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L: Sigvald the Magnificent, The Geld-Prince, Leader of the Decadent Host = 425
H: Exalted - Shield, Collar of Khorne, B.S.B, Halberd, M.o.S = 174
H: Sorcerer - M.o.S, Steed of Slaanesh, Dispel Scroll, Roar = 160

C: 12 Warriors - M.o.S, Shields, Musician, Standard = 220
C: 12 Warriors - M.o.S, Shields, Musician, Standard = 220
C: 11 Warriors - M.o.S, Shields, Musician, Champion = 204
C: 11 Warriors - M.o.S, Shields, Full Command = 216
C: 10 Warhounds = 60
C: 10 Warhounds = 60

S: Chaos Chariot - M.o.S = 130
S: Chaos Chariot - M.o.S = 130
S: 5 Knights - M.o.S, musician, standard = 240

2240 Points, I was thinking Favour on the Exalted for giggles?

Sigvald with the Full Command block, BSB with the other block of 11.

So basically, everyone within the range of Sigvald and the BSB (so all the warriors) have a 1/144 chance of breaking, they're monsters.

My general theme with this was Sigvald's Decadent Host with All-Plate, my list that I want to build.

I don't want no Chariot hate, I know someone is going to say: Drop chariots for another unit of knights. I'm not because every single W.o.C army list I've seen has two units of 5 knights. Chariots are extremely good with how many high-S hits they bring, and can linger behind my warriors until they charge, and then crush with a massive flank charge.

Warhounds are cannon fodder: they die so other people don't have to.

The warriors kill stuff, they're the meat of my army.

Sorcerer is courtesy of Boss_Salvage, he 'splodes heads and provides me with some minor magic defense.

Sigvald is the best general in the WoC army book, the second most resillient (next to archaeon) with Regen. and 1+ armor save, and he dishes out some nice pain (7 WS8 S5 attacks isn't too shabby). Nothing short of a dedicated Lord-Killer with K-B will challenge Sigvald.

Exalted is there to be a BSB, I'm not sure I'm really sold on him though. I don't really know if a BSB is necessary if I have Sigvald providing LD10. I was thinking of exchanging him for:

Exalted - Barded Steed, Axe of Khorne, M.o.S, Shield = 176 (I'd love to put Favour on him)

who would go with the knights and really feth up someones day.

Thoughts?

Off the top of my head?

- golden eye for the steed sorcerer, if you're looking to run solo for march-blocking & roaring fun
- split warhounds into 3-4x 5 hound units, far more useful and disposable
- grind up one of those warrior blocks to make at least one of the other warrior blocks a bit more meaningful, to be Sigvald's escort or to hunker the BSB (and slap rapturous on for extra awesome)
- perhaps warbanner for the knights? a little boost would be nice if you've got points

Which smells like this:

L: Sigvald = 425
H: Sorcerer - MoS, golden eye, scroll, roar, steed of slaanesh = 185
H: Exalted - MoS, BSB, collar, halberd, shield = 174

C: 20 Warriors - MoS, rapturous standard, full command, shields = 380
C: 12 Warriors - MoS, standard, musician, shields = 220
C: 12 Warriors - MoS, standard, musician, shields = 220
C: 5 Warhounds = 30
C: 5 Warhounds = 30
C: 5 Warhounds = 30
C: 5 Warhounds = 30

S: 5 Knights - MoS, warbanner, standard, musician = 265
S: Chariot - MoS = 130
S: Chariot - MoS = 130
----------
2249

Yep, 20 warriors With the BSB reroll that unit is pretty fakking uber. I actually was happy with 18 warriors, but I had 33 points left over so figured I'd even it out. Siggy could ride here, or the BSB, or both

- Salvage

You know, missing that eye was completely my fault, I thought he looked a bit shallow on points.

