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I have the following questions based on "Note On Secrecy" pg 92 of the rulebook.

1. MUST the army list be revealed to the opponent prior to the game?

2. How long exactly are you allowed to hold out on revealing your list?

3. This is probably the most important question I have. How is this handled in YOUR area? And I do not mean Tournament wise, but in standard play with your group of friends, local store or community etc.

1. Yes, unless you agree otherwise. This is the default
2. Anytime before the game. As long as you reveal your list before deployment you have satisfied the requirements.

Of course, nothing states how long your opponent can look at the list for, so you gain nothign by holding out.

3. In standard play I explain wha teach unit is, but I dont normally bother handing the list over unless the person looks confused.

The safest is to assume list disclosure.

Nosferatu are you actually reading the rulebook? I pointed out the page number and everything so that people would take a look prior to posting. Not to sound rude but on warseer many people also seemed to not bother reaing the rulebook first.

But yes do take another look and read carefully and then answer my questions again.

Well, you might not mean to sound rude, but you have been.

I did read the rule, and my answers stand. If you dont like them, that isnt my problem. Especially answer 3 - that cannot change,m regardless. Perhaps you could be more precise in responding? Not to sound rude, but it is your own question and all.

The default is disclosure.

Even without disclosure (which is the standard) you won't stand to gain anything positive from it.

1. Your models have to be completely and utterly WYSIWYG. No stand-ins or count-as here.

2. You have to state which squads begin the games embarked in which vehicles.

3. You have to states which units are in Reserve. Not only that, you have to state which units intends to Deep Strike and which intends to Outflank.

Having done that. What more is secret?

You can hope that your opponent forgets which units were in which transports (ie. the shell game). Most often this will just slow the game down as your opponent makes handwritten notes about the placements.
Time will also be wasted as your opponent expects your models thoroughly because you wont tell him whats what.

In all, nothing much is gained. Except moving a bit closer to TFGhood in the eyes of your opponent.
Of course should you agree with your opponent that everything is kept secret, then by all mean have fun.

My friends and I tend to just tell each other what's what and what counts as what. We're more explicit with newer codices, but we only tend to specifically show my army list if there is apparent confusion, like Nosferatu said. I would agree that there is no reason not to reveal army sheets unless the game specifically calls for secrecy (in the case of the "ambush" scenario presented on page 268 of the BAB, for example).

Akaiyou wrote:
1. MUST the army list be revealed to the opponent prior to the game?

Yes. You have no right to withhold your army list, wargear configurations or units from your opponent. Also, your models should be 100% WYSIWYG so your opponent should be able to tell every wargear config from sight.

2. How long exactly are you allowed to hold out on revealing your list?

You are not allowed to hold out revealing your list. The second you agree to play someone, both of your lists and models and what you intend to field becomes public knowledge.

3. This is probably the most important question I have. How is this handled in YOUR area? And I do not mean Tournament wise, but in standard play with your group of friends, local store or community etc.

People follow the rules, which is no secrecy. Hiding units, especially units in transport breaks the game and makes it unplayable and unfair for armies without transports.

nosferatu1001 wrote:1. Yes, unless you agree otherwise. This is the default

Not actually what the 'Note on Secrecy' says.

You have to show your opponent your army list after the game.

Before the game, it simply says that it is a good idea to discuss with your opponent whether to show or not before you start. There is no default 'show your list before the game' rule.


So the answer to question 2 becomes entirely reliant on what you discuss before the game.




For myself, how it is handled depends on who I am playing. Although in more than 15 years of playing, I have played against maybe 3 people who wanted to run through lists before the game. So I'll run through and point out anything potentially confusing, but otherwise, we generally just dive straight in.

the note on secrecy isnt so much a rule as a suggestion to keep the game fair

1 no but at the flgs we tend to show each other our lists before the game then after we usually discuss what worked and didnt

2 there really isnt an answer for this question

3 generally we show each other the list prior to the game and if we have any questions about a paticular unit or peice of gear we explain it then we start trying to kill maim burn each other for 5-7 rounds

Your models have to be 100% Citadel default, unconverted WYSIWYG models, which means your opponent should be able to know 100% of your army by the models you put on the table. In addition, you need to disclose what is inside your transports.

My time you have done all that, you might as well share rosters to keep things fair.

Since not everyone plays strict WYSIWYG and some people use conversions or counts as, the only way to overcome the rulebreaking of using non-standard models, is full disclosure.

