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 Pacific wrote:
On the other hand, there are far fewer science-fiction civilians - there are some ranges from the likes of Hasslefree and Antenociti, but many of those don't really have an aesthetic that matches 40k. Therefore, I think if you want to appeal to the greatest possible market (and have the least competition), 40k-styled civilians, including the alien species, is the way to go. WFB just has far less of a demarcation between its own style and the large amount of miniatures already on the market.

I had hoped 'fleeing' might mark the models out from generic historical civilians. I could find none of those.
However you've pretty much hit the nail on the head for how I felt - I'm leaning towards doing 40k-style ones, its what I always wanted to do, and it should sell.

 PrehistoricUFO wrote:
I've never bought fleeing civilians, but I have bought unique looking civilians to use as objectives. Like a scientist with a briefcase, for example.
The idea of moving a bunch of models around who are just fleeing doesn't work for me, I just wouldn't play the scenario.

I'm thinking of doing ones that are at least 'refugee' style - carrying possesions etc, still 'running away' but not as animated as 'outright fleeing in wide eyed terror' like the figure that comes with the giant set. I want to stike a balance between 'scared scene' which would make better objectives, and 'moving about' which would make for better use with custom rules and scenarios.
Perhaps if I do a small set of 'refugee' figures and its popular, I would then do a set of settlement folk/traders - this is where kickstarter would really help - I could set goals for sets of characters, and also vignettes as stretch goals. I would desperately need the funding too - not only does it cost me around £200 per figure (for the better sculptors) but at a set of half a dozen to a dozen miniatures, it would take me over a year to get that out of my own pocket.

Right now Im thinking
First set:
Woman carrying child (adept or menial)
Scribe trying to hurry away loaded down with books/dataslates
Priest/priestess sherpharding/pulling along orphans (at least one child should be crying and holding a stuffed toy that looks like a space marine)
A worker with thicker more protective gear on and techy looking stuff - not bionic but more of a foundry labourer
Two self defence force (PDF) troopers, wounded and battered, missing weapons, one helping carry the other
A teenage juve/ganger/thief - running
A fey and overdressed noble being protected by a burly and augmented bodyguard

Second set
Innkeeper
Technician/Arms dealer
Scientist/Backstreet doctor
'Lady of the night'
Bouncer/Guard

Ideas for vignettes
A 'ripley and newt' style female defence force trooper and scared child
A small boy having picked up a gun thats much too big for him to try and defend his cornered mother and sister
A child standing on his tip toes to try and present wreath to his saviours, while one or two other children look on in awe/hide - (you'd have to supply/convert your own amused and friendly 8ft tall ceramite clad posthuman warrior to finish such a vignette)

I am having real trouble finding artists with a suitable style, although I've only been looking 48 hours - any help is appreciated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and its SALUTE this weekend - I intended to try and do a bit of networking and find/get names of some sculptors who might want to work with me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 the shrouded lord wrote:
I'm intrigued. Question thoe: would metal be the master sculpts? Or would you sell them as plastic/resin?

I own a white metal casting operation already, but I make my money and business by doing buckles/keyrings/badges/model boat bits etc - so they would be in metal. Its not cheaper than resin, it just has lower equipment setup costs, which isnt an issue for me as I already have the machines!

A cool novelty, but I got no real use for them.

Dead Civilians, flight crew, and Civial-workers to use for terrian and baseing, i would buy. Even thow some may say that's in bad taste. Grim-dark is Grim-dark and all that.

 Lockark wrote:
A cool novelty, but I got no real use for them.

Dead Civilians, flight crew, and Civial-workers to use for terrian and baseing, i would buy. Even thow some may say that's in bad taste. Grim-dark is Grim-dark and all that.

Hatters gonna hate, grim-dark gonna dead people.

I like the idea, but scale if trying to cross from 40k to almost ANY other system is tricky. Mantic, infinity etc are all much truer in scale. Personally would be happiest with true scale but certainly a good idea and I suspect a market for it.

Actually, the only thing with this could be GW. It could possibly be kind of hard to market these as '40K civilians' without infringing on their IP

I'm definitely interested in seeing some civilians. Fighting over desolate bits of a crumbing city gets a little repetitive, but trying to secure the the midfield long enough to evacuate terrified civilians while an inexorable enemy advances towards you... I think that would imbue the game with a sense of desperation and urgency.

Right now Im thinking
First set:
Woman carrying child (adept or menial)
Scribe trying to hurry away loaded down with books/dataslates
Priest/priestess sherpharding/pulling along orphans (at least one child should be crying and holding a stuffed toy that looks like a space marine)
A worker with thicker more protective gear on and techy looking stuff - not bionic but more of a foundry labourer
Two self defence force (PDF) troopers, wounded and battered, missing weapons, one helping carry the other
A teenage juve/ganger/thief - running
A fey and overdressed noble being protected by a burly and augmented bodyguard

Second set
Innkeeper
Technician/Arms dealer
Scientist/Backstreet doctor
'Lady of the night'
Bouncer/Guard

Ideas for vignettes
A 'ripley and newt' style female defence force trooper and scared child
A small boy having picked up a gun thats much too big for him to try and defend his cornered mother and sister
A child standing on his tip toes to try and present wreath to his saviours, while one or two other children look on in awe/hide - (you'd have to supply/convert your own amused and friendly 8ft tall ceramite clad posthuman warrior to finish such a vignette)

I am having real trouble finding artists with a suitable style, although I've only been looking 48 hours - any help is appreciated.