You really think that huge block of warriors will be tactically sound? It would be 5x4, amirite? Heres my take


L: Sigvald = 425
H: Sorcerer - MoS, golden eye, scroll, roar, steed of slaanesh = 185
H: Exalted - MoS, BSB, collar, Halberd, shield = 179

C: 16 Warriors - MoS, rapturous standard, full command, shields = 316
C: 14 Warriors - MoS, standard, musician, shields = 250
C: 14 Warriors - MoS, standard, musician, shields = 250
C: 5 Warhounds = 30
C: 5 Warhounds = 30
C: 5 Warhounds = 30
C: 5 Warhounds = 30

S: 5 Knights - MoS, warbanner, standard, musician = 265
S: Chariot - MoS = 130
S: Chariot - MoS = 130

-------------------

2250 points

BSB and Sigvald go with the big block, who are then flanked by the two other warriors blocks.

(Note all Warriors are in 6x2 or 6x3), the excess warriors are for the inevitable losses I'll have from shooting.

Warhounds screen and die for Slaanesh.

Chariots chill behind the warriors, covering their rears for the time. If the warrior blocks every get flanked, they'll rush in on the flank. If this never happens, they'll simply support the warriors once they get in combat.

Um, I guess the knights I'll deploy wherever I see thats needed, probably off on their own to take out anything that could really flakk up my warriors (cannons 'nd such)

Sorcerer rides around and 'splodes heads, I can imagine its effectiveness on things like Gobbos and Clanrats.

Thoughts? I realize my magic defense is rather pathetic, but a 3+ save minimum on everything(except the hounds who are supposed to die) is pretty damn 'ard.

My main thinking on the uber-warrior block was that I didn't want to half-ass things and just add ablative shooting wounds to all the units. I'm not 100% behind 12-strong warrior units, and I think 14-strong ones may be simply 12 + 32 more points

I was figuring 6-wide for all the warriors, with the monster having a couple ablative wounds simply because I had the extra points and nothing I wanted to dump 33 points into. If you deathstar them out with BSB + Sigvald that's a pretty beastly 22-strong, capable of killing pretty much anything and holding against anything that somehow beats it. Really brutal stuff. 16 + both characters is I suppose functionally the same ... until firepower starts slamming into the deathstar. 4 extra 3+ wounds to keep it kicking at full power can't hurt, vs the 6x2 warriors that are going to need to pounce on weaker combatants (flanks) anyway. Note that the uber-block can indeed go 5x4 if it looks like the automatic +1CR from an extra rank is better than a possible +2CR from 2 more attaks. It may be worthwhile to begin 5x4 (+2 extra), then shift to 6x3 after taking 3-4 casualties.

Other tactics sound groovy. Remember the sorcerer can run with hounds or knights until an opening to blitz out 20" presents itself, no need to deploy solo. As to magic defense, meh. 3DD + 1 scroll is low but it works for me. And you've got MR(2) on the unit that matters most.

- Salvage

You see, I don't really want a deathstar unit at all, that wasn't my plan. I'm starting to think starting with 15 warriors, going 5x3, and then once I think I'll be charged, switch to 6x2.

But then again, thast another 48 points per block that I switch, and the hounds serve the same purpose as the ablative wound warriors.

I'm off too class soon, I don't have time to tinker with the list. The uber block can pretty much do anything, but it is only one unit.

Well don't call it a deathstar if you don't want to, because I suppose by the book it's not one. What it is is a unit that can reliably kick some serious butt, and it also makes the best of Sigvald's unit-boosting powers as well. There's a reason you see Siggy in chosen deathstar lists like 90% of the time, because he's built to amp up a single infantry unit that is escorting him around (stupidity not withstanding).

Basically the list I was pitching takes your 4 so-so little warrior blocks and makes a single massively powerful block supporting / supported by 2 so-so min warrior blocks. Who are in turn supported by the chariots for extra flanking / combo-charging potential. I figure the battleline must form around Siggy's Ld10 and the BSB's reroll, so they may as well have the most secure, most important unit to form and hold the line from.

- Salvage

I see what your saying, Salvage. I just don't want to come off as that prick that does run a Chosen Deathstar list.

I hear you run blocks of 20 warriors....how do you do that exactly? It seems that your running them like Saurus and not Warriors. Do you run them like 7x3? So many points in one unit too.

I guess your list is about as far as I could modify it bar any major changes. Could you actually see that list winning?

