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Yeah I forgot about Astorath. So this guys is what exactly and is he as powerful as mephiston or is this guy strong in other departments? Non the less can he step up to abaddon or typhus?

My take with establishing in my previous post that both abaddon and typhus seem to be super characters is that it sounds to me that there are no other matchable playable characters who can stand up to them head to head. I may be wrong as I said because I don't know the full extend of what characters exist in the Warhammer world. Not because my statement was executed as fact

@ Martel

If youre using them by their lonesome, you're doing it wrong. They hit really hard, but not hard enough to sweep a unit in a single round of combat. I use them to back up either my main assault squad with chaplain/priest/libby, or my death co. They are that extra oomph to make sure the victim unit goes bye bye before they get to swing back. TBH it could be because my opponent often gets target flare. By the time theyve dealt with the drop pod fragnaught in their backfield, the two scouting Baal preds and the libby dread also charging them its too late for much more than overwatch.

Are they heinously overcosted? Yes. Its quite often worth it though because of their unique ability to make damn sure my assaulters (remaining assaulters) come out on top. Use them to assist mainstay CC units and use synergy to your advantage and they can work wonders.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kerikhaos wrote:
Yeah I forgot about Astorath. So this guys is what exactly and is he as powerful as mephiston or is this guy strong in other departments? Non the less can he step up to abaddon or typhus?

My take with establishing in my previous post that both abaddon and typhus seem to be super characters is that it sounds to me that there are no other matchable playable characters who can stand up to them head to head. I may be wrong as I said because I don't know the full extend of what characters exist in the Warhammer world. Not because my statement was executed as fact

Not even close unfortunately. His model and fluff suggest otherwise though.

Abbadon > Mephiston> Typhus> Astorath

Astorath is basically a super-chaplain, with all that that entails, has a 2+ armour /4++ invuln, and an AP2 S6 axe that, due to FAQ changes, hits at Init 1, which hurts his effectiveness a lot. He also means you get The Red Thirst on units on a 1-3, not just a 1, and removed the 0-1 limit on Death Co. He's cerytainly not the wrecking ball he used to be, but he's not entirely bad.

If you can avoid Challenges and S8+ weapons that will ID him, he can be a nice addition to an aggressive army, but is still a little expensive.

As for Abbadon and Typhus, they are out-and-out combat characters, and also very expensive (both 250+ points I think). In terms of characters that can actually take them head-to-head and win, I reckon The Swarmlord and Ghazkul could do a fair number on them, as could Calgar or Lysander if they can weather the attacks and hit back. Other than that, other ways of beating them include avoiding them (They're both pretty slow) or tarpitting them with large, cheap and expendable squads of Guardsmen, orks ect.

Don't forget the axe makes your opponent reroll successful invuln saves.

okay so just to brush up on my horus heracy literature about Typhos and Abaddon.......correct me if im wrong so far with what i have read and fro that what i actually understood.........

Horus - Primarch of the lunar wolves which was chapter 16 of the original 20. Emperors first son and regarded as the most trusted and fearless of all the primarchs. Was the emperors beloved no.1 in all the Imperium. Later fell to chaos and brought forth the infamous horus heracy deviding almost 50% of all the space marines in the most epic battle ever which almost spelt doom for the human race.

Abaddon - was Horus's best friend, climbed the ladder together during their earlier years and became unseperable. Abaddon always looked up to horus and would do anything for him even though he was as fearless and brutal if not more so than his beloved friend. When horus was taken by chaos abaddon did not even struggle to escape his posession and willingly allowed chaos to take its toll on him also. When horus was finally slain by the emporer on the battle barge he arrived too late but managed to take horus's power claw for himself as a forever reminder of what had happened on that day of reckoning. Since abaddon has become even more brutal and most probably one of the most feared of all chaos worlords. I not sure if he has also obtained some special powers from the daemon gods.

Typhus - not sure about this guy as i didnt finish my literature on him but as far as im concerned he was a space marine who became victim to some kind of chaos virus or something which he managed to survive for a long period of time hence his super character abilities. I dont know what chapter he was part of before chaos took him nor his background before he became a champion of chaos.

If anyone knows anything more in detail for the above please add it in as i interested to find out - thanks

You're pretty much spot-on for Abbadon, Horus's Right Hand Man, took over the legion after his death, and has been public enemy #1 for 10,000 years. He is the champion of the haos gods and one of (if not the) most powerful and influential of the Chaos lords.

As for Typhus (called Typhon before the Heresy), he was a captain in the Death Guard legion, and devoted himself to Nurgle. He now travels in the Plague Ship 'Terminus Est' and carries the Destroyer Hive, a virus that lives in his armour and that can wipe out whole planets if I recall correctly. He is to Nurgle what Abbadon is to Chaos in general.

cool thanks for that addition....makes sense to me now

i keep seeing these characters as hard asses too.....who are they

In order of appearance:

Lord Kaldor Draigo- Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights, lost in the Warp after being cursed by a demon. His list of achievement include taking out Mortarian (demon primarch of the Death Guard, one of the most powerful being alive), smashing Khorne's greatest demons, burning Nurgle's jungles and a whole bunch of other stuff. Think Superman as a Space Marine. He's been in the warp for around 2000 years real time if I recall right. A lot of people think his fluff is very over-the-top (even for 40k), but there's no denying he's an ultimate badass. One spin on his fluff is that he is actually being manipulated by Choas, as every one of his great victories in the Warp are ultimately worthless.

