4th Edition D&D

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**Jester**

Ragnar's eyes are the color of television tuned to a dead channel. His first word was 01100110011101010110001101101011, and he took his senior trip with a little club called Screaming Fist.

I loved Dark Sun in college. Instead of dating, I became a Dragon. I think it was a good tradeoff.

**Phryxis**

It doesnt take a great mind to make great rules. It takes a great mind to create an immersive setting. This is where the money should be invested, not rehashing rules.

I think it takes a great mind to do anything great (and relatively mental). It's just a question of what kind of greatness. Optimally you'd have both great rules and great source. Which benefits you more probably depends most on what you're weak on.

This is going to be sweet.

It certainly COULD be very sweet. There're a ton of simple tools out there already, and more that could be made, all of which could speed play and make the game much more fun.

I am concerned about losing aspects of the game that make it what it is. Having the minis on the table, on the map, seeing the dice roll, that stuff matters to me for some reason.

When 3.0 came out, some guys were complaining that the arcane, messed up rules of 2nd ed were part of the charm. I thought they were nuts. I guess everyone has their tipping point on tradition. I play a ton of MMORPG hours, I'm fully versed in the power of computers in gaming, but I dunno. DnD needs pens and paper at the core of it.

**Reecius**

the color of television tuned to a dead channel

that is probably one of the best openin glines to any book i have read. and a great novel too.

I loved Dark Sun in college. Instead of dating, I became a Dragon. I think it was a good tradeoff.

Well, the Darksun dragons let you live for ever and become stupid powerful with wealth and fame.

College dating results in hazy memories of wild, indiscriminate night with a freshman, akward morning introductions, the walk of shame, and a case of the clap.

Hmmm, that is a tough call.

**dornsfist**

@ Mannahnin

I didn't know you still played D&D. A few guys from my high school group really want to start a campaign. We were kicking around the logistics. The first and third Sunday of every month seemed feasable. We would not use computers, but I would love to use miniatures on the big hex-mats. The one guy who said he would DM using his Forgotten Realms material is dragging his feet and the rest of us are chomping at the bit. I designed a campaign (AD&D 2nd edition based) that used Middle Earth as the setting about 10 years ago, but that is the last time we played. If this new edition is easier, I would like to get my hands on it to see if I can give it a whirl. I remember seeing the new books, I guess it is 3rd edition, and they seemed to change the rules dramatically. It looked like the d20 system was defunct and the stats were based on 100 scale. Unless I am mistaken, it has been a while since I read any D&D material. How many people are in your group?

**Jezrael**

At Jester:

That is an interesting quote. What is the book?

**malfred**

Neuromancer. Well, everything except the funny bits.

**ChairmanMao**

Posted By Mannahnin on 08/20/2007 6:13 AM
I haven't heard of any, but the 3rd ed rules are easily robust enough (and psionics much better developed) to handle the campaign setting. The one thing the DM might need to do is create a prestige class for the Defiler to represent its faster caster progression.

http://www.athas.org/

A little clunky but there's some great material for 3.0 and 3.5 Dark Sun games.

**two heads talking**

Posted By syr8766 on 08/19/2007 6:28 PM
My D&D group may not even move to 4th. If we do, I've at least got a few months to sell my books off on ebay.

Shmucks.

hell, i called it good at 2nd edition. I found anything after that was just more of the same and really didn't do anything but convolute the game with silly specializations and uneeded traits.

gary gygax last had his input in 2nd edition. when he sold it off, D&D died for me. too much of the blue skinned elf with strength and abilities of a half ogre and the size of a halfling, who could breath fire and phase through walls and breath underwater. that kinda crap killed D&D.. half-orc were a stretch, half-ogres, half=giants, and half-dragons went too far.

**stonefox**

that kinda crap killed D&D.. half-orc were a stretch, half-ogres, half=giants, and half-dragons went too far.

But without all those half-monsters, where will all the furries turn to in order to get their kicks? Oh and don't ask what a furry is if you don't know.

**Mannahnin**

Nothing killed D&D. 3rd edition brought it back from a pretty moribund state, though.