Love the concepts above and would be interested

Some other ideas:

Adepta Sororitas Hospitilar covered in blood and surrounded by the dying
Defiant (but likely doomed) Schola students - male and female
Shop keeper defeding home
Fast food sellar with stall / Tricycle (LIke Zemelda in Duty Calls - later an Inquisitorial Acolyte)
Be good to see some Eldar or Tau civilians - we know the latter have had journalists in battles before and some Earth or Water Caste would be cool and would be different to other model ranges?
Eldar (or Imperial) artists fleeing with brished, hammer, easels etc, half finished statues

 Ouze wrote:
I am intrigued with this idea. Fleeing or not (or both).
What exactly would a 40k civilian look like, though?

In addition to Kid Kyoto's pics, take a look at the Chaos cultists who are basically heavy industry workers with guns. Also check out the GW picture book The Emperor's Will.

T

 captsabre wrote:
Actually, the only thing with this could be GW. It could possibly be kind of hard to market these as '40K civilians' without infringing on their IP

Any 'dark future civilians' that may or may not appear in future will definitely have nothing to do with GW's IP, or for that matter even this thread... like all those other 'grimdark bits' out there

timd wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
I am intrigued with this idea. Fleeing or not (or both).
What exactly would a 40k civilian look like, though?

In addition to Kid Kyoto's pics, take a look at the Chaos cultists who are basically heavy industry workers with guns. Also check out the GW picture book The Emperor's Will.

T

I have that book, its lovely.

Ok far more important question here: which would you want to see released first:

Fleeing civilians for use as objectives / putting on the bases of your monstrous creaters/titans / use in battle scenes
Or
Civilians standing around doing things (traders/townsfolk etc) - for use in necromunda / settlements / dioramas / roleplaying games set in 'grim dark' settings?

Fleeing citizens myself. Specifically a fallen crying toddler?

Personally I'd like the fleeing civilians first, but I think the second option might have a wider market since there are a number of "dark future" RPGs that could benefit from generic civilian figures.

RedfeatherCasting wrote:Two self defence force (PDF) troopers, wounded and battered, missing weapons, one helping carry the other

Given that bits to create wounded Cadians and Catachans are already available (not to mention Mad Robot's bandaged heads), I'd recommend swapping this out. Maybe with someone carrying a bunch of luggage.

RedfeatherCasting wrote:Ok far more important question here: which would you want to see released first:

Fleeing civilians for use as objectives / putting on the bases of your monstrous creaters/titans / use in battle scenes
Or
Civilians standing around doing things (traders/townsfolk etc) - for use in necromunda / settlements / dioramas / roleplaying games set in 'grim dark' settings?

Um, both? If I had to choose, I'd say go with the second option.

1.) "Fleeing Civilians"
2.) First stretch goal: Normal humans
3.) Second strech goal Xenos

I think general civilians are honestly of more interest, particularly for dioramas, etc.

 captsabre wrote:
Actually, the only thing with this could be GW. It could possibly be kind of hard to market these as '40K civilians' without infringing on their IP

'Dystopian Future' Civilians. There we go!

You should move the lady of the night model to the first wave...

Because the grim dark future still has a need for prostitution.

 Kroothawk wrote:
1.) "Fleeing Civilians"
2.) First stretch goal: Normal humans
3.) Second strech goal Xenos

If "fleeing" refers to the proposed "could be dispossessed war victims, could be people rushing to work/catch public transit loaded down with stuff", I would back a campaign with Kroothawk's suggested layout so hard my wallet would have me arrested for sexual harassment.

As to the scale issue, I would suggest you scale any such models to match Forgeworld's human infantry, good examples being the DKoK Commissar, Titan Techpriest, and the various Krieg and Elysian squads. They're just "heroic" enough that they can stand next to GW's "hamhands scale" models without looking too out of place, but also "realistic" enough that you could use them next to Infinity and similarly-scaled models without it looking ridiculous. Just going with GW-scaled stuff would probably be the "easiest" way to go, but scaling to match the FW human sized stuff gives you more potential customers(and, I would argue, better-looking models).

EDIT: Oh, and from my perspective, the more you draw from the grimdark/Blanche/wierd&twisted end of the "dystopian future" aesthetic palette, the better. Cyborg pets, market stalls selling jars with foetus' in them, deformities, the whole nine yards.

A couple of children playing with a toy baneblade or similar would be cool

 Mr Morden wrote:
A couple of children playing with a toy baneblade or similar would be cool

You mean a couple of gamers playing with a Baneblade? You just know they play 40K in the 40K universe....