Karon wrote:I see what your saying, Salvage. I just don't want to come off as that prick that does run a Chosen Deathstar list.

I hear you run blocks of 20 warriors....how do you do that exactly? It seems that your running them like Saurus and not Warriors. Do you run them like 7x3? So many points in one unit too.

I guess your list is about as far as I could modify it bar any major changes. Could you actually see that list winning?

I see no chosen in the list man, nor 2x warshrines that exist to buff it You're using a 425 (525 when he dies) special infantry character, where is he supposed to go? That's a lot of points invested in one model, and there's no reason that he shouldn't go in a unit that is large enough to protect him as well as benefits from his movement abilities. Seriously, having your giant warrior blocks march blocked is very sad times, as is clipping your way through difficult terrain

Mine twinstars are a different beast, with 20 warbanner warriors alongside 19 raptrous warriors + BSB that present a nearly-immovable anvil together. They also represent a 938 point investment before the 3 banners are factored in, so breaking them (it does happen, I've failed rerolled rapturous tests) is pretty important for the other guy. Just requires a lot of resources as well. They're both run 5x4, as I don't trust my dice (or tizz warriors) to kill things, I just ask them to survive.

Of course this list can win, and not just because any list in fantasy can in theory win ... Sigvald + MoS makes it a pretty staunch army psych & break test-wise, so it plays a fairly reliable game in those departments. His uber unit will of course be lucky to get into combat where it wants to, but with Siggy's movement abilities you can apply some swift pressure or even set your other units up for a charge - if he wants to avoid Siggy & friends bad enough, you can push things into your other guys. And you've loads of dogs to help in that job, which is nice. Its main limitations are obvious: it has a very limited shooting phase (roar still counts!), no magic phase essentially, lives for the combat phase, but has a lot of points tied up in M4 infantry. Again Siggy helps you over us other chaos infantry players, but it's a fact of the matter that you deal with.

More important to me is that it plays a tactical, characterful (brutal!) and interesting game, and though it's using a special character he is clearly not being taken for his game-breaking abilities (does he have any?) but for his Ld abilities and his prowess. This is not gateway spam (auto-win) nor is it gateway spam (auto-boring).

Speaking of Sigvald, I finally looked at his entry and noticed the stubborn on there. Stubborn 10 + reroll + MoS? Wow. Screw the rapturous!

L: Sigvald = 425
H: Sorcerer - MoS, golden eye, scroll, roar, steed of slaanesh = 185
H: Exalted - MoS, BSB, collar, halberd, shield = 174

C: 18 Warriors - MoS, full command, shields = 328
C: 12 Warriors - MoS, standard, musician, shields = 220
C: 12 Warriors - MoS, standard, musician, shields = 220
C: 5 Warhounds = 30
C: 5 Warhounds = 30
C: 5 Warhounds = 30
C: 5 Warhounds = 30

S: 5 Knights - MoS, warbanner, standard, musician = 265
S: Chariot - MoS = 130
S: Chariot - MoS = 130
----------
2197

There's my tweak, with the extra warriors + rapturous striped out. 53 points for something, though not much. A good move might be 3 warriors + favor on the exalted (which comes to 53 exactly), with the warriors distributed as you see fit. Everybody could get an ablative wound, or one 12 could become 15, or something. You might also think about rapturous for a 12-block for a little lockdown / flanking-setup unit, and then 2 warriors for that unit or the other one. If you dropped the exalted's halberd then you'd alternatively have the points for a spawn. Nobody likes them I guess, but I'm all about the modeling potential and the extra drop is nice to help set up Sigvald's Rampage in the turns to come.

