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 NickTheButcher wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
So I can put a twin-linked boltgun on any model that has a boltgun and have free re-rolls? Sweet!

If you want to break the rules by giving a USR to a model that can't have it, then by all means!

But you just said that a boltgun and twin-linked boltgun are the same thing and one can stand for the other as far as rules are concerned!

Oh, I see. It's one of those "I'll interpret the same thing both ways depending on which outcome I like better at the time" kind of thing. Gotcha

Kangodo wrote:

 NickTheButcher wrote:
So, Thunderfire cannons can't fire as barrage now because it's never been that way before?

The difference is that 'barrage' isn't caused by any changes in how the 'Army List'-section works.
So unless FAQ'd, we'll assume that they really want them to have barrage.

Good point. I concede that it is different.

There aren't really any comparable bikers -- Ravenwing for example simply add them because there is no requirement for them to replace it.

And how about BA or the old C:SM?

My point was just that, they are different or now irrelevant armies/codex's, and IMO isn't all that hard to see why they could be different/unique

Is it so hard to believe that by putting everything in a "weapon list" they make a mistake?

No, I was simply trying to say that the way it was written is pretty darn clear on intent and RAW. I'm not trying to flame or troll. Just placing a juxtaposition on a new codex.

You could be correct and it could be changed in a FAQ --

You know what?
I will change the topic to 'possible faults' and you stay out of this topic. Deal?

No deal, I want to see if there are other faults that arise that may affect how my army is played. No need to change the topic. As I said before I'm not trying to cause issues, just throwing in my opinion based on what is written in the codex.

Because this really changes how it works and it's worded strangely because the wargear doesn't directly list a Melee weapon or boltgun they can replace.

This is where we see it completely differently. I see the boltgun listed in the wargear (pg. 84) -- however, you are correct in that it is not listed in the wargear on pg. 174.

------

At this point we can agree to disagree and carry on. Both cases have been made, we'll see how it plays out if/when GW provides a FAQ.

NickTheButcher wrote:

The intent IS (because it specifically tells you to) that you swap the boltgun with a special weapon for up to two of the space marine bikers. So, yes, why would you be able to fire with your boltgun if you got rid of it for a special weapon?

Because you've never had to do that, in any of the four previous editions. It makes sense to question why it has suddenly changed, since the model has boltguns integrally modeled on it.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 NickTheButcher wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
So I can put a twin-linked boltgun on any model that has a boltgun and have free re-rolls? Sweet!

If you want to break the rules by giving a USR to a model that can't have it, then by all means!

But you just said that a boltgun and twin-linked boltgun are the same thing and one can stand for the other as far as rules are concerned!

Oh, I see. It's one of those "I'll interpret the same thing both ways depending on which outcome I like better at the time" kind of thing. Gotcha

Uh...no...

The rules say that they count as a single weapon of that type (in this case a boltgun). Did you even read the page I referenced? or the Rule book for that matter? They are the same weapon, but one has a special rule allowing you to re-roll the dice To Hit if you miss - this rule doesn't change the fact that it's still a boltgun.

Nickthe Butcher is the exact reason there have to be FAQs in the game, and the rules do have to be written very carefully.

Because there will always be a that guy out there who replaces sense with strict interpretation.

Boniface wrote:
I think the word 'take' has been overlooked here.
The option states "up to 2 bikers may take a weapon from the special weapon" or something to that extent.

That 'take' overrides the prerequisite for swapping.
If it had said may select options from... Then I'd agree with forcing and exchange.

This is how I would interpret it, but I can understand the confusion. I'll have to wait until I get the codex later today before I really form a solid opinion on it.

The discussion over the bike is "beating a dead horse" at this point. Future posts should focus on possible faults as the OP initially intended. I believe we all agree that the bike rule is a "possible" fault.

Think my observation of no special weapons in the command squad, despite circumstantial evidence to the contrary, was lost in the bike bolter bun fight.

So, error or considered omission?

I added it to the first post, could be a picture error or a mistake in the codex.
This week I will mail it, maybe we'll get a reaction and an idea to what a FAQ will bring.

That, as written, seems like a deliberate omission. Which seems odd, given the fact that Dark Angel command squads still have all those options. But it wasn't written in the same format with an armory table for Special Weapons.

Captain shrike has infiltrate. He may only join jump infantry, none of which has infiltrate. So, is it intended that if shrike wants to infiltrate he must do so alone?

For the love of Guilliman!! we all know the way bikers work with special weapons. We've been doing it for years. ! Bikers can switch their bolt pistol for a spec. weapon as it always has been, there has just been a small over sight! now PLEASE someone post soemthing else!

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Captain shrike has infiltrate. He may only join jump infantry, none of which has infiltrate. So, is it intended that if shrike wants to infiltrate he must do so alone?

No, you need at least one model in the unit to have infiltrate.
So Shrike with 10 ASM can infiltrate

Infiltrators and regular models deploy at separate times - shrike cannot join a non infiltrate unit because it will already be deployed on the table or in reserve when infiltrators are deployed.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Infiltrators and regular models deploy at separate times - shrike cannot join a non infiltrate unit because it will already be deployed on the table or in reserve when infiltrators are deployed.

He specifically has the ability to join Jump Infantry before deploying.

It does say "before". Wow. OK, problem solved.

