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 cowmonaut wrote:
RAW, an Access Point is not a Fire Point. So you cannot "shoot through the door". You are misunderstanding the rules.

Heck, from a fluff perspective it wouldn't make sense to do so since the door of a bunker/bastion is supposed to be secured during combat. Can't do that if you left it open to fire out of.

He's not talking about the door. he's talking about the bottom sections that have an extra FP. There isn't an extra fire point on the door side, which is what he's saying.

I've played against plenty of bastions. Several folks that I game with seem to love them for reasons that no one can explain. I shoot them with Medusas, or multimeltas, or lascannons, or pummel them with meltabombs and meltaguns, or assault them with dreadnoughts.

Why? Because they're in the way. They're sheltering units that are impeding my path to victory, so to get at the gooey inside, I crack open the building. AV14's strength isn't the AV being high, it's the meta shifting away from the things that crack it open.

Bastions are counter-meta, but when you're planning for the counter-meta because you enjoy playing counter-meta armies and see how well they work

I'd be more than happy to let you crack my bastion while the rest of my units are eating your face.

Essentially you are then spending 75 points to turn a squad into an immobile AV14 vehicle at the cost of your emplacement slot.

So your ~220 point broadside team is now ~300 points. Then you throw a quad gun on it and stick a squad on top and its 450+ points. AV14 may be pretty tough, but not when its 450 points. This is the trap of the bastion. Sticking a lot of points into one and thinking its going to protect your units.

For a 6 flier list, sure, a bastion may be useful, but who plays a 6 flier list anymore? You arent playing for fun, because no one has fun vs 6 flier lists and most would refuse to play that. In tourney play 6 flier lists are a joke. IG flier spam sans FW lacks anti-horde. Cron saucer spam is entirely ineffective vs most MCs and still have problems vs tau. With FW thrown in both armies become significantly less threatening as skyfire becomes more common.

With the new eldar codex, you have even another problem. Try and see what happens when 5 D-scythe wraithguard flamer your 3 broadside bastion. 5d6 S4 AP2 Distort hits on them and 5 distort hits looking for 6s to pen the bastion. With the popular eldar list being 4+WS with 4+ squads of 5 man wraithguard with d-scythes, have fun castling up.

Then blast templates. Artillery love bastions. Not only do you hit the roof, but also the bastion. Since its not ruins, its 1 level so i dont have to worry about scattering off and not hurting anything. Now i can just shoot manticores at those people manning the quad gun and laugh as my Ord S10 pens and does a silly number of hits on the guys inside the bastion. One direct manticore hit and most of that 450 point bastion is gone.

 zephoid wrote:
Essentially you are then spending 75 points to turn a squad into an immobile AV14 vehicle at the cost of your emplacement slot.

So your ~220 point broadside team is now ~300 points. Then you throw a quad gun on it and stick a squad on top and its 450+ points. AV14 may be pretty tough, but not when its 450 points. This is the trap of the bastion. Sticking a lot of points into one and thinking its going to protect your units.

Wow. This is just hinky thinking. You're paying 125 for a Bastion and Quad-gun. Your broadsides aren't required to stay in it or even to deploy in it. The Bastion is just an immobile AV14 building. Your broadsides are largely immune to shooting until the bastion is gone (largely). You can also JSJ a crisis commander from the bottom to the top each turn to mess with folks. It is not the worst thing in the world.

Then blast templates. Artillery love bastions. Not only do you hit the roof, but also the bastion. Since its not ruins, its 1 level so i dont have to worry about scattering off and not hurting anything. Now i can just shoot manticores at those people manning the quad gun and laugh as my Ord S10 pens and does a silly number of hits on the guys inside the bastion. One direct manticore hit and most of that 450 point bastion is gone.

You can still scatter off a bastion.

75 points plus whatever weapon i throw on it for 10-25 is another small unit of___________fill in the blank.

Plus i just really havent needed it. When 6th just came out i used the skyshield pad with my daemons because it was a guaranteed not scatter death. getting rid of the icons actually paid for the pad so it was perfect.

Otherwise i dont much use any of em anymore. and the fortress has pretty much been banned from every tourney ive been to.

