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The Orks, IG and Eldar can make an all infantry list work, but how would such a list look for a Space Marine force? I've been considering running a horde of marines across the table, but I'm not sure how my force should be structured, or even what Codex to use. Basically, should I take all Tac Marines and make a gunline? Will that be enough fire power, or should I try to just march 100 marines across the table into CC?

Here are my thoughts in order of perceived power/preference:

1) Black Templars - This seems pretty obvious. Take as many max crusader squads and terminator assault squads as I can, add Grimaldus and just run forward at the enemy.

2) Vanilla Marines with Shrike - In the same vein as the Black Templars list, use Shrike's "Fleet" ability to run the entire horde forward. The structure would be similar to the Black Templars list, I'm just not sure which would work better. There are pro's and con's for each.

3) Space Wolves - Grey Hunters have bolters, bp's and ccw's, and ATSKNF, making them the ultimate shock troops to charge into the fray. Their disadvantage from this standpoint is a lack of an army-wide rule that allows them to move faster. This can be mitigated with wolves screening, though, and Long Fangs have advantages over vanilla devs'. Plus the ability to throw a couple extra characters to lead units could be helpful.

4) Chaos - CSM's have the same thing Grey Hunters do, except ATSKNF, which makes them much more prone to running away, especially considering the shooting casualties such an army would take on the way across the board. Cult troops don't have the flexibility of weapon options available to the loyal marines, and if you took one of each, there is a chance they wouldn't be in the right position when you need them most, since they would all be on foot. It may not be an issue though, as a horde of plague marines might be plenty tough enough to march across the field.

So those are my initial thoughts. Basically, just get as many marines as I could, and walk across the table and then get to where marines like to be the best, in CC, or bolter range for rapid firing. Marines multi-charging tanks with Krak grenades are dangerous, meltas will be sprinkled around as appropriate, and they can just stand off and double tap bolters at things that they don't want to engage. The thought is that with 100+ marines, their MEQ stats and weapons and immunity to morale will allow them to perservere in situations where only 40+ marines would fail.

Yay or nay?

im no expert but tons of tac squads......................theres only one way to describe it!!!!

- edited to avoid giving people seizures... -

hello rapid fire!!!!!!

Actually, looking through the Space Wolf Codex, they seem to have the "cheapest" troops with the ability to take their second special weapon for free. Add a couple units of wolves for screening, and a rune priest with Storm Caller, and it should be difficult to take them all out.

personally I'm always in favor of shrike lists. However, instead of running tac squads I use scouts for my troops so that I have a very good chance of getting that first turn assault. You could try both though, and see how it works. They give you a great turn 1 punch

The problem with this idea will be the Lash of Submission. I would stick a Librarian in there to try and cut down on that nastiness.

I actually just started running this (Stelek) Shrike list at 2K points:

-Shrike
-Epistolary with gate/null
-10 Sternguard, 8 combi-meltas, pod w/ beacon
-10 Tac marines, melta, multimelta, combimelta, pod w/ beacon
-10 Tac marines, melta, multimelta, combimelta, pod (no beacon)
-10 scouts, combat blades, power weapon on the sergeant
-3 identical units of 10 Assault marines with dual flamers, powerfist sarge

That's 70 marines, 60 in power armor with the 3 pods as the only vehicles.

Only played 2 games so far and discovered that, coming off a pure mech army, there's a steep learning curve. But the mobility is insane for a foot army. Anything that comes within about 20" gets assaulted. The fleeting lets me set up combos and star assaults and get tons of no-retreat wounds (only played against nids so far). I can hit a part of the line, rack up the KPs, and get away before the heavies get there. Plays very Eldar-like in terms of the hit-and-run tactics, but you get power armor and T4.

You have 30 jumppack assault marines! Awesome.

Now that Blood Angels are out I think this needs updating with some DoA and FnP lists.

powerclaw wrote:You have 30 jumppack assault marines! Awesome.

Now that Blood Angels are out I think this needs updating with some DoA and FnP lists.