Problems I have found so far.

Space marine captains can get a storm shield but Captains in terminator armor can only get the relic version as the normal one isn't allowed.

Command squads aren't allowed a special weapon anymore at all. Prior version all members could replace weapons with specials. Makes command squads pretty much a melee unit only. Also makes the command squad sprues a bit confusing.

No Terminator geared characters can buy relic blades as they are a unit entry only update and you have to give up the chainsword you are allowed to trade for it on a chapter master to get the armor. You are forced into the Relic's section for better weapons.

Storm Raven seems to be the only vehicle left in the entire codex that has to pay for a searchlight.

On the bike subject a pistol is considered a melee weapon so the special can swap for that and if not they will errata it so stop being stupid.

The scout entry needs better wording because it offers the telion upgrade without being specific as to the ultra marines requirement. It isn't until the entry for Telion that it says chapter tactics Ultra Marines and that may confuse some players early on.

Opinion,

I absolutely dislike the cost increase on the sternguard for their combi loaded squads. They weren't unbalanced at their old costs and the 5 point increase per combi is unneeded.

Still unsure why they made two anti air vehicles for the space marines as one would have been fine.

Looks like you can use kantor and lysander in the same army since they both have chapter tactics Imperial Fists and the way it reads either they can play together or Kantor is an illegal character since he could never play in his own chapter due to being Crimson Fists with Imperial fist chapter tactics.

They added a note allowing heavy flamers for Sternguard and legion of the damned, they should really have added Salamanders chapter tactics tactical squads. Why would the fire based army get heavy flamers on their tacticals?

--------

Overall the codex needed a bit more effort to make them more competitive but its a good start. The special character limited by chapter tactics thing makes the special character section messy for no good reason. COuld have been handled better especially since they didn't give every chapter tactic a SC.

spamthulhu wrote:
Problems I have found so far.

Space marine captains can get a storm shield but Captains in terminator armor can only get the relic version as the normal one isn't allowed.

There is a Terminator Captain HQ that allows you to swap the Power Weapon with a SS.

Also, terminators couldn't get relic blades in the last codex. I don't think them not getting it now could really be considered a typo, more of a wish list, like combi grav for termie characters or grav guns for lotd.

spamthulhu wrote:
stuff

I think the point of the thread is to find genuine mistakes in writing, not just stuff people are unhappy with.

 NickTheButcher wrote:

spamthulhu wrote:
Problems I have found so far.

Space marine captains can get a storm shield but Captains in terminator armor can only get the relic version as the normal one isn't allowed.

There is a Terminator Captain HQ that allows you to swap the Power Weapon with a SS.

I read it again and you are right. The back and forth between the wargear sections is confusing at times. My bad.

spamthulhu wrote:
On the bike subject a pistol is considered a melee weapon

No it isn't.

Here's one. Tactical squads may swap their bolter and/or bolt pistol for a chainsword. Thing is, there is absolutely no reason why anyone would ever want to swap the bolt pistol out for a chainsword. Not only is it a downgrade of weapon with no additional benefit, but if you keep the bolter you don't have an alternative in the shooting phase to it, which would prevent you charging if you do use it. It also stops you from swapping out both weapons in the Ranged/Melee wargear lists.

Devastator squads, on the other hand, don't include this little redundancy.

In case anyone cares, there is a FAQ collection thread for Space Marines in YMDC.

I have a Sergeant modelled with a Boltgun and a Chainsword, so that might be a reason
I think it looks more bad-ass than a pistol and Chainsword.

It's a "bad" choice, but I don't think it's a mistake.
My BA-codex says: "Sgt can replace boltgun/pistol with: Chainsword, <insert all weapons>"
So that's the same thing, I think it's intended even when (almost) nobody will ever do it.

but if you keep the bolter you don't have an alternative in the shooting phase to it, which would prevent you charging if you do use it. It also stops you from swapping out both weapons in the Ranged/Melee wargear lists.

Could you clarify that?

Devastator squads, on the other hand, don't include this little redundancy.

But the Sternguard have it too
So no awesome bolter/chainsword-pose for the Devastators!

Kangodo wrote:

but if you keep the bolter you don't have an alternative in the shooting phase to it, which would prevent you charging if you do use it. It also stops you from swapping out both weapons in the Ranged/Melee wargear lists.

Could you clarify that?

Basically - if you have bolter and bolt pistol (the default wargear), you can still opt to fire the bolt pistol and then charge. If you swap the pistol out, but keep the bolter, you can't fire anything if you want to charge (well - except for grenades, possibly).

I always forget that you can't charge after firing a bolter, you are right.

New FAQ fixes the bike arguments as well as special weapons for Command Squads

So it's a double trade? Switch pistol for chainsword. Switch chainsword for special weapon.

I know the answer is no, but does anyone proof read these codices before they are released? Sometimes reading through a codex it feels like it was something I wrote in college 1 hour before it was due.

bogalubov wrote:

So it's a double trade? Switch pistol for chainsword. Switch chainsword for special weapon.

To be fair, that's how it is in other Codex's for the same thing.

I know the answer is no, but does anyone proof read these codices before they are released? Sometimes reading through a codex it feels like it was something I wrote in college 1 hour before it was due.

Agreed, but that's how it is, and has been for as long as GW has been around.