Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Here's a post I'm copying that I wrote elsewhere to someone about why they should take cybork bodies off their nobs.
-----------------------------
Give them all 'Eavy armor, and they have a 4+ armor and 4+ Feel no pain. However, I would urge you to drop cybork bodies. I would posit that an intelligent ork player will pretty much never be in a situation to *need* a 5+ invulnerable save...here's why. Your nobs start in a battlewagon and need no saves. As they trundle and bounce their way up the field, they're in an AV14 front armor vehicle, which is getting 4+ cover saves from the Big Mek with the KFF who is in 6", and the sides of the battlewagon are protected by other battlewagons or trukks, meaning that there are no side armor shots against you. If you work out a lascannon shot; between the rolls to hit, glance/penetrate, cover save, damage chart....the chances of a lascannon shot meaningfully affecting you are less than 3%. Melta doesn't really matter. On Turn2+, you have a 27" assault range, and if someone meltas you, you're in range to assault anyway. So your Nobs are in a vehicle until it either A.) gets blown up or B.) You voluntarily get out to assault.

If A Happens, you get 4+ armor saves. The battlewagon either gets wrecked or exploded. If its exploded you're in 4+ cover from the wreckage and crater, and if its destroyed, you can deploy behind and around it to give yourself either 4+ cover or denied visibility. Either way, you have at worst a 4+ save. Beyond that, as you work to get into close combat you can either move from cover to cover, or dump someone less important out of their vehicle and put the nobs into it. You STILL have no need of a 5+ invulnerable save.

That just leaves close combat. With a 27" assault range, YOU decide what to assault. Since you have Ghazghkull and burnas to deal with really scary things that ignore armor saves, you can spend your Nobs wisely on MEQs and things without massed powerweapons. Just no reason to take it on this unit in a mechanized list.
--------------------------------

In answer to Davicus...

I can't really answer your question. My combination of life experiences, tactical education, military background, general competency, and army-building skills are unique to me. I've tabled someone playing a Tau list with my orks, then switched army lists on the spot (me playing his, and him playing mine) and tabled him again. Was he that bad? Am I that good? Are the army lists unbalanced? There's a lot that goes into it.

Short of playing against myself, Tau vs Orks, which would be incredibly boring....I'm not sure how I'd figure this out.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Orkish wrote:

Haha, much like the story of the seller who CLAIMS that his sword can pierce through the toughest shield in the world and his shield can ward off the finest sword in the world. He has no answer when someone ask what happens when his sword go against his shield.

That's actually a pretty horrible analogy. I'm not positing that orks are the finest attackers, and Tau the finest defenders...or that orks are the best army and that Tau are the best army...

Dashofpepper wrote:I would posit that an intelligent ork player will pretty much never be in a situation to *need* a 5+ invulnerable save

...hell, I think your right. I've been running this nobz mob for a while now, only twice (maybe three times) in their entire game history have I felt like they 'needed' an invulnerable save (and I wish I could get one that was better than 5+ )

The first time was when I charged into a Hive Tyrant, actually I charged into two, but I had little to fear in the end, the nobz just ended up soaking in wounds. (they killed two hive tyrants in this way, though it should be noted that in an earlier game, a hive tyrant walked up to my nobz, waved hi, then charged them and ate them all with his sweeping advance...but he charged in with more than just the tyrant, forcing me to divide my PK attacks around...Oh, and there was a godfex wandering into that combat too...yeah I made mistakes in that game.)

The second time was when the nobz decided they were going to try and wreck a land raider....which contained 5 TH/SS terminators....OH and Lysander.....yeah, that didn't end well. The 5+ invulnerable save didn't even help, of the saves I was called to make, I failed most of them. The nobz later ran off the board.

Edit: So, I would conclude that an UNintelligent (or inexperienced...or both) ork player might feel like he needs a 5+ invulnerable save, but really doesn't, just needs better tactics.

.

Finally I thought I was never going to get through all of peppers post...

I recently played against a Tau player and this is what I found effective...

Fast Attack: Will probably do very little damage as it will be their job to chase vehicles around... that said, Turbo boost toward the vehicle, they will run away if they see Deff Koptas or Bikes within 18"... They normally do not shoot at something with a 3+ cover save... if they do, great they are not hitting the horde, who is going to do the most damage.

