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We can only hope!

And sweet big head on that avatar! Like the opposite of the Horus Heresy pinheads.

Homer

From the rulebook:

"Vect can be mounted upon: the dias of destruction...... xxx points"

from vects entry:

"Vect may ride to battle upon the dias of Destruction; a special raider dedicated transport with three dark lances and sophisticated force shields that give it armour 13 on all sides. the dias of Destruction must begin the game carrying nine models in addition to vect himself. other than this, it is treated exactly as a raider (see page 44)"

Page 44:

Transport: raiders have a transport capacity of 10

wargear: Dark lance

Special Rules: night Vision



that is it. period. no upgrades, no changing out dark lances for disintegrators for free (which if it was a raider you could, right?)

Sorry, but the dias is just that- the DIAS. Not a raider called a dias, it is a dias that has special rules and is treated like a raider. The upgrades are already there... 2 extra dark lances and armour 13. Asdrubael is an arcon, right? So can i give him a webway portal? no, I cannot, and you cannot give the dias flickerfields. It would also appear that vect cannot carry grotesques in his dias... at least at first!

The entry for the dias in the points section(HQ) has no upgrades available.... so there are no upgrades available!

To me it's clear that treated exactly like a raider includes the upgrades. I am coming to the conclusion YMDC is mostly opinion driven discussion now as is evident here.

I am coming to the conclusion some people post as if YMDC is mostly opinion driven discussion, now as is evident here:

BloodThirSTAR wrote:To me it's clear that treated exactly like a raider includes the upgrades.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:To me it's clear that treated exactly like a raider includes the upgrades. I am coming to the conclusion YMDC is mostly opinion driven discussion now as is evident here.

YDMC is inherently opinion driven. It's a place to discuss interpretations of what the codices and the main rulebook state to be the rules of 40k.

On topic...

After reading the specific rule, it would appear to me that the Dais cannot RAW take upgrades. (Saying nothing about RAI here). I would back this with the fact that when the rule states it is treated just like a Raider, it references p44 (the page entry for Raiders), not the Army List entry. This would seem to indicate that one is to treat the Dais as a Raider as it is presented on the given page. Furthermore, if you say that it can take upgrades like a normal Raider, then how many Dark Lances can it exchange for Disintegrators? The Dais has 3 Dark Lances, but the Army List entry only has an option for replacing "its Dark Lance," without any caveat for how to treat this in the event that the Raider has more than just the single one.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:To me it's clear that treated exactly like a raider includes the upgrades.

Yet you have no rules to back up your opinion.

I will just say it's funny you say that while I was quoting the rule. I'll leave it at and wait to see what the FAQ has to say.

You're told to look at page 44, treat it exactly the same in fact - where are the choices on page 44 that would allow you to take upgrades?

Sounds to me like it's a Raider, that costs 200 points, has armor 13 and three dark lances.

So why exactly can't it take upgrades? Raiders can take upgrades?

His Dias is not a special character, it's a transport. So that argument is out.

The rules on page 44 tell you where to find the cost of upgrades for a raider. If you say otherwise to me it sounds like the old argument that only Blood Angels terminators can take landraiders.

It says no such thing.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:The rules on page 44 tell you where to find the cost of upgrades for a raider. If you say otherwise to me it sounds like the old argument that only Blood Angels terminators can take landraiders.

It really doesnt. It tells you what a raider IS, but nothing more.

Making things up really doesnt help an argument. No upgrades as you have NO permission to do so.

Yeah, page 44 iirc doesn't even tell you which page the 'army list entry' is on.

Okay I made a mistake. Sorry.

Its very good to apologise, however not pretending rules exist in the first place would be the easier solution.

It makes it harder to listen to your argument, as you gain a bad reputation.

Not trying to be too harsh here, just saying it how it seems to myself, personally. Apologising IS a very good thing to do in this situation, many times people go silent when they ahve been shown to be wrong, so kudos to you

I have loaned out my codex. As soon as I get it back I'll have another say.

P1. Except where noted otherwise, the Dias of Destruction is 'treated exactly like a Raider'.
P2. None of the exceptions for the Dias of Destruction mention that it cannot take vehicle upgrades.
P3. Raiders can take Vehicle Upgrades.

C1. The Dias of Destruction can therefore take vehicle upgrades.


That right there is the logical argument that proves the Dias of Destruction can take vehicle upgrades. Anyone arguing to the contrary is adding additional restrictions to the rules that do not exist. When something is treated 'exactly like' something else that means it behaves exactly identical in every way except where specifically noted otherwise.

And the fact that the rules reference page 44 does not mean that is the ONLY place that rules for Raiders exist (that would be a logical fallacy), it simply means that is one page we know we need to reference for Raiders (but not necessarily the only one).

The fact is, the Dias of Destruction is treated exactly like a Raider (except where noted otherwise) when building a list, when playing the game and even after the game when looking at mission objectives/VPs, etc. There is no exception listed saying that it cannot purchase vehicle upgrades and a Raider can, therefore so can the Dias.



Just think of if you had students from classroom A who were allowed to purchase lunch from the Cafeteria. Then you have students from classroom B who are treated 'exactly like' students from classroom A except that they get out of school a half hour later.

Can the students from classroom B purchase lunch from the Cafeteria? The answer is unequivocally YES, because the students from classroom B are treated 'exactly like' the students from Classroom A. Since the students from Classroom A can purchase lunch from the Cafeteria, logic dictates that means so can the students from Classroom B.

yakface wrote:

P1. Except where noted otherwise, the Dias of Destruction is 'treated exactly like a Raider'.
P2. None of the exceptions for the Dias of Destruction mention that it cannot take vehicle upgrades.
P3. Raiders can take Vehicle Upgrades.

