others is my constant following of fluff, which means I struggle to imagine to DP's in force together, which makes the GD an ideal replacement for a DP. SO in my case it's good as it's 2nd best to a DP, but yes, good points Sanctjud, thankyou!

I use one and love him! I can always count on him to hamburgerize one squad of marines. Then the next turn he becomes a big fire-magnet. If he lives (50/50 - depends on if he came in on a flank or dead center), he engages another squad and usually breaks its back, although whether he wipes it or not is a solid maybe.

Biggest thing I find is he does infinitely better if he has some ablative CSM in combat with him to soak up the random wounds you always accumulate. If he's supported, he's always pivotal.

My regular opponents hate him roughly as much as the Demon Princes.

I don't think Cults are all Ld9 across the board.
Fearless only counts for morale and pinning.
There are leadership tests out there...and they can suck pretty hard.

I'm leaning towards [the fun/cool/friendly units in the csm codex like possessed, spawn, lesser daemons, greater deamons, defilers, chosen, 70% of the Named Characters, and Lords] being good but a mixed blessing as it has its flaws.

At the end of the day it's a third Monstrous Creature...I'm sure it can hurt stuff bad if given the chance, I personally don't have enough champions to support a GD...at 1675, my 3 Plague Champions are far too important to the squad, esp. at 10 man squads. I might reconsider at 4 7 man squads...but that's just more expensive even before the GD...

People talk about getting a summon on turn two being bad. Use cheap inflitrating chosen, with plasma load out.
or a small unit of bikers with two meltas. If you are worried about the champ being useless give him a combi-weapon. Use raptors as well.

Hell, once my backfield was going to be over run by a drop poded dread, so I killed off my wounded lord who was close by, and ripped it down with the Daemon.

People talk about getting a summon on turn two being bad because it is.

Cheap infiltrating chosen = easy to kill.
Plasma weaponry actually help the opponent.
Infiltrating rules are pretty strict...if you want any shot with them, they need to be small and reliant on terrain, otherwise, even a hair and theyare 18" back...

Bikers turbo forwards and the opponent still has most of his deployment zone available to bide his time, and bikers are not that hard to kill, again reliant on BLoS terrain.

Coming in Turn 2 is bad, because it occurs before the second turn movement...so you are left with only 1 turn of movement and a turn of reactive movement from the opponent.

Keep things close and tight, no need for killing of Lords....that is if you take one

Debating between if a winged DP or a SGD in a mechanized chaos list is more mobile is like debating between a knight and a bishop in chess.

LD 9 with an IOCG is a liveable LD score. Plus it's not always a vanilla marine that gets popped. Mosts lists use some form of mix between vanilla, plague, and zerkers.

PM champ=8 more points/31 with a power fist for the SGD

Zerk Champ=6 more points/31 with a power fist/21 with a power weapon

With a pair of lash princes a SGD can come in on turn 2 and assault a unit along with a lash prince.

The 3 MC mechanized chaos list is a fast in your face type of army.

@Schadenfreude:
Knight and bishop.
Apples and Oranges, I've gone over that

RR Ld 9 vs. ld 10...why would ld 10 be without the rr? Anyway, I was just saying it's still a negative factor...one that (in my experience with non-fearless armies) will be felt.

Cults: dude, it's not just the individual points cost... it's the points cost of the whole package...which if you want to keep the similar points it will yield less bodies....less bodies = a more exposed champion.

As for lash prince, I generally don't pay it any attension, it seems to solve so many issues it's a given...

There are certainly lists that they do not fit into. But I feel like if you have a bunch of berzerkers, and are charging forward anyway, then these things rarely hurt. I like them, and use the 2 daemon prince and a greater daemon combo almost all the time.

I use to run the SGD all the time, and he was lots of fun. Especially then somthing would charge my Ksons like a dread, and I would be unable to hurt it, then suddenly my aspiring sorc turns into a Greater Daemon and smashes the dread. Unfortuatnly this also meant that my 80+ pt AS was sacraficed to make a giant daemon. SGD was fun, but the sacrafice was a little too costly.

Well, after listening to peoples (particularly Sanctjud's) opinion, I now feel that a Summoned Greater Daemon is good, however Daemon Princes can do it better.

Hence-forth, for 'goodness', Princes are better all round, however GD's are still good, just not as good.

Agreed At All?

I don't take greater/lesser daemons for the reasons listed above, but I also don't take them because they are the perfect example of everything wrong with the 4th edition codex. I cannot wait for a cult codex to be released so that I can field the real daemons that are supposed to accompany the chaos legions. Chaos used to be nearly equivalent in the amount of rulesets/chapters as loyalists, but that has hardly been the case in this latest edition. I really don't see it being fair that all of the loyalist chapters are getting entire codexes and we can't get 4 variants on our 2 full daemon options.

I really enjoy both GD and LD, but the risk of the Turn 2 drop far from the enemy is a real one. For this reason, I generally don't want those units to represent too large a share of my total points.

I take a single 20 man lesser daemon squad in my 2000 competitive list...it's just so good for the shock and awe aspect...and generally it tarpits anything with my Inv save rolling
Though it's balanced by my horrendous rolling for plague marines vs. small arms