Fortress gets banned because of perceived size. Most TOs that ban it do so because they think it is just too annoying to deal with from a terrain setup standpoint.

 pretre wrote:

Wow. This is just hinky thinking. You're paying 125 for a Bastion and Quad-gun. Your broadsides aren't required to stay in it or even to deploy in it. The Bastion is just an immobile AV14 building. Your broadsides are largely immune to shooting until the bastion is gone (largely). You can also JSJ a crisis commander from the bottom to the top each turn to mess with folks. It is not the worst thing in the world.


You can still scatter off a bastion.

A previous poster was saying that was his main use for it. To protect it from the fire you say they are immune to. While they arent required to stay in it, what is the point of taking the bastion if you arent using it to protect anything? For the cost of the bastion you can take 2 more missile broadsides.

A commander plus escort would probably need 8-9" to jump up and down every turn since the bastion is 6" high and they need to clear their bases from the bastion.

 pretre wrote:
I'd be more than happy to let you crack my bastion while the rest of my units are eating your face.

My issue with that kind of thinking is that it assumes that what's in the bastion is also not worth attacking. If you've got a bastion with a squad inside and one on top that's 400+ points of goodies. And while AV14 is about as good as it gets, if someone does get a shot at it, the damage table is basically a fancy way of converting anti-tank weapons into anti-infantry. (Oh look, that railgun just did 2d6 hits each on two different units!)

I guess, you're not seeing that sort of thing happening in real game situations, but the idea alone is enough to scare me off of using bastions.

Amerikon wrote:

 pretre wrote:
I'd be more than happy to let you crack my bastion while the rest of my units are eating your face.

My issue with that kind of thinking is that it assumes that what's in the bastion is also not worth attacking. If you've got a bastion with a squad inside and one on top that's 400+ points of goodies. And while AV14 is about as good as it gets, if someone does get a shot at it, the damage table is basically a fancy way of converting anti-tank weapons into anti-infantry. (Oh look, that railgun just did 2d6 hits each on two different units!)

Sure, sure, it's 400 points. Most of that is a sisters squad on top babysitting a icarus that exits for the objective. They are about the least scary unit in my army. The retributors probably get shut down for a turn or permanently. Neither of those squads are my big hitters though and you may have a point advantage, but definitely not a strategic one.

I guess, you're not seeing that sort of thing happening in real game situations, but the idea alone is enough to scare me off of using bastions.

A lot of things CAN happen that don't most of the time. The bastion just gives me a nice piece of cover, some elevation and 2 extra heavy bolters. It is certainly not the lynchpin of my list. If someone treats it as such, I would be delighted.

 zephoid wrote:

 pretre wrote:

Wow. This is just hinky thinking. You're paying 125 for a Bastion and Quad-gun. Your broadsides aren't required to stay in it or even to deploy in it. The Bastion is just an immobile AV14 building. Your broadsides are largely immune to shooting until the bastion is gone (largely). You can also JSJ a crisis commander from the bottom to the top each turn to mess with folks. It is not the worst thing in the world.


You can still scatter off a bastion.

A previous poster was saying that was his main use for it. To protect it from the fire you say they are immune to. While they arent required to stay in it, what is the point of taking the bastion if you arent using it to protect anything? For the cost of the bastion you can take 2 more missile broadsides.

A commander plus escort would probably need 8-9" to jump up and down every turn since the bastion is 6" high and they need to clear their bases from the bastion.

I can't bring more than 1 squad of Missilesides with Tau allies, and I already have a 3-man squad. Shrug. Most Str 6/7/8 fire always goes to Broadsides while the typical Str 8/9/10 anti-tank goes to my three MCs bearing down on you. This creates a switch in targeting priorities if they want to take out my Broadsides now. Jetpacks also ignore the height requirement. For 75 points the Bastion is a steal for my purposes. I don't take any guns on it because I have 8 Pathfinders sitting on the top. I don't need an ADL because I have a Techmarine that turns another piece of Ruins into 3+ cover save, which is already better than your ADL.

Good luck getting your Wraithguards close enough to do that. It'll take you on average 2 to 3 turns to get in range (Assuming Wave Serpent transport) to be able to do that if I know you have WG with D-scythes in your army. Then again, how many armies can claim to reliably beat the MechDar Wave Serpent + Wraithguard spam list? And how many people actually play artillery in their IG force anymore?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pretre wrote:

I guess, you're not seeing that sort of thing happening in real game situations, but the idea alone is enough to scare me off of using bastions.