Yeah, but I spent six months painting all those Ravenguard guys

I haven't actually had a chance to look at the BA codex yet. I know they get more HtH striking power, but they don't get fleet, right?

I've always preferred mobility and range over brute force, so I guess in my first game versus BAs I'll get to find out which is more important. So far against nids I've been able to pick my fights with some success, avoid slower units like monstrous creatures and even fleeting genestealers and leaping hormagaunts until I'm ready to engage them. For a marine horde army, that feels more important to me than having a lot of firepower (which is mostly static for marines--my whole army only has 2 heavy weapons) or super-assaulty power that you can't bring to bear because your opponent is faster.

Flavius Infernus wrote:I actually just started running this (Stelek) Shrike list at 2K points:

-Shrike
-Epistolary with gate/null
-10 Sternguard, 8 combi-meltas, pod w/ beacon
-10 Tac marines, melta, multimelta, combimelta, pod w/ beacon
-10 Tac marines, melta, multimelta, combimelta, pod (no beacon)
-10 scouts, combat blades, power weapon on the sergeant
-3 identical units of 10 Assault marines with dual flamers, powerfist sarge

That's 70 marines, 60 in power armor with the 3 pods as the only vehicles.

Only played 2 games so far and discovered that, coming off a pure mech army, there's a steep learning curve. But the mobility is insane for a foot army. Anything that comes within about 20" gets assaulted. The fleeting lets me set up combos and star assaults and get tons of no-retreat wounds (only played against nids so far). I can hit a part of the line, rack up the KPs, and get away before the heavies get there. Plays very Eldar-like in terms of the hit-and-run tactics, but you get power armor and T4.

The Shrike list has mobility for sure, but Space Wolves will have wolf units and more bodies. Also, the Rune Priest gets a 4+ dispell and a 5+ KFF! Does your list have to work with the pods, or could you deploy the Tac Marines and Sternguard turn 1? Are the sternguard more useful then say a combat squadded dev squad with missile launchers?

The standard tactic with the pods is to deploy one of the tac squads and leave their empty pod in reserve as a dud, then drop the sternguard and other tac squad in their pods turn 1. Infiltrating scouts and one assault unit with shrike can even make a turn 1 charge, and remaining assault units are in charge range by turn 2. That's for when I want to have all the marines on top of the enemy in turn 1-2.

But it would also be possible (in games where I want to shoot a bit and the enemy is coming to me anyway) to deploy the sternguard and/or second tac squad on the table and drop their pods as duds to contest objectives or interdict movement.

The librarian can deploy with the tac squad on the table to gate them to a better position in turn 1, or he can drop with the sternguard and then gate them around. After turn 1, locator beacons on the surviving pods negate scatter when gating.

Sternguard are more mobile than devs. They can pod, walk or gate into rapid-fire range and put a huge hurt on just about anything.

But space wolves are a challenge, with every one of them being the equivalent of an assault marine in HtH (though not in mobility), even when they have to receive a charge.

Flavius Infernus wrote:The standard tactic with the pods is to deploy one of the tac squads and leave their empty pod in reserve as a dud, then drop the sternguard and other tac squad in their pods turn 1. Infiltrating scouts and one assault unit with shrike can even make a turn 1 charge, and remaining assault units are in charge range by turn 2. That's for when I want to have all the marines on top of the enemy in turn 1-2.

But it would also be possible (in games where I want to shoot a bit and the enemy is coming to me anyway) to deploy the sternguard and/or second tac squad on the table and drop their pods as duds to contest objectives or interdict movement.

The librarian can deploy with the tac squad on the table to gate them to a better position in turn 1, or he can drop with the sternguard and then gate them around. After turn 1, locator beacons on the surviving pods negate scatter when gating.

Sternguard are more mobile than devs. They can pod, walk or gate into rapid-fire range and put a huge hurt on just about anything.

But space wolves are a challenge, with every one of them being the equivalent of an assault marine in HtH (though not in mobility), even when they have to receive a charge.