Me, I'd probably go with the spawn, but totally your call:

L: Sigvald = 425
H: Sorcerer - MoS, golden eye, scroll, roar, steed of slaanesh = 185
H: Exalted - MoS, BSB, collar, shield = 170

C: 18 Warriors - MoS, full command, shields = 328
C: 12 Warriors - MoS, standard, musician, shields = 220
C: 12 Warriors - MoS, standard, musician, shields = 220
C: 5 Warhounds = 30
C: 5 Warhounds = 30
C: 5 Warhounds = 30
C: 5 Warhounds = 30

S: 5 Knights - MoS, warbanner, standard, musician = 265
S: Chariot - MoS = 130
S: Chariot - MoS = 130

R: Spawn = 55
----------
2248

- Salvage

L: Sigvald = 425
H: Sorcerer - MoS, golden eye, scroll, roar, steed of slaanesh = 185
H: Exalted - MoS, BSB, collar, shield = 170

C: 18 Warriors - MoS, full command, shields = 328
C: 18 Warriors - MoS, standard, musician, shields = 316
C: 18 Warriors - MoS, standard, musician, shields = 316
C: 5 Warhounds = 30
C: 5 Warhounds = 30
C: 5 Warhounds = 30
C: 5 Warhounds = 30

S: Chariot - MoS = 130
S: Chariot - MoS = 130
S: Chariot - MoS = 130
----------
2250

Changes
Dropped Knights, added 1 Chariot

Added 8 more Warriors to the two smaller blocks, I just couldn't wrap my head around 6x2, it was just too small I guess. So what do I do? I add 6 more to make them an anvil instead of a small hammer.

Dropped Halberd to make it legal, was making the shield redundant anyways.

Thoughts, Salvage? I just couldn't justify a position in the list for the knights, seemed they would just get pulverized without a hero (see first post where I suggested that Lord-Slayer) by pretty much anything.

Oh, and btw, I've been basing alot of my decisions on this tactica (almost a year old) http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/232799.page#606289 (He agrees with you on spawn, I just don't like them, maybe in the future)

Also, thanks alot, you've helped me pretty much single-handedly on every list I've posted.

Bumping to see if anyone else has anything to say. A simple "Looks good" will do.

That third chariot seems like overkill to me.

I liked the list with the knights better.

Even if they don't mesh well with your main line, they demand respect and attract attention when you put them out on a flank.

They're double the points, however, so I couldn't fit in all the warriors I really wanted.

Karon, sorry never posted thoughts on the new list. Personally I really dig it, and I know I'm waiting for GW to pull their finger out and make plastic chariots so I can build my own Slaanesh infantry + chariot horde. My own version involves 100 marauders + 6 levels of slaaneshi magic and 0 warriors, but that's partially because I already have a warrior-heavy army for Tizz ...

Is this list better? My first reaction was no, not really, but then I had a similar thought as you - 1 unit of knights dies. Or at least I know I LOVE killing single knight units, so easy to neuter with roar and have them bounce off something that matters. March blockers are your bane with this list, so the roar sorc will probably be working your backfield overtime, using that 360-roar to full effect. It's going to be a tough army to pull off massacre wins with, but it's going to look great on the field and, when the enemy chooses to engage those M4 smashers, is going to pound some face. And the blocks will have to be dealt with, as the chariots + dogs just aren't very many points in themselves ...

- Salvage

Appreciate it, Salvage, I really do.

Yeah, I had similar thoughts on it, I figured I could deploy the 3rd chariot into a more maneuverable position to take care of things like march-blockers.

I posted it on relicnews and got a bunch of talk of "Hurr my list can smash yours, and heres how" talk, which I get every time, and "These cheese lists with Stanks and Cannons can kill your list hurr"

Again, you don't know how much I appreciate your critique, you (at least looks like you do) put a lot of time and thought into what your going to say, and not just "These units suck, use these, hurr durr my list is better"

Before I start buying the models for this list, I'm going to write up a Marauder-Centric army, using Gors in my mind as the Marauders for the models, and if I ever want to play beastmen, I already have the majority of the models.

Cheers.

My poor Sigvald dies all the time. Anything with killing blow totally kicks him around. Being only S5, he doesn't do a lot of damage.

Sure do love him though, and I use him regularly

Heck even an assassin with the venom sword took him down. Rolled a 1, failed his ward save [using the shrine] and failed regen, then died to the test afterward. I swear he's cursed.

The problem with chariots is that they don't prevent the worst happening to your warrior units: Flanking. Even with 4 warrior units, it's not hard for fast armies to get on the sides. A chariot's charge isn't enough to break a ranked unit, but knights are. Knights can therefore protect a flank more easily and effectively.