A lot of things CAN happen that don't most of the time. The bastion just gives me a nice piece of cover, some elevation and 2 extra heavy bolters. It is certainly not the lynchpin of my list. If someone treats it as such, I would be delighted.

This too applies to my list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Amerikon wrote:
(Oh look, that railgun just did 2d6 hits each on two different units!)

Let's mathhammer this. I'll assume you're talking about a Tau Hammerhead with Railgun, since Broadsides can't pen it, and you can't glance a building to death either.

BS3: 0.50 hits
Str 10 vs. AV14: 0.167 chance to pen
Chance for 2d6 hits: 0.0238

That's a 2.38% chance of your Tau Hammerhead pen'ing that Bastion to deal 2d6 Str 6 hits to the guys inside. It goes up only marginally with Longstrike. If you're going to Markerlight my Bastion, I'll laugh at the waste of Markerlights.

Biggest risk to inside units is probably grenade spam.
Basic Tac Squads get what, 10D6 S4 hits? Ouch...

One benefit of the bastion is that it allows you to skimp on your troops to bring more guns elsewhere. Stick cultists or min sized squad inside and then hoof it to an objective on your side of the board toward the end of the game. For 75 points you just bought immunity from heldrakes and weapons that people bring to kill infantry. Not a bad deal.

Also, it can be a good foundation for a firebase. You can put artillery behind it to pummel your opponent out of line of sight. Units that have an assault move can also use it as a reliable piece of terrain to hide behind after unloading in the shooting phase.

Plus shooting at the bastion from long range is not a guaranteed to net you results. A manticore will only get a pen 1/3 of the time. Lascannons need a 6 to pen it. Plus, if you're unloading manticore shots and lascannons at the bastion, the actual heavy hitters in a list remain unscathed.

 minigun762 wrote:
Biggest risk to inside units is probably grenade spam.
Basic Tac Squads get what, 10D6 S4 hits? Ouch...

If there's a tac squad assaulting your bastion, you probably have bigger problems...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bogalubov wrote:
For 75 points you just bought immunity from heldrakes and weapons that people bring to kill infantry. Not a bad deal.

No. Heldrakes still flame the bastion and get D6 hits on the unit inside if it touches a fire point.

Also, it can be a good foundation for a firebase. You can put artillery behind it to pummel your opponent out of line of sight. Units that have an assault move can also use it as a reliable piece of terrain to hide behind after unloading in the shooting phase.

Plus shooting at the bastion from long range is not a guaranteed to net you results. A manticore will only get a pen 1/3 of the time. Lascannons need a 6 to pen it. Plus, if you're unloading manticore shots and lascannons at the bastion, the actual heavy hitters in a list remain unscathed.

This is all correct though.

Personally, one day, I want at least one of each Fortification.
And of course, the I'd want to use them!

I can see how the Bastion is useful (improves line of sight for units in / on it, blocks line of sight for things in / behind it, AV14 is pretty hardy), and of course its drawbacks (immobile, potential for high damage if destroyed), but I think the pros outweigh the cons.

 Enigwolf wrote:

Amerikon wrote:
(Oh look, that railgun just did 2d6 hits each on two different units!)

Let's mathhammer this. I'll assume you're talking about a Tau Hammerhead with Railgun, since Broadsides can't pen it, and you can't glance a building to death either.

BS3: 0.50 hits
Str 10 vs. AV14: 0.167 chance to pen
Chance for 2d6 hits: 0.0238

That's a 2.38% chance of your Tau Hammerhead pen'ing that Bastion to deal 2d6 Str 6 hits to the guys inside. It goes up only marginally with Longstrike. If you're going to Markerlight my Bastion, I'll laugh at the waste of Markerlights.

I actually didn't realize that Broadside's lost their S10. But that wasn't the point at all. The point was that a weapon that can normally only damage one thing now has the capability to damage a lot of things. That might not be a very good argument, but it makes me nervous.

Also, your math is a little off. Because of AP1, 2 of the possible damage results will end up causing 2D6 hits, and 2 other possible damage results will end up causing 4D6 hits. So a single Rail shot will have an 11% chance (1/9) of causing at least 2D6 hits. But again, that's completely not the point.

Amerikon wrote:
The point was that a weapon that can normally only damage one thing now has the capability to damage a lot of things. That might not be a very good argument, but it makes me nervous.

In exchange, a lot of things that could hurt the broadsides can't anymore. And all that high S, low AP fire going into the Bastion is not going into your vehicles.