I didn't think about GoI. That is quite a boon to mobility, and the locator beacon pods make it a certainty. However, you still only have 60-70 MEQ models in 2000 points, where a wolf player can take 60 Grey Hunters with 12 Special Weapons for ~960 points. That gives them alot more points left over for extra bodies and other nastiness. So it appears that the Space Wolves can take a true horde! Black Templars can also do something similiar, and get the added benefit of Righteous Zeal.

I was thinking about running a space wolf footslogging list earlier and I drew up this 1850 list...

Rune Priest Terminator Armor Chooser of the Slain Living Lightning Tempest's Wrath
Rune Priest Terminator Armor Muderous Hurricane Storm Caller
Grey Hunters Flamer, Melta, Banner of Win
Grey Hunters Flamer, Melta, Banner of Win
Grey Hunters Flamer, Melta
Grey Hunters Double Plasmaguns
Long Fangs 5 Missile Launchers
Long Fangs 5 Missile Launchers
Long Fangs 2 Lascannons, 3 Heavy Bolters
Wolf Scouts x10; 2 Plasma Pistols, 1 Flamer
Wolf Guard x8; 7 in terminator armor with stormbolter/powerweps, 1 in power armor with a powerwep/boltpistol
Lone Wolf Thunderhammer, Stormshield, 1 Wolf buddy.

the Rune Priest with Hurricane+Stormcaller sits in the melta/flamer squad without the banner, the 2 banner-equiped sqauds screen out front with a guy within 6" of the rune priest so they can claim 5+ cover saves. Plasma squad covers the flank of the rune priest squad so he doesnt get eaten by fast-assault units.

the other rune priest joins one of the long fang squads, Tempest's Wrath helps deal with any enemy trying to sneak in to hurt them.

Wolf Scouts are to deal with enemy fire support units, usually my opponents will overcompensate for them, giving the rest of my army a slightly easier time.

The Lone Wolf hides in the pile of grey hunters and helps to deal with hammer and tarpit units like ironclads and bloodcrushers.

The Wolf Guard split and join to each other squad, bumping leaderhip up to 9 giving them a power wep and a 2+ save if things get hairy.

85 bodies, cover saves abound, good firebase and lots of bolters... should be fun.

Yeah, I think I have to agree that space wolves could definitely do a viable horde more efficiently with more bodies (probably also BT, but they have other issues). If I were sending my Ravenguard against a wolf horde like that, I think I'd have to try to hit part of the horde with numerical superiority and fade away from the counterstrike, if that were possible. An objective game might be an auto-lose for me.

Maybe you could even mix some limited bloodclaws in for greater economy and some thunderwolves for a mobile element.

I have a thing against proxy models, and my work-in-progress thunderwolves are at LEAST a few months from completion.

Fenrisian Wolves might be a good addition, get them a cover save from standing behind marines then pounce them out with a 6" move, D6 fleet, and 12" charge to tie up a unit...

Bloodclaws dont really add any economy to the army though, individually they cost the same as Grey Hunters, while simultaneously not having bolters, being WS/BS 3, and requiring 15 guys to get the free special weps.

Ive never had Chaos Marines run from shooting. Ld10 with two rolls (Icon of Chaos Glory) is better than ATSKNF with Ld9.

Night Lords wrote:Ive never had Chaos Marines run from shooting. Ld10 with two rolls (Icon of Chaos Glory) is better than ATSKNF with Ld9.

I think we had this conversation already, Night Lords.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/252168.page

I think Whitedragon is looking to play a game in the universe where like the *usual* laws of probability apply.

Night Lords wrote:Ive never had Chaos Marines run from shooting. Ld10 with two rolls (Icon of Chaos Glory) is better than ATSKNF with Ld9.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

Night Lords wrote:Ive never had Chaos Marines run from shooting. Ld10 with two rolls (Icon of Chaos Glory) is better than ATSKNF with Ld9.

I think we had this conversation already, Night Lords.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/252168.page

I think Whitedragon is looking to play a game in the universe where like the *usual* laws of probability apply.