I started with the red-box Basic D&D set, so I remember the simpler rules, and some of the template weirdness (half-dragons, etc) is not to my taste, but that's the beauty of playing an RPG. The DM decides what fits in his campaign. If you don't like something, you don't have to use it. It's not like a competitive tournament game where you're always going to be playing against strangers whose idea of what fits in the game doesn't mesh with yours.

3rd edition (and later) has done a much better job of balancing the classes and systems, and of giving players tactical options in combat. The flanking and "five foot step" systems are classic examples. They lead to very dynamic combats, with characters constantly moving around, jockeying for position and advantage. I loved 1st and 2nd edition D&D/AD&D, but the revised editions are just better games. Of course, with a roleplaying game you never really *need* a good game engine. Roleplaying is the most important part, and you need almost no rules at all to do that.

**Kilkrazy**

I eagerly anticipate some amusing changes in The Order Of The Stick.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html

**akira5665**

Boyz,

I used to love D&D. Then I turned 12. lol

Seriously though, the moment G.Gygax sold D&D, it really was a business decision, and the game developed along those lines. $$$$ needed to keep rolling in! What it really gets down to is: Do you Role play or Roll play?

The books count for naught, 1st, 2nd, 3rd,4th Ed are all just re-hashes of the saqme concept, Medi-eval Fantasy world. The only thing that makes for a great game are the players & GM, the books basically should be used as Character sheet paper-weights. The only limitation is the imagination of those playing/GM'ing.

Just my 2 cents worth, as I have been the GM of a gaming group for the last 20-odd years, we seem to have alot of fun with VERY few complaints.

**Asmodai**

A strong system reinforces the roleplaying, and adds depth and texture to the game. A poor system gets in the way of that.

System does matter a great deal to the over all play experience, the same as with GW games.

Dogs in the Vineyard and Sorcerer are both good RPG's to look at if you want to see how changing the system can effect the interaction and story development at the table.

Personally, I'm looking forward to D&D 4. From the previews it looks like they fixed most of my problems with 3.X (which in turn dramatically improved upon 2.X).

**two heads talking**

Posted By Mannahnin on 08/21/2007 8:30 AM
Nothing killed D&D. 3rd edition brought it back from a pretty moribund state, though.

in my opinion, i humbly disagree. the redundant rules, the over expouding on combat etc. sure you can keep dumping money into new rule books and pick and chose what you want. That's an option. As with GW, it's a financial decision that change must be made to earn money.

In fact i think I remember seeing a WOC person quoted as saying, there must be constant change in order to keep money coming in.

for me, D&D stopped being fun when it was overweighted with specializations and 765 handbooks of theives and mages and all that. The expense wasn't worth the information in the books. So having said that, I stayed with what was fun and played 2nd edition exclusively. then once I tried 3.5. and remembered why i played 2nd edition. for me it was the most fun.

**Asmodai**

Posted By two heads talking on 08/22/2007 1:37 PM

for me, D&D stopped being fun when it was overweighted with specializations and 765 handbooks of theives and mages and all that. The expense wasn't worth the information in the books.

So 1981 then?

AD&D 2e had:

The Complete Thief's Handbook
The Complete Wizard's Handbook
The Complete Fighter's Handbook
The Complete Paladin's Handbook
The Complete Druid's Handbook
The Complete Priest's Handbook
The Complete Bard's Handbook
The Complete Ranger's Handbook
The Complete Psionics Handbook
The Complete Ninja's Handbook
--- All full of unbalanced kits for your inner power gamer

The Complete Book of Humanoids
The Complete Book of Gnomes & Halflings
The Complete Book of Elves
The Complete Book of Dwarves
--- See above

Arms & Equipment Guide (full of new better weapons to cheese out your characters)
Book of Artifacts (better magic items)
Tome of Magic (better spells)

Several dozen setting specific books (e.g. Wizards & Rogues of the Realms) full of more unbalanced kits.

The whole Skills & Powers series which allowed power-gaming and cheesing to an extent never seen before nor since.

Oh, I'm almost forget the Priest and Wizard spell decks - great if you want your game to play like a CCG.

Oh, on that topic the Encyclopedias each consisting of 6-8 volumes of more powerful Wizard/Cleric spells or magic items.