Another issue with a bastion is the increase in MCs. S10 smash attacks will do a number on a bastion fairly quickly.

Amerikon wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

Amerikon wrote:
(Oh look, that railgun just did 2d6 hits each on two different units!)

Let's mathhammer this. I'll assume you're talking about a Tau Hammerhead with Railgun, since Broadsides can't pen it, and you can't glance a building to death either.

BS3: 0.50 hits
Str 10 vs. AV14: 0.167 chance to pen
Chance for 2d6 hits: 0.0238

That's a 2.38% chance of your Tau Hammerhead pen'ing that Bastion to deal 2d6 Str 6 hits to the guys inside. It goes up only marginally with Longstrike. If you're going to Markerlight my Bastion, I'll laugh at the waste of Markerlights.

I actually didn't realize that Broadside's lost their S10. But that wasn't the point at all. The point was that a weapon that can normally only damage one thing now has the capability to damage a lot of things. That might not be a very good argument, but it makes me nervous.

Also, your math is a little off. Because of AP1, 2 of the possible damage results will end up causing 2D6 hits, and 2 other possible damage results will end up causing 4D6 hits. So a single Rail shot will have an 11% chance (1/9) of causing at least 2D6 hits. But again, that's completely not the point.

It's only off marginally, partly because I forgot about the AP bonus and I was only calculating the statistical chances of 2d6 hits. Only result 4, 6, and 7 are relevant to us. Since result 7 is not "7+", rolling a 6 will void that roll (6+2=8, there is no 8 on the table RAW). You're looking more at 8%. Prior to this I was only looking at the 2d6 hits. In any case, 8% is tiny. You have a statistically higher chance of one-shotting a Riptide with a Wraithknight's Heavy D-Cannon. It's tiny. If anyone brings a Hammerhead, they won't bring more than one because Missilesides are typically too good to pass up on. If MCs are in your face with Str 10 smash attacks, you're not deploying right.

Mathhammering the wounds onto a Broadside squad inside:
2d6: 7 wounds average dealth
Str 6 vs T4: 5.83 wounds suffered
2+ Save: 0.97 wounds taken

No broadsides are killed (2 wounds apiece). If you do roll 4d6, it's only one broadside dead.

 Enigwolf wrote:
Since result 7 is not "7+", rolling a 6 will void that roll (6+2=8, there is no 8 on the table RAW).

I know that may be RAW, but seems a silly argument since no one would ever play it that way.

 Enigwolf wrote:

Amerikon wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

Amerikon wrote:
(Oh look, that railgun just did 2d6 hits each on two different units!)

Let's mathhammer this. I'll assume you're talking about a Tau Hammerhead with Railgun, since Broadsides can't pen it, and you can't glance a building to death either.

BS3: 0.50 hits
Str 10 vs. AV14: 0.167 chance to pen
Chance for 2d6 hits: 0.0238

That's a 2.38% chance of your Tau Hammerhead pen'ing that Bastion to deal 2d6 Str 6 hits to the guys inside. It goes up only marginally with Longstrike. If you're going to Markerlight my Bastion, I'll laugh at the waste of Markerlights.

I actually didn't realize that Broadside's lost their S10. But that wasn't the point at all. The point was that a weapon that can normally only damage one thing now has the capability to damage a lot of things. That might not be a very good argument, but it makes me nervous.

Also, your math is a little off. Because of AP1, 2 of the possible damage results will end up causing 2D6 hits, and 2 other possible damage results will end up causing 4D6 hits. So a single Rail shot will have an 11% chance (1/9) of causing at least 2D6 hits. But again, that's completely not the point.

It's only off marginally, partly because I forgot about the AP bonus and I was only calculating the statistical chances of 2d6 hits. Only result 4, 6, and 7 are relevant to us. Since result 7 is not "7+", rolling a 6 will void that roll (6+2=8, there is no 8 on the table RAW). You're looking more at 8%. Prior to this I was only looking at the 2d6 hits. In any case, 8% is tiny. You have a statistically higher chance of one-shotting a Riptide with a Wraithknight's Heavy D-Cannon. It's tiny. If anyone brings a Hammerhead, they won't bring more than one because Missilesides are typically too good to pass up on. If MCs are in your face with Str 10 smash attacks, you're not deploying right.