Troops: Need to stick together... Tau are tricky and fast, fast, fast. Like eldar they can wipe a unit of 30 boyz if they are isolated.

Stealth suits: do not fall for the trap of chasing these guys with a mob of orks, you will not catch them... just pick up your casualties and move on...

Stick together! if you are going to advance, make a pincer attack so they cannot redeploy somewhere else. Remember to stick together! Fast attack can handle one side of the board, troops up the middle and Lootas or Big gunz on the other side of the board. Even if it looks like your lootas are not doing anything on one side of the board, do not despair. They are taking away room from the tau player to maneuver...

Crisis Suits: Slightly tougher than you think... with bodyguards/ shield drones/ FNP he only wants to tie you up... My friend used pairs of Cirsis suits armed with detonators because it would drop a template when my guys were bunched up... he could get away with this because a mob of 30 is tough enough to beat a pair of suits but if they are built right not killy enough to wipe it...

Cover saves: Sometimes you will get them... sometimes you won't... plan for squads of 30 to die if shot at... if they live then use them to give 4+ cover saves to the orks behind them and/or assault shooty squads.

To answer why you put Lootas in battlewagons, they are quite fragile at T4 and W1 with only a 6+ armor save... their low numbers mean lose a few and you lose the squad. Putting them in a 14/12/10 makes them very secure.

Seriously dude, do not provoke the pepper... he may look like a cat with a watermelon helmet and sound like a giggling grot but he is a cat with a watermelon helmet who sounds like a giggling grot that will crush you with pure win...

Orkish wrote:You have posted in such a way that your ork list is the finest ork list and your Tau gunline is the finest defender/shooty list

No he didn't. And even if he did, there are way too many variables to simply say "zomgorkswillwin".

My advice is to take the cybork for the Nobz. Everyone I play against has at least two or three ranged weapons that will instakill nobz; in addition you'll get instakilled by powerfists, thunderhammers, etc. in close combat. Assume your opponent is as intelligent as you and will do everything they can to deny you a turn 2 assualt or present you with nothing but vehicles to assault T2 which means you'll get shot to gak after you wreck or explode the vehicle.

olympia wrote:My advice is to take the cybork for the Nobz. Everyone I play against has at least two or three ranged weapons that will instakill nobz; in addition you'll get instakilled by powerfists, thunderhammers, etc. in close combat. Assume your opponent is as intelligent as you and will do everything they can to deny you a turn 2 assualt or present you with nothing but vehicles to assault T2 which means you'll get shot to gak after you wreck or explode the vehicle.

Except that I addressed this above. Reasonable tactics will prevent your nobs from ever being in a position to be out in the open, out of cover, subject to being assaulted from a unit of terminators with powerfists, thunderhammers, etc. The high strength, low AP weaponry is even easier to answer (again, see above), that you will pretty much always have better than a 5+ invulnerable save.

Modquisition on.
No more personal attacks on this thread gentlemen. Rule #1 of Dakka is Be Polite. Lets remember that lest I am allowed to get nasty.

Dashofpepper wrote: Reasonable tactics will prevent your nobs from ever being in a position to be out in the open, out of cover, subject to being assaulted from a unit of terminators with powerfists, thunderhammers, etc. The high strength, low AP weaponry is even easier to answer (again, see above), that you will pretty much always have better than a 5+ invulnerable save.

Things sometimes don't go your way. You could find yourself, as I recently did, in a tournament with tables deficient in terrain; an IG gunline could steal the initiative and pop your nob wagon on the first turn, as recently happened to me; you could, as recently happened to me, route Eldrard and a seer council in close combat and then roll a 1 for consolidation leaving your nobz exposed to the two fire prisms who fly over intervening models to get LOS, etc... I have found cybork bodies to be very useful in all of my tournament games. With diversified nobz you are basically pinning your hope, for the most part, on the performance of that unit. For 50 points cybork bodies are a nice bit of insurance.

I almost couldnt believe it when I saw this. What? No Cybork bodies?

Cybork bodies is a must for Nobz, and is one of the most cost efficient upgrade - when you take painboy, cyborks are 5 pts a piece.
Dash of Pepper, maybe you haven't played in major tournaments/environments (E.g. GT finals). Yes, reasonable tactics will save you from needing the 5+ invul. But when everyone is good and has reasonable tactics, your 'reasonable' tactics counts for nothing. You THINK your nobz will NEVER get assaulted by things which you want to avoid - but that's what you think.