Not to mention prevalence of tank shocks and LD modifiers (Death Leaper, Psyker Battle Squads, Close Combat) can see a non fearless, non ATSKNF squad off the board with relative ease. Hell, CSM's have ccw's and bp's so you'd think they want to be in CC, which is bad since they aren't stubborn, fearless or ATSKNF. So no, IoCG CSM's are not a good fit for the horde army I don't think, and Cult Troops are too expensive, and Fabius Bile troops are expensive and burn an HQ slot.

EDIT:

And Flav, I just thought of something else. Running 60 PA Grey Knights is 1500 points, enough to add in a brother captain! You get the shrouding, alot of defense against psychic powers, storm bolters, and S6 all around!

I love infantry armies, but hey, I think that is pretty obvious at this point.

I have played a Shrike list for over a year now and it is great fun. It either wins first turn or loses first turn which makes for a pretty funny game. I run this:

Shrike List 2000 Points

HQ
Shrike 1 195
Chaplain J.Pack 1 115

Troops
Scouts P.Fist 10 165
Scouts P.Fist 10 165
Sniper Scouts Cloaks, H.Bolter 5 100

Elites
Sternguard C.Plasma x4, C.Melta x5, Pod 11 330
Assault Terminators T.Hammers x 5, L.Claw 6 240
Land Raider Crusader M.Melta 1 260

Fast Attack
Assault Squad P.Fist 10 215
Assault Squad P.Fist 10 215

Heavy Support

Totals 65 2000

The list can hit with all the assault units turn one, which makes for a crazy alpha strike assault. It is a ton of fun to play as well as everything is so fast. I have beaten some pretty tough lists with it, although I have had turns where I can't open any transports and get uber pwned turn 1, so it is always good for a laugh. The combat squadding stern guard help a lot as they usually open two transports but when they fail, ouch.

I also have an all infantry Marine list but I have not played it yet as I still have to assemble a tac squad, but I will put them together and give them a go.

Marine Company 2000pts

HQ
Librarian Gate, Null Zone 1 100

Troops
Tactical Squad Flamer, M.Launcher 10 170
Tactical Squad Flamer, H.Bolter 10 170
Tactical Squad Flamer, H.Bolter 10 170
Tactical Squad Flamer, H.Bolter 10 170
Tactical Squad Flamer, H.Bolter 10 170
Tactical Squad M.Gun, M.Melta 10 175

Elites

Fast Attack
Assualt Marines P.Fist, 10 215
Assualt Marines P.Fist, 10 215

Heavy Support
Devastator Squad 4 x M.Launcher 10 230
Devastator Squad 3 x M.Launcher 10 215

Totals 101 2000

The list looks fun on paper, but as I said, I have yet to try it out. I think it would just be cool to run a full company of marines. It gives you shooting, scoring and assault so it should perform well. Plus the libby gives you some mobility and null zone is just awesome.

I put together a chaos assault horde list too, but this one is theoretical as well:

Chaos Horde 2000 Pts

HQ
Sorcerer MoS, Lash, M.Bombs 1 130

Troops
Chaos Marines Mark of Khorne, Flamer x 2, Champ, Fist 20 380
Chaos Marines Mark of Slanesh, Melta x 2, Champ, P.Weapon 20 380
Chaos Marines Mark of Nurgle, Plasma x 2, Champ, Fist 20 420
Chaos Marines Mark of Tzeentch, Melta x 2, Champ, Fist 20 400
Lesser Daemons 5 65

Elites

Fast Attack

Heavy Support
Obliterator 1 75
Obliterator 1 75
Obliterator 1 75

Totals 89 2000

That is a more themed list, running one of each mark, and prone to running away with a flubbed leadership test (psyker battle squads would be a serious PITA) but it would look awesome. You could run 100 MoCG marines instead which may honestly be better.