In game. he's something of a tank, but lack of an AP2 weapon means he can't take on the likes of Abbadon or Calgar.

Nemesor Zandrekh: A Necron Overlord who is convinced he is still fighting a war between the Necron dynasties, so he's a brilliant tactician with a huge army, but he's slightly mental.

In game, he's a great leader who can dish out special rules to nearby allies and strip them from enemies, as well as having a trick with reserves and being pretty capable in combat. He's very much a leader more than a fighter, but has a 2+/3++ and AP3 weapon, so is not useless.

Vargard Obyron: Zandrekh's bodyguard, an expert duellist and fanatically loyal to his Overlord.

In game, he is a CC beast, getting an extra attack for each miss against him, swinging an AP2 S7 weapon, and a great statline. He can also teleport a unit around with him. He lacks an invuln but has a 2+ armour save. He doesn't take up a HQ slot if used with Zandrekh.

thanks again for the details....

im still in search now (on a mission) to discover an abaddon match and from other debates here is another lost of characters......let me know you all reckon

Maugan Ra

Asdrubael Vect

Eldrad Ulthran

Logan Grimnarmain

Kayvaan Shrike

Swarmlord

The Silent King

so far this is it im still looking

any daemon Prince or greater daemon would squash Mephiston

 kerikhaos wrote:
thanks again for the details....

im still in search now (on a mission) to discover an abaddon match and from other debates here is another lost of characters......let me know you all reckon

Maugan Ra

Asdrubael Vect

Eldrad Ulthran

No idea on these three, I'm afraid. I've not really looked at either codex.

Logan Grimnar

Potentially. If he has Eternal Warrior (I think he does), he could hold out a few rounds, but lacks an amazing invuln (only got a 4++)

Kayvaan Shrike

No. Lack of AP2 weapons and again no good invuln (4+).

Swarmlord

Probably the best bet. Assuming he's still AP2, and forces re-rolls on invuns, he's going to do a number on Abbadon. He's also far more expensive, though, I think.

The Silent King

This guy has no rules, so no good there.

To be honest, Swarmlord is the only one that really has a chance in the whole of 40k (Maybe Ghazkull but I don't think so). You won't find another capable of rivalling Abbadon, your best bet is to avoid him or focus fire on his unit. Taking him in CC is not the answer.

ghazghull could take Abby

noted - thanks for looking into the list. If I do find some other random characters drifting around which are being argued all around google that could take him I will post here to some responses

Thanks again

 kerikhaos wrote:
thanks again for the details....

im still in search now (on a mission) to discover an abaddon match and from other debates here is another lost of characters......let me know you all reckon

Maugan Ra

Asdrubael Vect

Eldrad Ulthran

Logan Grimnarmain

Kayvaan Shrike

Swarmlord

The Silent King

so far this is it im still looking



[/qmust know!


where is that vect model from? I just

Interrorgator chaplains have to be at the top of my list

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
ghazghull could take Abby

On a Waaagh he could (2++), but I'm not sure outside of that he would be able to do it.

No love for Librarians? Fine. They have my vote. Psychic badassery is always awesome.

Sternguard and Vanguard veterans. The old metals were great. Both are awesome in the fluff too.

I like the Predator Annihilator. Not really a fan of any other Space Marine tank.

 liquidjoshi wrote:
No love for Librarians? Fine. They have my vote. Psychic badassery is always awesome.

Sternguard and Vanguard veterans. The old metals were great. Both are awesome in the fluff too.

I like the Predator Annihilator. Not really a fan of any other Space Marine tank.

Lots of love for Libbys. Especially BA Epistolarys (even though they cost 50 pts too much). Regular libbys go well in a pod with 9 combi melta sternguard and divination. So far that combo has claimed a shadowsword, a stompa and two full russ squadrons.

My fvourite SM character must be Brother Corbulo.
His 2+ FnP has won me more games than I would admit.

As a squad it's hard to tell. Sternguard are always tough, I like Vanguard Vets but to be honest they suck at table.
Scouts are simple and reliable, but don't fit my BA army that well...
Let's go with Terminators. A medicore balance between badassness and usefulness.

No discussion in vehicle department for me. Baal Predators.

