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I noticed the following Upgrades to be invauable against the bugs...
Deff Rolla: Running over the "Doom" never gets old...
Reinforced Ram: Tank Shocking over the bugs is hand to push them off objectives and out of synapse range... with a lack of Powerfist/klaw like weapons there is no Dath or Glory.
Meganobz: Silly in how powerful these guys are... Bugs rely on being a TMC or rending for power weapons... they don't have S8 during assault. This means they have to deal 4 wounds with 5-7 attacks or face 12 power attacks that hit on a 3+ and wound on a 2+... the 2+ armor save is awesome as well as even genestealers have trouble with them. [Hint: knock them below half and them tankshock them]
"Bare Nobz": for a cheap 250 points you too can deal 45 attacks that hit on a 3+ and kill Gaunts on a 2+... handy for taking objectives from bugs... the 'Urty Syringe is handy against high toughness, Invulnerable saves are really not needed for the lack of S8 TMC... in addition it gives you a troop choice with a 4+ save.

You forgot the burna boys. Templates enough for any situation. Works nice with tankshocking as well.

I hope more people will start using meganobz against tyranids, then I'll get some good use out of my shrikes with boneswords.

One word for making Nids cry...

Lootas

Alerian wrote:One word for making Nids cry...

Lootas

Not as much as you think... the venomthrope gives them all coversaves, Large bugs have a lot of wounds and a 3+ armor save... wounding on a 3+ is nice. but rolling a for how many shots... !

Burnas find themselves in a similar conundrum... they seem to be only good against gaunts and genestealers and ineffective against big bugs... However taking them in a wagon, parking it next to a bug that makes gaunts helps rack up the KP and keeps your local gaunt population down... [hint: Add a Warboss with a Powerklaw to scare off any large bugs that think about getting near your wagon... also Deff Rolla!]

Lootas for multi-wound MCs; make them take enough saves.
Burnas for pretty much everything.
Tankbustas for MCs.
Dreadnoughts with skorchas.
Killa kans with grotzookas.
Ghazghkull for MCs.

All the deepstriking things the nids have make lootas a weak proposition.

I was testing out running 2 mobs of 15 tankbustas in battlewagons for a few weeks, to varying degrees of success and failure until I came up against nids. His MC didn't have a chance as I blasted away both Tervigons in one turn, then rinsed and repeated on his Trygons the next turn.

Though admittedly I lost the game due to my immobility as I castled in the corner, and couldn't break out to grab any objectives.

As awesome as the bustas were aganst nids, they are not nearly as useful against armies with vehicles due to Glory Hogs a fact hard earned thru repeat testing. (ironic eh?) Thus I cut them from my take all comers list.

QuietOrkmi wrote:I noticed the following Upgrades to be invauable against the bugs...
Deff Rolla: Running over the "Doom" never gets old...

Reinforced Ram: Tank Shocking over the bugs is hand to push them off objectives and out of synapse range... with a lack of Powerfist/klaw like weapons there is no Dath or Glory.
Meganobz: Silly in how powerful these guys are... Bugs rely on being a TMC or rending for power weapons... they don't have S8 during assault. This means they have to deal 4 wounds with 5-7 attacks or face 12 power attacks that hit on a 3+ and wound on a 2+... the 2+ armor save is awesome as well as even genestealers have trouble with them. [Hint: knock them below half and them tankshock them]
"Bare Nobz": for a cheap 250 points you too can deal 45 attacks that hit on a 3+ and kill Gaunts on a 2+... handy for taking objectives from bugs... the 'Urty Syringe is handy against high toughness, Invulnerable saves are really not needed for the lack of S8 TMC... in addition it gives you a troop choice with a 4+ save.

Deff Rollas aren't that great against a smart Nid player. BWagons are soo long and narrow, and typically open-topped, it takes hardly any effort to hit side armor and either immobilize or destroy the wagon. Hive Guard or Thropes make quick work of these guys outside of their shock range.