Now the only question is - Is the upgrade cost efficient? At 5 points a piece, it's cost is definitely below the expected benefit it can bring. What is its expected benefit? 1/3 * 25-50 (point cost of a nob depending on upgrade) = 8.33 - 16.66 points. Granted not all the cybork will be at work ina single shooting/assault phase, so give it a discount depending on how optimistic you are against the attacks.

In fact, I would rather forgo the eavy armor for the cybork if i hav to choose. 4+/4+ versus 5+/4+, you are only better off by 8.33%. To save points, i normally only give half my troops Eavy armor, and then go on to equip the 2 groups (with and w/o Eavy) differently for wound allocation purpose.

Olympia and Davicus, everything you just listed is something that sounds like you could have avoided tactically.

-IG gunline popping your nob wagon first turn (you're now in 4+ cover, where a 5+ invul doesn't do you better), and the next turn, I presume they either hijacked a trukk or took someone elses' battlewagon.

-Tournaments deficient in terrain: So? If you're running a 600 point nob unit, I presume you're running a mechanized list, and presume you've got a KFF in there, meaning you've got 4+ cover for your vehicles and terrain only serves to make you have to take difficult terrain tests. Vehicles are mobile cover. When they're destroyed, they're static cover. Terrain shouldn't effect you or bother you.

-Initiative being stolen....crap happens. Trust in your KFF and that 4+ save. Crap *does* happen, and if they pop your battlewagon...you still don't need that 5+ invul save because you're in 4+ cover.

-Your nobs routed Eldrad and a seer council in close combat. Tactics man! If your nobs ran off from the rest of your army to go trounce a unit, regardless of how powerful it is, you've made a tactical blunder. Your entire army, vehicles and otherwise should be hot and heavy into a portion of your enemy; and you should have either had multiple units in Eldrad's vicinity mixing it up, or if Eldrad was off by himself as a bait unit, you should have left him alone and not played into your opponent's hands to be out in the open exposed.

-Davicus, telling me that I *think* my nobs will never assaulted if I don't want them to, but that's not true....that's a pointless statement. There *are* situations in which the nob squad in an army I'm playing can be assaulted. Those situations are extremely rare, rely on a series of events (usually involving an incredibly fast squad closing range to their transport, either popping their transport or having another unit popping it, then assaulting the nobs who dump out...but the range and combination of things required to do that are exceedingly rare. Aside from that, their risk of being assaulted comes from being counter-assaulted after wiping the floor with something. I can't speak for you, or how you play....but when my nobs mix it up in combat, my entire army is right there, in close confines, and not only is there a nob squad there, but there's also 3-4 trukk boy squads, freakin' Ghazghkull, maybe some Kommandos, some burna boyz....more boyz....when my combat ends and my charge is done, if my opponent wants to meander through my army to pick a fight with my toughest unit...I welcome it. They'll probably live through the turn, so that all my SUPPORTING units can pile into the back of the assaulters and end them.

Honestly, the situations you two have described are arrived at for one or a combination of reasons: 1) Poor planning 2) Bad luck 3) Poor planning 4) Bad tactics.

Situations 1, 3, and 4 can be avoided. Bad luck sucks, but I choose not to base my army-list decisions on what I think good or bad luck might bring to the table.

Dashofpepper, you present a classic min/max argument. Davicus and I are saying that based on our real experience in competitive tournaments we prefer to take cybork bodies. The OP can decide which advice they want to follow.

Cybork bodies for the win. A 5+ inv does come in handy because inevitably you will find yourself in a situation where you will need it.

olympia wrote:Dashofpepper, you present a classic min/max argument. Davicus and I are saying that based on our real experience in competitive tournaments we prefer to take cybork bodies. The OP can decide which advice they want to follow.

Fair enough. Based on my real experience in competitive tournaments, I prefer not to take cybork bodies.

Truth be told though, as my army has evolved to present me the best capabilities of taking on anything I come up against, I've actually....evolved past a nob squad....is the best way to put it. While its a good unit, and does its job very well, I don't use it anymore.

The Cybork on the nobz is 5+, but in the very same battlewagon as the nobz, I sit a KFF Big Mek. He normally doesn't do anything but give the vehicle a save for being 'obscured' but then again, he also piles out into combat with the rest of the nobz (now he and the warboss have cyborks, to try and ward off the inevitable power fist someone is going to throw at them.) But I have found it sometimes necessary to dodge fire.