Abaddon is propably the best fighter in the game. Only way to beat him is propably to cheat his Eternal Warrior rule ("removed from play" isn't equal to "Instant Death").
Swarmlord might have the best chance, or Asurmen. High Initiative AP2 weapon that can go around EW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
any daemon Prince or greater daemon would squash Mephiston

Wouldn't be so sure.

im still in search now (on a mission) to discover an abaddon match and from other debates here is another lost of characters......let me know you all reckon

Maugan Ra

Asdrubael Vect

Eldrad Ulthran

Logan Grimnarmain

Kayvaan Shrike

Swarmlord

The Silent King

so far this is it im still looking

Swarmlord is the only valid option here I think.
Logan has a good weapon, bunch of attacks and rules that help in CC, but only three wounds and 4+ Inv.
Rest of here have simply no chance.
Maugan Ra, for example has only four attacks with AP3 weapon, making it difficult for him to deal with 2+ in CC.

It looks like you all may be correct. Abbaddon seems to be pretty much a solo mega force on his own and don't look there is anyone on imperium status to be able to take him on. It proves that chaos as a single poses more power than any standard human. Mind you if sanguinious was still alive could he have a chance against him. Obviously Horus took him out but is abbaddon stronger than now after 10000 years?

I'm still looking you never know what may pop up.

So far it's true swarm lord and ghaz seem to be only runners up one on one

Don't forget Skarbrand. I've actually never seen him used by my group's Daemons player but he has a pretty insane stat line, and AP2 at Initiative to boot.

Skarbrand being the former champion of Khorne but was too out of control became banished? Didn't this nutcase even at some point attempt to assault the blood god also? He's out of his mind.

 kerikhaos wrote:
Skarbrand being the former champion of Khorne but was too out of control became banished? Didn't this nutcase even at some point attempt to assault the blood god also? He's out of his mind.

Tzeentch did some tricks and pissed him off so much he even decided to attack Khorne, who threw him and he flew for three days and nights and crash landed and lost his wings as a result. And as a result of Khornes beatdown he lost his mind and became a pure embodiment of rage.


Though my favorite SM char is Pedro Kantor, good fluff, good rules, and he's a pretty decent guy despite all the crap he went through.

Favorite Unit: Sternguard, elite units that aren't just 'slightly better' troops. They represent everything an elite unit should be able to accomplish, and I wish my Chosen had something akin to them, even if they just got two free rolls on the CoC chart.

Favourite unit sternguard there just cool

Favourite character fluff wise Lysander. But in game chapter master with teeth of terra eats through units !!

Favourite vehicle- gotta love a vindicator especially of your blood angles :p or a contemptor there ace too

thanks guys.....keep them opinions rolling in as its helping me with ideas to add to my current army....

seems like sterguards are coming in quite a bit as favs. Whats the difference between the sterguard and vanguard then?

BaalSNAFU wrote:
@ Martel

If youre using them by their lonesome, you're doing it wrong. They hit really hard, but not hard enough to sweep a unit in a single round of combat. I use them to back up either my main assault squad with chaplain/priest/libby, or my death co. They are that extra oomph to make sure the victim unit goes bye bye before they get to swing back. TBH it could be because my opponent often gets target flare. By the time theyve dealt with the drop pod fragnaught in their backfield, the two scouting Baal preds and the libby dread also charging them its too late for much more than overwatch.

Are they heinously overcosted? Yes. Its quite often worth it though because of their unique ability to make damn sure my assaulters (remaining assaulters) come out on top. Use them to assist mainstay CC units and use synergy to your advantage and they can work wonders.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kerikhaos wrote:
Yeah I forgot about Astorath. So this guys is what exactly and is he as powerful as mephiston or is this guy strong in other departments? Non the less can he step up to abaddon or typhus?

My take with establishing in my previous post that both abaddon and typhus seem to be super characters is that it sounds to me that there are no other matchable playable characters who can stand up to them head to head. I may be wrong as I said because I don't know the full extend of what characters exist in the Warhammer world. Not because my statement was executed as fact

Not even close unfortunately. His model and fluff suggest otherwise though.

Abbadon > Mephiston> Typhus> Astorath

They create deficiencies in your list that you can't make up with a list like the BA. I'm not "doing it wrong", they just suck.

Sternguard are the shooty vets (but also good ad cc) and they can be your problem solvers for a weak point in a list. I.e give them combi meltas for vs tanks, their special ammo also makes them very good in lots of situations

Vanguard are subpar because they are super expensive when kitted up and in 6th which is very shooty orientated I wouldn't expect them to last long.

If you want a good sm assault unit use normal assault marines or honour guard. Or for BA death company and assult marines

My favourite Space Marines are the Wolf Guard. They are so extremely versatile, they can do pretty much everything.
They can have bikes, jump packs, terminator armour, a huge diversity in weapons and they can even lead other squads.

Thanks for the breakdown. I think I get the difference but is one better than the other because they are harder to kill or they are more effective in battle? Also stern vs van in terms of points? What's the diff there?

Apparently this super eldar vect seems to be a hard ass plus I think I heard another super eldar actually bested abbaddon at some point in the past? Not sure though

The problem with vanguard in 6th cc units either need to wipe out what they charge or have the durability to survive the counter attack, vanguard can't do either

Sternguard are more expensive but I believe are the more effective unit by far IMO