Rams are a solid idea, however, remember that any unit under synapse will shuffle to the side. Be VERY careful of anything with rending claws or scything talons, as they will rip apart vehicles even if they only hit on 6s.

Meganobz, or ANY type of Nobs get absolutely DESTROYED by tyranids with boneswords. I think you forgot that any of these wounds will only have to pass the invuln, and you're testing for EACH wound for ID on your nobs. If the tyranid has a pair, kiss your nob goodbye, because you're testing on 3d6. A swarmlord retinue by itself(who causes ID on every wound automatically in CC, plus you have to reroll successful Invulns) can easily wreck a full nob squad with warboss in a round or two(usually combat res does the nobz in). Also, carnies are S9, and I3 on the charge. A couple of these can drop a big nob unit as well.

Moral of the story, if you're trying to whomp nids with nobz, hope they don't have boneswords, a swarmlord, or carnifices running behind a gaunt screen, because they will mess you up pretty good.

IMO, (as a wily nid player), your best bet is lots of kans, lootas, big mek cover, and strangely enough(because they usually kinda suck) big foot-slogging shoota boyz units. Nids can sometimes struggle with chewing through all that crap, as most players will go with anti-tank shooting almost exclusively.

Yes bone swords beat the Meganobz to bits... that is why with my 12" movement from my transport, I avoid the swords.

Front armor 14 is tough for the bugs to deal with because of the low BS. BS 3, S10 means that there is only a 25% chance of something happening, 12.5% because of the KFF. S10 Lances help but it is not an auto hit and it does not ignore obscured.

I understand the synapse=fearless, genestealers however are never under synapse....

As for tearing my transports apart, Seems kinda hard when I am getting the assault with 15 Burrna boyz (45 power weapon attacks or 15 flame templates), 40 boyz w/powerklaw (152 S4 attacks followed by 8 S9 power attacks), 10 Nobz (50 S5 attacks that hit on 3+) and 6 Meganobz into a TMC without boneswords (or just your genestealers, or even gaunts)

Your assuming that you out maneuvered a transport list where everything is open-topped (move 12" get out to assault) It is very rare that my rock does not assault your scissor.

Monsterous Creatures have powerweapons at base.. So you don't even get feel no pain with the pain boy.. Cybork bodies do the work!

I thought genestealers are indeed still under synapse if they happen to be within synapse range? Or am I mistaken.

Genestealers never get synapse. Personally, I've found a few Big Bomms to work against the 'stealers. They put some holes in the lines that my boyz can finish.

Also, Grotzookas!

sorry but new nids just stink. no real reason to even discuss them and orks on the same page. basic orks are better in every way.

Well, sennacherib, this is how internet forums work: We cannot read your thoughts. You need to tell us _why_ you think something like that. Give us some more details. Have you got some interesting battlereports where your skillfully handled tyranids get repeatedly beaten by incompetent ork players? Have you got some interesting statistics? Or should we pretend you are nothing but a attempt to troll. I've played a fair bit of tyranids and a little with orks and i don't quite agree with you.

QuietOrkmi and Claypool: Genestealers never suffer from the Instinctive Behaviour rule. But they get the benefit of fearless if they are within synapse range. So all the good stuff, none of the bad. Read in the codex, page 40.

Thanks Mellon for clarifying that.

I hate those guys so much though.

Coming in from the table edges, eating my Boyz...

I've found that volumes of fire get rid of the bugs , so 2 lots of 30 shoota boyz certainly does the trick . As previously mentioned Burna boyz are a must and Ive taken out Carnifexes with Cybork Nobs . It all about how many dice you can roll . The more you roll , the more chances you get and more saves the enemy has to make .

Mellon wrote:Well, sennacherib, this is how internet forums work: We cannot read your thoughts. You need to tell us _why_ you think something like that. Give us some more details. Have you got some interesting battlereports where your skillfully handled tyranids get repeatedly beaten by incompetent ork players? Have you got some interesting statistics? Or should we pretend you are nothing but a attempt to troll. I've played a fair bit of tyranids and a little with orks and i don't quite agree with you.