Example: I just finished a combat with a bunch of plauge marines....on my turn, now my opponent lines up a vindicator to shoot at my nobs with a demolisher cannon. So, I go-to-ground, for not 5+ cover, but 4+! I can't move next turn, but the mission is KP, I'll make him come after me. In my case, I'm already under a 5+ save at range which I can change into a 4+ if I really have to, so the cybork has no point for me....though, it comes in handy for mix/matching equipment

Dashofpepper wrote:

olympia wrote:Dashofpepper, you present a classic min/max argument. Davicus and I are saying that based on our real experience in competitive tournaments we prefer to take cybork bodies. The OP can decide which advice they want to follow.

Fair enough. Based on my real experience in competitive tournaments, I prefer not to take cybork bodies.

Truth be told though, as my army has evolved to present me the best capabilities of taking on anything I come up against, I've actually....evolved past a nob squad....is the best way to put it. While its a good unit, and does its job very well, I don't use it anymore.

Not being offensive, but you have only been to local tournaments, which I personally dont think is very competitive. I heard you went to Ard Boyz? But don't think you were in the finals. Well, you painted the scenarios very beautifully up there in your post (I could easily do it the other way - but sorry abit sleepy here), but all I can tell you is, everyone else in the finals is probably as smart or smarter than you in tactics. I hate to prove my point by painting scenarios in forums because whatever scenarios we can paint here are hardly exhaustive. For E.g. - your battlewagon gets stunned/immobilized - should you disembark? It depends on the army (shooty or assault, marines or IG) you are facing against, and how far you are from the opponent. If you should disembark, where should you disembark?

If you I don't go to tournaments thinking I am the dumbest or smartest player out there. But I place great emphasis on point efficiency of upgrades.

starbomber, in most kill point missions I want my nobz to be killing things not going to ground. I suppose if I was already way ahead in KPs I would do it.

olympia wrote:starbomber, in most kill point missions I want my nobz to be killing things not going to ground. I suppose if I was already way ahead in KPs I would do it.

And I was ahead in KPs, and I wanted it to stay that way.

Even if I was ahead in KPs, i personally would not go to ground with my Nobz. If I am spending few hundred points on my nob squad, i want them to be wrecking havoc. Even for my boyz, i dun remember them going to ground very often.

On a side note, my most competitive ork list do not have a nob squad

Davicus wrote:

Not being offensive, but you have only been to local tournaments...

This isn't the thread for me to post about how awesome I am, or what GT winners I table, or about 'Ard Boyz...(I was at semi-finals for half an hour, and I left before the first game was even properly underway...and I had a significant advantage on the table when I did)....I realize, and have posted many a times that I'm in a small pond.

For the OP: Try it both ways. Use some of the tactics that I've outlined, play your nobs as a central piece in your army, not a standalone unit, and pay close attention to what happens to them. If you feel that they need 5+ invulnerable saves, go for it. If you don't find it being very useful....don't take it.

There are good points on both sides.

As another ork player, let me chime in. I (sometimes) run nob bikers, who have less use for cybork bodies thanks to the natural cover save. Cybork bodies are just another wargear choice to mix up for wound allocation. I take 2 maybe 3 cyborks total (out of 11 models) solely for the "gak happens" scenario when you run into random crap. They take the unsaveable wounds, try to spare the rest of the unit. That's usually been more than enough. If I'm taking multiple turns of only invulnerable saves, I've screwed up and it's not the orks' fault (nor their responsibility for bailing me out with luck).

With mech orks, I expect to be able to dictate the action with my speed and unit placement. The KFF is there to assist everyone. Yes, they can steal the initiative. Yes, you can just get some bad luck. But sound tactics are better than luck and are more reliable than dice. The best players are the ones who minimize the role of luck/dice in this game. That means tactics and positioning, that means strategy (army lists and battle plans), that means discipline and execution by sticking to the battle plan and adapting only as necessary to meet the demands of the opponent and table situation.

In that light, cyborking seems too contingency based and not reliable, and thus not as strategic. Cyborking the whole unit is overkill, even if my nobs weren't bikers. That being said, play how you want, but I can usually find a better use for 40 or so points.

Oh, and BTW, the cat's hat is clearly a lime, not a watermelon.

I think dash and leper must only play against short-bus riders.