Seriously, one of the great things about D&D 3.X is that is discarded all the unbalanced, overpowered or just plain silly junk that had been bogging AD&D down for a decade. You might want a lens cleaner to get that rose-tint out of your glasses.

**malfred**

People are probably including open license d20 stuff into their idea of what supplements were.

**Janthkin**

Oh, on that topic the Encyclopedias each consisting of 6-8 volumes of more powerful Wizard/Cleric spells or magic items.

Funny thing? The Encyclopedia Magica killed TSR. Every complete set sold lost them $5 - pretty color, ribbons, etc.

Encyclopida Magica was 4 volumes; the Wizards Spell Compendium was 4 volumes; the Clerics was 3. I have them all, and use them as inspiration for both spells and plots.

**Jester**

Posted By Asmodai on 08/22/2007 1:56 PM

Posted By two heads talking on 08/22/2007 1:37 PM

for me, D&D stopped being fun when it was overweighted with specializations and 765 handbooks of theives and mages and all that. The expense wasn't worth the information in the books.

So 1981 then?

AD&D 2e had:

The Complete Thief's Handbook
The Complete Wizard's Handbook
The Complete Fighter's Handbook
The Complete Paladin's Handbook
The Complete Druid's Handbook
The Complete Priest's Handbook
The Complete Bard's Handbook
The Complete Ranger's Handbook
The Complete Psionics Handbook
The Complete Ninja's Handbook
--- All full of unbalanced kits for your inner power gamer

The Complete Book of Humanoids
The Complete Book of Gnomes & Halflings
The Complete Book of Elves
The Complete Book of Dwarves
--- See above

Arms & Equipment Guide (full of new better weapons to cheese out your characters)
Book of Artifacts (better magic items)
Tome of Magic (better spells)

Several dozen setting specific books (e.g. Wizards & Rogues of the Realms) full of more unbalanced kits.

The whole Skills & Powers series which allowed power-gaming and cheesing to an extent never seen before nor since.

Oh, I'm almost forget the Priest and Wizard spell decks - great if you want your game to play like a CCG.

Oh, on that topic the Encyclopedias each consisting of 6-8 volumes of more powerful Wizard/Cleric spells or magic items.

Seriously, one of the great things about D&D 3.X is that is discarded all the unbalanced, overpowered or just plain silly junk that had been bogging AD&D down for a decade. You might want a lens cleaner to get that rose-tint out of your glasses.

I own all those books.

**Pariah Press**

LOL.

Well, D20 OGL stuff aside, there are still an absurd number of supplements for 3rd/3.5 edition. Of course, I've been playing for years with just the three core books (+ and old copy of Temple of Elemental Evil for my most recent campaign) and have had a blast. I'm pretty happy with 3rd edition, though some of the mechanics are too clunky to bother with in the heat of combat.

As far as 3rd edition's combat emphasis goes, I see it as an attempt to be true to Gary Gygax's original conception of D&D. His games are run more like a wargame than most RPG's are run these days.

**carmachu**

Thats why 2nd edition is the best

You have been SO sniffing the modeling glue.

Yes 2nd had alot of material, but best? Oh hell no.......it had the most bloat, thats for sure....

**two heads talking**

Posted By Asmodai on 08/22/2007 1:56 PM

Posted By two heads talking on 08/22/2007 1:37 PM

for me, D&D stopped being fun when it was overweighted with specializations and 765 handbooks of theives and mages and all that. The expense wasn't worth the information in the books.

So 1981 then?

AD&D 2e had:

The Complete Thief's Handbook
The Complete Wizard's Handbook
The Complete Fighter's Handbook
The Complete Paladin's Handbook
The Complete Druid's Handbook
The Complete Priest's Handbook
The Complete Bard's Handbook
The Complete Ranger's Handbook
The Complete Psionics Handbook
The Complete Ninja's Handbook
--- All full of unbalanced kits for your inner power gamer

The Complete Book of Humanoids
The Complete Book of Gnomes & Halflings
The Complete Book of Elves
The Complete Book of Dwarves
--- See above

Arms & Equipment Guide (full of new better weapons to cheese out your characters)
Book of Artifacts (better magic items)
Tome of Magic (better spells)

Several dozen setting specific books (e.g. Wizards & Rogues of the Realms) full of more unbalanced kits.