QuietOrkmi and Claypool: Genestealers never suffer from the Instinctive Behaviour rule. But they get the benefit of fearless if they are within synapse range. So all the good stuff, none of the bad. Read in the codex, page 40.

I agree 100%.

I posted some Nid strategy's in the other thread you made, Orkmi.

As Speed Freeks, you can easily outmaneuver the big things that will tear through your troops and transports, using buggies/koptas to pick off the MCs carefully.
Then you rush in and swamp the nids before they can get a single charge.

For footsloggers, Lootas are awesome against MCs. Shoota boys will tear up any dangerous little bugs and Dreads will stomp through anything smaller than it.

I play Speed Freeks, so I usually have the tougher time of MC handling, but can easily outmaneuver the big'uns until I can safely assault without getting creamed.
Also, if you need to- assaulting a MC with 12 boyz+nob isn't all that bad- they will likely kill off 4 boys, but a power klaw will give as good as you get.

The goal is to never let them charge.

In_Theory wrote:As Speed Freeks, you can easily outmaneuver the big things that will tear through your troops and transports, using buggies/koptas to pick off the MCs carefully.
Then you rush in and swamp the nids before they can get a single charge.

For footsloggers, Lootas are awesome against MCs. Shoota boys will tear up any dangerous little bugs and Dreads will stomp through anything smaller than it.

I play Speed Freeks, so I usually have the tougher time of MC handling, but can easily outmaneuver the big'uns until I can safely assault without getting creamed.
Also, if you need to- assaulting a MC with 12 boyz+nob isn't all that bad- they will likely kill off 4 boys, but a power klaw will give as good as you get.

The goal is to never let them charge.

Hive Guard tend to wreck Tranports/koptas/bikes.

Mellon wrote:Well, sennacherib, this is how internet forums work: We cannot read your thoughts. You need to tell us _why_ you think something like that. Give us some more details. Have you got some interesting battlereports where your skillfully handled tyranids get repeatedly beaten by incompetent ork players? Have you got some interesting statistics? Or should we pretend you are nothing but a attempt to troll. I've played a fair bit of tyranids and a little with orks and i don't quite agree with you.

QuietOrkmi and Claypool: Genestealers never suffer from the Instinctive Behaviour rule. But they get the benefit of fearless if they are within synapse range. So all the good stuff, none of the bad. Read in the codex, page 40.

I've yet to lose against Tyranids, and I find their new iteration incredibly weak. See other threads, battle reports of mine, etc.

If you or anyone feels that your tyranids have got a magic touch, you're welcome to meet me on Vassal, which is the next best thing to a game in person and find out in person. But I agree with the sentiment - in any given tournament, RTT or GT that I attend, I can only cross my fingers that I come up against tyranids - much preferable to quite a few other lists.

Well Dash, your also an extremely good player.

You've won 90% of your battles regardless of what army you've face.

No one thinks that Tyranids have a "Magic Touch" But there is no reason to think that Orks will beat them every single time.

I think it has to do with the way they are written in 5th edition...

Before 5th they operated similar to the green tide but with a more elite touch or a dakka fex list.

I think they had a complete overhaul in the way they have to be ran. From what I read, you have to think of them like a hive rather than individual units.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

QuietOrkmi and Claypool: Genestealers never suffer from the Instinctive Behaviour rule. But they get the benefit of fearless if they are within synapse range. So all the good stuff, none of the bad. Read in the codex, page 40.

Thanks for that bit, I will have to watch out for it in the future.

You miss the point in burna boyz.
Its not the templates that are the real edge, its the power weapon attacks they can throw at a MC each turn.

Also, a unit of tankbustas with max hammers thrown in work well too.
Standard I attacks at S10 are great

Also Do you think Meching up has anything to do with it with the Orks beating Tyranids?

Av 14 that is obscured is kinda powerful... when there is 6 of them it boarders ridiculous... also stealing charges is very handy... that and burnas yum yum 15 flame templates... no save.

Tank bustas are the thing to take. Since there silly little rule never comes up. They are able to knock out most mcs with very little trouble.