B. Templars Horde 2000pts
Unit Discription Size Cost
HQ
Emperor's Champion Accept Any Challenge 1 150
Marshal L.Claws, I.Halo, Frags, Krak 1 138

Troops
Crusader Squad Fist, M.Gun, 20 285
Crusader Squad Fist, M.Gun , 20 285
Crusader Squad Fist, M.Gun , 20 285
Crusader Squad Fist, M.Gun, 20 285
Crusader Squad Fist, M.Gun , 20 285
Crusader Squad Fist, M.Gun, 20 285

Elites

Fast Attack

Heavy Support

Totals 122 1998

That has the most bodies and with the marshal they don't have much chance to run away, but the least anti tank. Kind of a boring army to play too, I would imagine as it just runs forward of its own accord.

So anyway, those are some ideas. I think the marine foot horde is totally viable.

whitedragon wrote:

Not to mention prevalence of tank shocks and LD modifiers (Death Leaper, Psyker Battle Squads, Close Combat) can see a non fearless, non ATSKNF squad off the board with relative ease. Hell, CSM's have ccw's and bp's so you'd think they want to be in CC, which is bad since they aren't stubborn, fearless or ATSKNF. So no, IoCG CSM's are not a good fit for the horde army I don't think, and Cult Troops are too expensive, and Fabius Bile troops are expensive and burn an HQ slot.

Uhh, what?

ATSKNF will still have you running off the board. Tank shocks will be at ld 9 (SM) instead of ld10 (CSM), which is twice the odds for breaking. Deathleaper does nothing as its to a character, not a unit.

Shooting wise, CSM might as well be fearless. In CC there are few things theyre going to lose to. Id rather have CSM than tacticals in CC any day.

Seeing as how Im using a blood angels foot army now, Ive already had assault marines (and even a 265 point squad of veterans) run off the board in only a few games - something I never saw my CSMs do.

Night Lords:

ATSKNF allows you to regroup even if below half strength, and take No Retreat wounds in CC instead of being wiped out. For the purposed of this list, I believe that's more powerful than IoCG. All it takes is one bad LD roll at a crucial moment to really hurt.

Since I'm betting that I'll want to be closing in CC with this list, I'd rather have that type of security. Also, Space Wolves Grey Hunters can be spammed cheaper than CSM's.

whitedragon wrote: Running 60 PA Grey Knights is 1500 points, enough to add in a brother captain! You get the shrouding, alot of defense against psychic powers, storm bolters, and S6 all around!

Hahaha, that would be really fun to see. But one dreadnought or land raider would ruin your day.

Okay, maybe not a dreadnought, because I guess 10 PAGKs get about 1 or 2 glances on a dread, so you'd eventually wear it down. But land raider or Eldar grav tank spam would trump the GK's slow-moving str6.

I'm leaning more toward space wolves again. That's interesting that bloodclaws aren't really cheaper.

well, your analysis of BT is pretty accurate, but you don't really need grimauldus. they move forward when they are shot at, allowing them to close surprisingly fast.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

whitedragon wrote: Running 60 PA Grey Knights is 1500 points, enough to add in a brother captain! You get the shrouding, alot of defense against psychic powers, storm bolters, and S6 all around!

Hahaha, that would be really fun to see. But one dreadnought or land raider would ruin your day.

Okay, maybe not a dreadnought, because I guess 10 PAGKs get about 1 or 2 glances on a dread, so you'd eventually wear it down. But land raider or Eldar grav tank spam would trump the GK's slow-moving str6.

I'm leaning more toward space wolves again. That's interesting that bloodclaws aren't really cheaper.

You're right, the wolves are cheaper, but the Grey Knights have a certain, panache, about them wouldn't you say? Plus, if you're playing 2000 points, you can add a couple dreads or something and some terminators.

Exarch_Nektel wrote:well, your analysis of BT is pretty accurate, but you don't really need grimauldus. they move forward when they are shot at, allowing them to close surprisingly fast.

Grimaldus is there because he allows everyone within 6" to zeal. He stays in the center and brings the whole herd forward.

Ah, I didn't notice that, that is a great ability! He makes the whole mob super fast, that is a scary build. The biggest weakness is getting tarpitted into an Ironclad or Wraithlord, etc.


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I will assemble the rest of my Marine Company and see how they do. It will give me a reason to finally get them done! haha.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/288669.page

My Black World Templar Eaters list...