T

timd wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
A couple of children playing with a toy baneblade or similar would be cool

You mean a couple of gamers playing with a Baneblade? You just know they play 40K in the 40K universe....

T

In Angel Exterminatus, they were bassicly playing Warhammer 30k and Historicals.

In one of the Nagash Books they were bassicly playing Warhammer Fantsey lol

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Fleeing citizens myself. Specifically a fallen crying toddler?

Chaos babies? IED civilians? (chaos) suicide bombers, massacred civilians! the options are limitless!

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Fleeing citizens myself. Specifically a fallen crying toddler?

Chaos babies? IED civilians? (chaos) suicide bombers, massacred civilians! the options are limitless!

Not sure about the suicide bombers or IEDs, but there could be a use for piles of bodies. Everyone knows GW uses Piles of Dead Cadians to decorate all their terrain now, Piles of Dead Citizens could be a nice alternative!

 Sinful Hero wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Fleeing citizens myself. Specifically a fallen crying toddler?

Chaos babies? IED civilians? (chaos) suicide bombers, massacred civilians! the options are limitless!

Not sure about the suicide bombers or IEDs, but there could be a use for piles of bodies. Everyone knows GW uses Piles of Dead Cadians to decorate all their terrain now, Piles of Dead Citizens could be a nice alternative!

If we can have Space Nazis, Space Eugenics, Space Stalinism, and Space Child Soldiers, we can have Space Terrorists.

i wanted to use 40k civilians as conscripts in my guard army.
after looking for suitable base figures i settled on cultists because of their ragged cloaks and non-uniformity.
looking back i wish i used 'ratmen plague monks' because its easier to sculpt boots than sleeves (both require the removal of details and new heads) also plague monks are hunched over as if their ducking down.
although mine are abit amateur, it sounds like we had similar concepts. pics in links below, looking forward to seeing yours.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/568999-valhallan%20conscripts.html?m=2
http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/569000-valhallan%20conscripts.html?m=2

So Will Beck of www.willbeck.com is now my guy for these concepts - these are just some ideas he's been kicking around for me - as to what I'll have the civilian figures 'doing' is still open to suggestion. Working, running away or just milling about - either way I expect them to find most use for dioramas and painters needing characters... Still want to get some done of some traders/hawkers/venders of weapons/'rat on a stick snacks'/2nd hand Bionics etc

Some great concepts there, and any of those would work beautifully as characterful but fairly generic models in 'tough future' settings like Infinity, Halo etc.

In an ideal world, I'd prefer some ideas that are less realistic and more fantastic, as I'd likely be using them for 40k themed dioramas and as character pieces.

As such, I'd prefer to see more of an 'oppressed industrial serf' feel – hunched, flinching or fearful postures; and clothing that owes more inspiration to mediaeval plague priests and rags than modern labcoats and protective gear. I'd also like to see more flamboyance, with the aesthetic being drawn from diverse historical periods like 80s punk, Elizabethan, and fetish stuff.

e.g.


Since human life is cheap, workers are monotasked on 19th-Century style production lines; their arms replaced with tools, permanent protective panels surgically attached, or their shoulders covered in candles so they can work into the night... In general, a bit more baroque lunacy and dynamic posing to the models would make me a definite supporter.

e.g.









However; I do appreciate that these aren't specifically designed for 40k. These are great concepts for models, and I'm excited to see what you do with them.

A few specific notes on the sketches:
I love the forge worker with the welding mask and apron; that's a perfect mix of modern worker with a mediaveal twist (the heavy leather apron). That mix of high-tech and cheap, practical tradition is perfect.

In comparison, the chap to his left is more anonymous, and doesn't have as much character. Making his safety equipment clunkier, and less practical would improve it in my eyes – this would reflect a disconnect between the original intention (keeping the worker safe) and the dogma-bound manufactured result (safety equipment that is so unwieldy or uncomfortable that it endangers the worker). It might also make the sculpting easier, as it would allow slight exaggeration.
These miner's respirator from the 40s/50s might provide some ideas.


The woman to the right is cool, but suffers (in my eyes) from the same issues; she looks like she's got a tailored set of practical clothes, rather than inherited a cheap (but cherished) tool belt from her great-grandfather. I'd prefer to see less pockets on the clothing (simpler, cheaper tailoring) and more scavenged bags and pouches lashed expertly (though hard-won experience and tradition) on. Basically, the workers have adapted ways of making their miserable lives better; even with terrible materials.


The factory workers in the other sketch are cool; though I'd like to see some options for old healed injuries and replaced arms.


Anyway, this has turned into a giant wall o'text – apologies! Hope the feedback's useful.

Love the idea! How about sprues instead of sculpts for infinite variety?

Excellent concept images guys.

Love some flamboyant Imperial nobles as well, esepcially one I could use for Amberley "under cover" - so a torch singer would also be great for the same reason

I would like to see some concepts of the fleeing civilians and nobles, these are just the basic first concepts.

I would pledge so much to a campaign that had 40k civilians, especially if half of them were not fleeing. I would buy dozens of them.

Games like Only War and Dark Heresy would greatly benefit from civilians.