QuietOrkmi wrote:Crisis Suits: Slightly tougher than you think... with bodyguards/ shield drones/ FNP he only wants to tie you up... My friend used pairs of Cirsis suits armed with detonators because it would drop a template when my guys were bunched up... he could get away with this because a mob of 30 is tough enough to beat a pair of suits but if they are built right not killy enough to wipe it.

Dude, somebody's cheating you; the detonator can only put on 1 model in the entire army; it's special issue. The same with the Airbursting fragmentation projector (AFP). Those are the only area affect weapons (other than flamers) that crisis suits have access to. The only other burst weapon we have is submunitions from a hammerhead.

olympia wrote:I think dash and leper must only play against short-bus riders.

Didn't we JUST have the modquisition in here telling us not to do this?

I think Dash has been fairly reasonable, saying "play how you want, but this has worked for me." I tend to agree with the pro-cybork players, however, as crap happens and sometimes other players put you in bad situations. That and Heavy Flamers alone would be reason enough for me want to have some protection.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

olympia wrote:I think dash and leper must only play against short-bus riders.

Didn't we JUST have the modquisition in here telling us not to do this?

Eh, doesn't bother me at all. A compelling counter argument would be preferable to an attempted insult, but he can think what he likes. The beauty of the game is that you can play it many ways and, in the circumstances you face, you can be right or wrong at any time. My regular competition includes three folks who won preliminaries and/or placed in the semifinals of 'Ard Boyz this past year, and a decent supporting cast beyond them, so I'm confident the games are at least average challenge. I'm always open to different tactics or points of view. I prefer my set up, he prefers his. Whoopty do.

True statement there. Olympia, does the fact that I haven't been to any GTs and leveled the competition make my thoughts on tactics somehow less meaningful than someone elses? The fact that your argument against sound tactical advice is petulant and offensive instead of anything remotely meaningful kind of sums up your ability to contribute here.

I'd prefer that you throw the gauntlet down and offer me a challenge with worthwhile stakes for a game of 40k; then we can find out if my tactical advice is as subpar as you think. I can only play the people available to me, and I travel a number of hours to participate in events. I haven't been to any GTs, but I've had a few games against some folks that frequent that circuit and do well at them, as well as having had the opportunity to play 2/3 of the semi-finalist placers at this year's 'Ard Boyz (tabling one and major victory against the other....but like I said, I left 20 minutes into the first round before my opponent and I even started shooting at each other...) I won't pretend that I table everyone every game without losing a model by any stretch of the imagination; I've had plenty of games that have been razor-thin for a lot of reasons; from terrain, to mission, to my own mistakes...to people making army lists specifically built to try defeating me.

Whatever combination of things that help me keep squeaking in victories in even those tight situations seems to be helpful on the forums here - I get a lot of PMs asking for help, and I've seen a distinct shift in the army lists and advice given about Ork lists based on my tactical campaign to improve the quality of Ork lists over the last year.

Perhaps you would find utility by offering advice counter to my own, explaining and justifying it rationally, and contribute to the dakka community. Heck, I'm always up for learning new things. I don't travel around to tournaments meeting strange people and tossing down on the tables because I covet the $20-100 first prize do you? I'm looking for challenges; for someone to take it to me so that I can learn more about how I play my army to avoid defeat the next time.

agnosto wrote:Dude, somebody's cheating you; the detonator can only put on 1 model in the entire army; it's special issue. The same with the Airbursting fragmentation projector (AFP). Those are the only area affect weapons (other than flamers) that crisis suits have access to. The only other burst weapon we have is submunitions from a hammerhead.

I did not mean for it to sound like both had it... He just allocated wounds by making the pair different and when I failed to wipe the unit he dropped a S8 Ap- template on my mob... We tweeked his list so that he no longer uses a team of two with a bonding knife. I think he is going to change his list to rely on the mobility aspect of tau by giving his fire warriors devilfishes and having his Battle suits deepstrike in on the otherside of the table. While relying heavily on the thing that lets him come in on a 2+ but only one unit...

Dash, here's your problem. Your entire argument boils down to this, "You have to be a moron to need cybork bodies." Given your arrogance it would help if you actually had some GT or 'Ard Boyz results to back up your talk. I'd love to hear the other side the story to the 'Ard Boyz debacle of yours as well.

Ork Tactics

lolwut?