The whole Skills & Powers series which allowed power-gaming and cheesing to an extent never seen before nor since.

Oh, I'm almost forget the Priest and Wizard spell decks - great if you want your game to play like a CCG.

Oh, on that topic the Encyclopedias each consisting of 6-8 volumes of more powerful Wizard/Cleric spells or magic items.

Seriously, one of the great things about D&D 3.X is that is discarded all the unbalanced, overpowered or just plain silly junk that had been bogging AD&D down for a decade. You might want a lens cleaner to get that rose-tint out of your glasses.

yeah when those books started coming out. i put it all away. i looked at them, some of the ideas were cool. but they were all overloaded.. my glasses are the tint I like them thank you. I don't expect everyone to share my opinion, nor my sentiment. rather than act like you are better than someone with the rose color comment, just accept that some people might not agree with you.. it's ok not to agree. it's not okay to be an asshat just because you disagree.

**carmachu**

rather than act like you are better than someone with the rose color comment, just accept that some people might not agree with you.. it's ok not to agree. it's not okay to be an asshat just because you disagree.

Well, no. While its ok to disagree.....the reasons you gave were wrong, because second ed had the same bloat you complained about in 3.X edition.

**Sarigar**

4th Edition may be interesting to check out for those who haven't played in over a decade. I got out when 2nd edition began putting out all the specialized books. As a DM, it just felt like it was too much to keep up with.

I guess I'm just old now. I enjoyed playing with the PHB, DMG, MM1 and Unearthed Arcana. The modules contained most of what I needed to play.

But, I do give credit to WotC. I did read through the 3rd edtion main books and the game mechanics seem to be so much smoother than previous incarnations. I would think 4th edition would be further improvements for better gameplay.

For someone who hasn't played RPG's in over a decade, 4th edition has me wondering if I should take a break from 40K for awhile.

**Da Boss**

Hmmm. Well, all my favourite role playing experiences so far have come from playing with sound people in enjoyable settings. A ravenloft game in the excellent Swords and Sorcery setting was fantastic and we still talk about it fondly 2 years on. When I started running it, I'd never played D'n'D and learned the rules as I went along. That definitely showed me that you can have fun with minimal rules and props if the setting is good. We used the Athas.org stuff to run a Darksun game that was fantastic. I don't like Forgotten Realms (too high magic and elf ridden thanks), but I really enjoyed my stint in Eberron. I'm hoping they get back to producing some excellent background stuff, those Gazetteers for Ravenloft were amazing, and OGL for those who hate it.
I've been playing D'n'D for 5 years though, and I've never bought a book.
These days I do use the various props like battle maps and minis, it clarrifys and speeds up combat.
And gives me reasons to sculpt and paint things I would not otherwise.

So really, 4th ed is a blip for me- if it's amazingly good and they release some excellent adventures and settings, I might pick it up. But if it's just books of crunch and "skill trees" I'll ignore it and probably head off into some other system.

**two heads talking**

Posted By Sarigar on 08/23/2007 8:19 AM
4th Edition may be interesting to check out for those who haven't played in over a decade. I got out when 2nd edition began putting out all the specialized books. As a DM, it just felt like it was too much to keep up with.

I guess I'm just old now. I enjoyed playing with the PHB, DMG, MM1 and Unearthed Arcana. The modules contained most of what I needed to play.

that's why i stopped at 2nd edition too, in fact I think I mentioned that before (carmachu, if you care to reread my posts you might see that).. and then gary turning it over to wotc just spoiled the already aging milk.

it's fine carm, we hardly see eye to eye, I didn't really expect to see eye to eye with you here. I hated bloat. i hated it in 2nd edition thus why i got out) and 3rd edition, my reasons were valid carm, you just missed the forest through the trees i guess.

**Pariah Press**

The thing is, you can just ignore the bloat. Pretend it doesn't exist. Forbid your players from using any of it, and you're all set. I ignore all non-core books for D&D.

Now Rifts... Rifts is another matter. That has some very, very fun bloat!