I suppose a case could be made that somehow you are allowed to keep psychic powers secret as there is no WYSIWYG component for powers like that, but as it says... 'the norm' is full disclosure for tourneys, which is what a majority of FLGS follow.

So unless you have perfect 100% WYSIWYG, unconverted, stock citadel models, you need to fully disclose your list to make up for not following the rules in other sections.

There is no expectation of secrecy.

I always give my opponent a copy of my list before the game starts. In return, he said that he wasn't going to show me his list because it might give me an unfair advantage when placing objectives. We had an argument about page 94. I told him that he could choose to play 40k like everyone else or pass on a game with me. He called me names, I booted him out.

The end.

*edit* The idea that I'm supposed to remember what someone had in their list, with all their wargear, so that I can reference it later in case I think something was hokey is ridiculous.

Regardless of whether you like it or not, OP, you're probably in the minority here. Most people show their lists before games, especially when they're playing someone they don't know.

I'm on Dash's side here. RAW says after, convention and politeness say before. IIRC, you showed me your list before our game...so I don't know why you didn't show Dash

And Dash, piling in the wife in support?

My concern as the rulebook states (to all those of you that ONLY play in tournaments please read the whole paragraph till the end) is that I would prefer to play a game in which my opponent doesnt place Seize Ground objectives etc based on my roster. That's just silly for lack of a better word completely changes the game. Perhaps in tournaments this is the norm in an effort to avoid surprises but what's wrong with some random chance in standard games??

Anyway like Insaniak mentioned, the rule is clear as day. You are only required to show your list AFTER the game.

Akaiyou,

Friendly games I show lists whenever an opponent and I decide. Being obstinate about it incites your opponent to think you're hiding something. To argue at all about it during a VASSAL game is even more ponderous.

You are correct the RAW don't require you to show lists until after the game. Most people I've played in tourneys do so before the game to show good faith in your opponent. Much like a salute was formed in ancient times of war. You didn't have to do it, but it showed you were hiding nothing in the hand. In my games.. I'm talking GT games at Warhammer World and that was what was expected of a good sportsman. You generally have no more disadvantage or advantage than an opponent if you both show lists.

Keep the discussion about the topic at hand.

DO NOT insult other users, or trouble will follow.

Quickly.

I have edited several posts in this thread to remove the soap opera.


Please keep it on topic... which is discussing the rules of a game of toy soldiers.


I would also point out to anyone who feels it should apply to them, that using the terms 'female' and 'gay' in a derogatory fashion is not acceptable. Continuing this behaviour is not a good idea.

ok fair enough, the cheerleading does get to me, specially when i know i'm not wrong.

had the same issue with someone deep striking his pod within 1" of me even when clearly told him that he can't while he was attempting it and then had a bunch of onlookers join in to defend the 'pods NEVER mishap no matter what' spectacle.

Anyway like is aid in my earlier deleted post, I'm happy to see that not EVERYONE is forced to play their standard games in tournament style with list being REQUIRED to be revealed prior to the game.

I completely agree this is something that you should discuss with the opponent if you disagree with. And best solved on a roll off.

I usually go over the units in my army list before a game to avoid any confusion, including what each thing does and especially the tricky or unexpected stuff like 5x flachette dischargers on piranas. It simply isn't fun when you think you are winning and lose suddenly because you hade no idea what your opponent's stuff does.

On this note I think I am going to try and copy Dash and print out copies of my current army list and bring paper to the FLGS for modified lists. It makes for a better game.

Here's a question after reading H3ctor's response.

I'm curious to know how many people would actually DISAGREE to revealing list after deciding first turn?

Seems most people are worried about nasty surprises during the game but not that many concerns that i've read have been about setting up.

So would you find the game any less enjoyable if you were to reveal the list after rolling off for 1st turn? So that you got to see the list while both sides deploy their units?

Call that question #4. Depending on the responses, I may infact change this method of doing things.

I don't want to deploy while reading a list, if that's what you're asking. I think chronology is definitely important. You are trying to validate your counter-proposal of showing a list later on. In answer to that, it's just as valid as what Dash asked before the game. Both are different than 'after the game' and both are 'opponents discussing it before the game'

However, the reason why you countered is suspect. At the point I'm deploying I either want to know what's in my opponent's list or not so I can focus on deploying strategically.

This is juat a fundamental change in 40k.