Eos Rahh wrote:Tank bustas are the thing to take. Since there silly little rule never comes up. They are able to knock out most mcs with very little trouble.

They have a better chance, than regular boys, but their STR 10 is not a power weapon, so they still do get a save. On the charge, I could see them killing Most TMC, but if it's the other way around, I'd say that the Tankbustas would be in trouble.

Plus, honestly, would you rather spend your points on Tankbustas, or Lootas/Burnas? If you were using Tankbustas, it would seem like you are really tailoring toward the Tyranid list, because of their special rule, they aren't really useful against other armies.

I do agree, the tyranid codex is quite weak. What I lack is an equivalent to the easy access to melta weapon that imperial forces have. Hive guard can kill vehicles, as can zoanthropes, but there is no way a tyranid list can amass the amount of shooting power needed to take down a dedicated mechanised list.

I have a theory about the tryanid codex: It is suffering from what I believe is the first dedicated attempt to make a codex that relies strongly on buffs shared between units to function optimally. A lot of effects such as "every unit within X-inches gain positive effect Y". Unfortunately it turned out that the synergies were too weak or too easy to nullify by the opponents damage. The BA codex carries this design theme a bit further, but makes the sources of these buffs a bit easier to get, harder to get rid of and/or more powerful. Compare the sources of FNP for example, a single target psychic power from a 200p MC or an always active area of effect around a 50p IC that can be bought in multiples of 3s per FOC-slot. Hopefully this will be a carrying theme among future codexes, because I like the mechanic. It's just a shame my beloved tyranids draw the short stick to be the underpowered guineapig :-)

That said, I do not find the tyranid codex worthless at all. It has definitive problems with mechanised armies, but for the average 1500-1850 games around here where I know I'll be facing up to 5 vehicles, I think it does rather well. And I believe the meta game around here can be pretty representative for a general GW customer. People mostly buy what models they think look or feel good, and try to build decent lists out of what models they own/have painted. So from that perspective the nids do allright. On the perspective of great big hardcore tournamets I hope that the BA codex will make mechanised armies less powerful, wich will increase the tyranids power a bit more. Even though that is probably not enough.

Dashofpepper: I'd love to play some Vassal games against you. However I do not expect to win, no matter what codex you or I played, but I'm sure I'd have a good time and learn a lot from the experience. Both your skill and your attitude is, as Sasori says, outstanding. I'll see if I can get that Vassal thingy running, and then I'll contact you.

Oh my, that was a sidetrack... sorry. I'll get back to the original question.

Burnas do a great job as templates, my stealers are very much afraid of them, as are any large infantry units that has to bunch up to avoid terrain or similar. But worst of all is when they flame away all my screening gaunts so the nob bikers or ghazghkull on roids can charge whatever they/he wants, rather than my bubble wrap units. I'm not quite as worried about their attacks with power weapons, it's the multi-templates that are truly unique in the ork codex. No other ork unit can kill 30 gaunts in a single round of shooting.

The major reason things like the above can be done is indeed transportation, combined with the tyranids lack of ranged anti-transportation abilities.

I also personally believe that tankbustas are a moot argument because they perform poorly against other armies (Drop pod assault)

Anyway, If you are playing Orks and your local meta is made up of tyranids, Mech up in battlewagons and grab a KFF...

Mmm but to highlight the problem of Tyranids vs Orks, say Take a Cookie Cutter Mekanikal Orks (No fast attack in this example)

HQ
-Kff
Warbosse
Elite
Lootas
Nobz (BW-d)
Burnas (BW-3)
Troop
Boys (BW-1)
Boys (BW-2)
Nobz (BW-d)
Boys (Trukk)
Boys (Trukk)


Now even if a Tyranid list knows this is what they are facing what are they going to do?

They are going to lance the wagons to death and template / assault the boyz to death once they come out / get forced out.

Failing that they can pop MC's up next to the wagons and crush them, shoot them to death with basic heavy weps, or just charge in with fex's / rending claw warriors or the likes.