C1. The Dias of Destruction can therefore take vehicle upgrades.


That right there is the logical argument that proves the Dias of Destruction can take vehicle upgrades. Anyone arguing to the contrary is adding additional restrictions to the rules that do not exist. When something is treated 'exactly like' something else that means it behaves exactly identical in every way except where specifically noted otherwise.

And the fact that the rules reference page 44 does not mean that is the ONLY place that rules for Raiders exist (that would be a logical fallacy), it simply means that is one page we know we need to reference for Raiders (but not necessarily the only one).

The fact is, the Dias of Destruction is treated exactly like a Raider (except where noted otherwise) when building a list, when playing the game and even after the game when looking at mission objectives/VPs, etc. There is no exception listed saying that it cannot purchase vehicle upgrades and a Raider can, therefore so can the Dias.



Just think of if you had students from classroom A who were allowed to purchase lunch from the Cafeteria. Then you have students from classroom B who are treated 'exactly like' students from classroom A except that they get out of school a half hour later.

Can the students from classroom B purchase lunch from the Cafeteria? The answer is unequivocally YES, because the students from classroom B are treated 'exactly like' the students from Classroom A. Since the students from Classroom A can purchase lunch from the Cafeteria, logic dictates that means so can the students from Classroom B.

Same contentious wording that allows skimmers and bikers that can scout move to claim a cover save? (to provide a current accepted example?)

Or different?

Yakface, by your theory then, if I take the dias and the duke, i can change all dark lances to dissies, deep strike the dias, disembark the turn it deepstrikes and shoot the crap out of people, then with the added ram, have an armour 16 (possibly) vehicle start ramming all over the place. SWEET!

Sorry. No options for upgrades are available in the rules, so no upgrades are available.
Every other entry in the book has upgrades priced individually for the model. the dias does not. It is treated as a raider in terms of nightfight, skimmer, etc... but it most certainly is not a standard raider.

If yakface agrees I feel pretty darn good about it.

Yakface - so is it allowed to swap "the" dark lance for a dissie then? And it can be an AV16 ramming tank?

Sorry, not buying it - you are told the rules for a raider are on page X, on page X there are no upgrades. Page 44 DOES have the only rules not explicated in the rules for the Dais (such as the extra armour) meaning additional entires are not needed.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:If yakface agrees I feel pretty darn good about it.

And his opinion is more important because...

I have to side with nosferatu1001 here, for what it's worth. It's not clear though, I will admit that.

O Rly ?

Anglacon wrote:Yakface, by your theory then, if I take the dias and the duke, i can change all dark lances to dissies, deep strike the dias, disembark the turn it deepstrikes and shoot the crap out of people, then with the added ram, have an armour 16 (possibly) vehicle start ramming all over the place. SWEET!

Sorry. No options for upgrades are available in the rules, so no upgrades are available.
Every other entry in the book has upgrades priced individually for the model. the dias does not. It is treated as a raider in terms of nightfight, skimmer, etc... but it most certainly is not a standard raider.

Oh ok, so as far as you're concerned, the raider only gets what you think is fair? But not everything?

By your logic, why does it even get NightFight, Skimmer, etc? Can you clearly explain why it counts as enough of a Raider to gain keywords, but doing anything else a Raider can do is out of the question?

When you start bringing in opinion based bias ie: (It would just be UNFAIR for it to have this this and this), you know your argument doesn't have anything behind it.

I don't think people are really paying attention to his whole entry.

To get a Dias, blinged up, you have to Buy Vect (~200), Dias (~200), 9 members of his "court" or "retinue" (100), Handful of upgrades (5+5+5+10+10) etc.

Big bad ramming Vect, with his armor 13 and three lances he can't shoot when moving over 6 inches costs in the realm of 550-600 points.

No but really, without saying "because I said so or it's unfair", explain to me why the Raider can even get Nightfight, and skimmer? From all the other side's logic, I'm getting the sense they are just picking and choosing just exactly how the Raider resembles a Raider. It either can take upgrades, swap it's lance, and comes with a few rules or it's not a Raider.

Doesn't the dais point us to the page 44, that is the page that describes the raider?

That could explain why it would have "Skimmer" and "Night Vision" without getting the chance on the upgrades.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yakface - so is it allowed to swap "the" dark lance for a dissie then? And it can be an AV16 ramming tank?

Sorry, not buying it - you are told the rules for a raider are on page X, on page X there are no upgrades. Page 44 DOES have the only rules not explicated in the rules for the Dais (such as the extra armour) meaning additional entires are not needed.

You are also told about "special" rules in the DE codex and not "USR's".

Does half the book also not work now? Plasma grenades not being plasma grenades?

Gwar! wrote:

BloodThirSTAR wrote:If yakface agrees I feel pretty darn good about it.

And his opinion is more important because...

And your opinion is more important because...?

He has a solid opinion.

jp400 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

BloodThirSTAR wrote:If yakface agrees I feel pretty darn good about it.

And his opinion is more important because...

And your opinion is more important because...?

He has a solid opinion.

I never said mine was important at all.

I am saying that "OMFG YAKFACE DONE WENT AND SAID IT" is not a reason to agree with one argument over another.

Gwar you often act like your opinion is important. I'm just saying mate...

BloodThirSTAR wrote:Gwar you often act like your opinion is important. I'm just saying mate...

My opinion is no more important than anyone else on this forum.

I just happen to be right when it comes to the RaW 99% of the time, as I answer questions without emotional bias.

1% of the time I am either drunk or tired and make a mistake, which I quickly rectify.