Mathhammering the wounds onto a Broadside squad inside:
2d6: 7 wounds average dealth
Str 6 vs T4: 5.83 wounds suffered
2+ Save: 0.97 wounds taken

No broadsides are killed (2 wounds apiece). If you do roll 4d6, it's only one broadside dead.

The standard Vehicle Damage chart doesn't state 6+ either, so are you really trying to say that if you roll a 6 with AP2 (making it 7), or 5/6 with AP1 (making it 7/8) nothing happens?
It's quite obvious that if it rolls equal to, or higher, than the highest result, equate to the highest result happening.

Regardless of that one point or not, you're looking in the figure of 11% chance from a Hammerhead gunship, which probably has better things to shoot at than a Bastion.

Those complaining about the cost of the Imperial Bastion are not thinking clearly. If you are considering a Bastion, you are wanting a fortification. The real choice is between an ADl and Bastion. The Bastion is 25 points more than the ADL, but what are the other trade offs? That is what you need to be asking yourself.

Hint: The answer is different depending on the Army you play and the List you bring.

I agree that there isn't value in blasting the bastion at range with standard AT weapons. Being immune to glances also removes any real fear of S8. This means you're primarily concern is close range assault forces who either bring down the building with Melta or Chainfists or kill off the occupants with massed templates and grenades.

Many who condemn that bastion are looking at the Bastion by itself.. why?
Treat it like a vehicle and ask: Who brings only one ground vehicle?
Few, because it draws all the anti-tank weapons and gets popped after a turn or two.

The same applies to the bastion. Using the bastion as one member in a plethora of armour makes sense, using one without any other armour or MCs on the board of higher or comparable priority makes little sense except for those specific uses earlier mentioned (as LOS blocking).

As for its value, if its filled with valuable or powerful units, its an attractive target and that makes it very similar to a transport being used as a gun wagons. If you think transports as protection from small arms is worthwhile, the Bastion fills a similar role.

I think the ADL and the skyshield for protection are better, but there are increasing ways to ignore cover and I am seeing little in the way of anti-multiple AV14 so I feel the Bastion can work in mid/high AV lists.

I play mechanized Orks, and I use a bastion at 1500.
If I switch to horde foot, I will never use one.
I might even dump it at 2k, but at that point I would do so because I want more armour moving forward.


In the end, like many other units in 40k, the usefulness and value of the Bastion is dependant on the rest of your army.

I got around to playing my Bastion-included GK+Tau list today. I saw 3 Broadsides in it with Pathfinders on the roof while Coteaz took another squad and sat in Techmarine-buffed ruins with a Servitor/Jokaero squad.

Needless to say, I had neigh-on-unkillable shooting platforms. My Bastion was only destroyed after two Melta shots on Turn 4 when his Stormraven finally got in range. By that point in time my Bastion, which allowed me to better position my Broadsides and Pathfinders, had wiped out my opponent's GKSS, GKT, Dreadknight, and Purgation squads. The Broadsides took 1 wound despite suffering 2d6 and then 4d6 Str 6 hits, and after disembarking, promptly shot down the offending Stormraven.

All this firepower going into the Bastion basically left Coteaz's squad free to drop multiple Servoskull-buffed, Prescience'd Plasma Cannons and Lascannon shots on the rest of his army. I also had 2 Dreadknights and 1 Riptide advancing up his front. The devastating alpha-strike by my Broadsides made them such a credible threat that he just tried to focus them down while ignoring my other units.

Needlesstosay, target saturation ALWAYS works.

Stepping back, I'm happy that the Bastion is finally being discussed and not outright dismissed.

I see value in it for the right army, but unlike the ADL, I don't think its something that can just be tossed into a list.

 minigun762 wrote:
Stepping back, I'm happy that the Bastion is finally being discussed and not outright dismissed.

I see value in it for the right army, but unlike the ADL, I don't think its something that can just be tossed into a list.

I do agree with you. Not every army needs or should have a Bastion, but it's definitely fitting in some armies that would benefit well from it. I'm currently thinking single-squads of high-value, heavy damage-outputting squads that would normally attract a fethstorm of fire, i.e. the one Broadside squad in a Tau allies list.

Bastion? Bah, pansies, go the manly route and use the fortress of Redemption/Tomb Citadel.

I'm going to give it a try in a 1500 pt list with ig/gk this weekend. Gonna put the css on top to man the quad gun and stick a infantry squad inside to man the guns/shoot their autocannon