In the old days, you were encouraged NOT to share lists prior to the game. In fact, in the old days of Warhammer Fantasy (not sure if this is still true or not), you couldn't look at an opponents list until AFTER the game..there were even special spells and magic items that forced your opponent to reveal which units had upgrades back then....secrecy was so important, you actually spent points on your army to get around it.

Now, after many years of people dealing with the arguements this created, GW has made it mandatory to show your list before the game begins. It speeds up gameplay, and causes fewer arguments. It does this in trade for the loss of realism of an commander not knowing exactly what his opponent has at his disposal.

I think this change is definately for the better.

As for me...either show me your list before we get started, or find someone else to play....the only person scared to show their list is the person who has something to hide....in other words, such a person is a cheater just waiting for a chance to cheat.

Zain60 wrote:I don't want to deploy while reading a list, if that's what you're asking. I think chronology is definitely important. You are trying to validate your counter-proposal of showing a list later on. In answer to that, it's just as valid as what Dash asked before the game. Both are different than 'after the game' and both are 'opponents discussing it before the game'

However, the reason why you countered is suspect. At the point I'm deploying I either want to know what's in my opponent's list or not so I can focus on deploying strategically.

And for some players, like Tyranids and Eldar...going first or second is a choice they make based on their opponent's list and their own list.

Honestly, you're not losing anything by switching lists before the game. Its polite, its sportsmanlike, its required in all tournament venues....and most friendly games are tweaking a list, or learning the game, or getting ready for a tournament....which still follows the same game etiquette. When someone is unwilling to show me their list, I can honestly draw no conclusion except that its illegal, or they're going to try cheating. I can't speak for other people here.

What I said is based on his counter-proposal. As I stated before that, I'm completely for showing lists before a game for the very same reasons you stated, if not perhaps for the same sentiments about possible cheaters.

Alerian wrote:In the old days, you were encouraged NOT to share lists prior to the game.

Last edition the rules said to not show your list, unless you and your opponent agreed otherwise.

Before that, there were no rules one way or the other. Tournaments generally had rules requiring you to show your list, and from my experience in most friendly games players shared their lists on request.

The secrecy of last edition was never popular.

Now, after many years of people dealing with the arguements this created, GW has made it mandatory to show your list before the game begins.

Except they haven't.

As I pointed out further up the thread, they have made it mandatory to share your list after the game, and left the decision to share or not beforehand up to the players.

In the Adpeticon WHFB Team Tournament, it was a closed list tournament. That really sucked, as I was pretty new to the game and trying to figure things out, I now had to worry about not knowing anything about my opponents list.



Clay

Closed list or open, it doesnt matter... you do not HAVE to show lists based on RAW.

But you can make it available at request... its up to you.

we generally don't require people to show the lists but definitely require them to have one before the game starts. most of the time, we have full disclosure on what is in the units if someone does want to know. we also go over what's not WYSIWIG. i guess thats technically not RAW either since the WYSIWIG rule is in the character section and technically applies only to them.

Meh. If there's a reason to want to keep your list secret, I'd love to hear it.

The only ones I can think of involve wanting to spring an "AHA! Gotcha!" combination/surprise on the opponent... If you feel strongly enough about needing this secrecy to not play a game over it, I think you've probably got other gaming issues, too (sportsmanship, generalship, etc...).

There's a whole slew of bad reasons to want secrecy (in the sense that everything should be wysiwyg)- "miscalculated" points, illegal units, "surprise" combinations/transport deployments, etc... and very few good reasons to want secrecy.

Now, if you're doing a special scenario with hidden or "fog of war" deployment, then, obviously, that changes things. But, for standard games... share your list.

insaniak wrote:

Alerian wrote:In the old days, you were encouraged NOT to share lists prior to the game.

Last edition the rules said to not show your list, unless you and your opponent agreed otherwise.

Before that, there were no rules one way or the other.

Not true. 3rd had a rule stating that you didn't have to show your opponent your list and in fact could outright refuse if asked.

Primarch wrote:In the Adpeticon WHFB Team Tournament, it was a closed list tournament. That really sucked, as I was pretty new to the game and trying to figure things out, I now had to worry about not knowing anything about my opponents list.

No, it wasn't. All 3 rounds Ozy and I received our opponents lists and handed copies of ours over, too.

In fact, from the rules packet:

"Each Contingent must provide an army list to their opponents with the stats of their army. Magic Items do not need to be named, but a line should appear denoting the cost of items. Hidden models (Assassins, Fanatics, etc…) should be listed separate of the unit they are contained in."

If your opponents held out on you, they were breaking the rules.