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Deep striking FMCs arrive in swooping mode. If they could immediately declare they were gliding then that rule would be completely redundant. They only get to declare their mode before moving, and after deep striking they aren't allowed to move.

However, with the bloodthirster there is a good argument to be made around the classic undefined "arrives from deep strike reserve" wording, which it can be argued a summon model does not. If it doesn't arrive via deep strike reserve, then you can declare whatever flight mode you want.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

Deep Strike ( be it normal or via Blood tithe) Happens in the Beginning of the turn "phase", wich happens BEFORE the movement phase.

The rulebook says that you have to roll a d6 at the start of your turn if the reserves arrive. (Arriving from Reserve, I'm sorry i have no page-number with the e-book)
But it don't mention when they arrive or?

Under "Deep Strike" it says that they deep strike during the movement phase.

But the blood tithe summon is immideately at the start of the turn and before the movement phase.

So RAW blood tithe summon could ignore the text that deep striking units can't move during the movement phase they arrive or not?

Well, Psychic Phase summoning doesn't stall until the next movement phase. Take that for what you will though.

I think the source of all the confusion about this matter lies with the two expressions "arrive" and "move". Once those are seperated correctly, the confusion vanishes:


as per pg. 162, "some units [such as summoned units] must arrive by deep-strike. they always begin the game in reserves [even if not existing before] and always arrive by deep strike".

"Arriving from Reserves" on pg. 135 clarifies a very specific order: "you must FIRST ROLL for all Reserves [to arrive], and THEN MOVE any arriving Reserves, BEFORE any other units can move" (pg. 135, last paragraph).

as per pg. 68 Deep striking Flying Monstrous Creatures ARRIVE in swooping mode, but "At the start of its MOVE, a flying monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn".


This means: Deployment happens after arrival from deep strike reserves and is a "move", thus allowing for a change of flight mode! good for summoned FMCs!

although this normally happens at the start of the player turn (traditional deep strike), it may happen during any phase in the case of summoning (start of turn for blood tithe, psychic phase for malefic daemonology, even during the enemy turn when the bearer of an axe of ruin dies).

You cannot, however, charge in the same turn you changed flight modes (pg. 68) and/or arrived from reserves (pg. 136).

Note that changing flight mode in the enemy turn (during deployment move after arrival from DS by means of axe of ruin bearer being killed) thus means you start your following turn gliding and able to move and charge freely!

 Nehekhare wrote:
I think the source of all the confusion about this matter lies with the two expressions "arrive" and "move". Once those are seperated correctly, the confusion vanishes:


as per pg. 162, "some units [such as summoned units] must arrive by deep-strike. they always begin the game in reserves [even if not existing before] and always arrive by deep strike".

"Arriving from Reserves" on pg. 135 clarifies a very specific order: "you must FIRST ROLL for all Reserves [to arrive], and THEN MOVE any arriving Reserves, BEFORE any other units can move" (pg. 135, last paragraph).

as per pg. 68 Deep striking Flying Monstrous Creatures ARRIVE in swooping mode, but "At the start of its MOVE, a flying monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn".


This means: Deployment happens after arrival from deep strike reserves and is a "move", thus allowing for a change of flight mode! good for summoned FMCs!

although this normally happens at the start of the player turn (traditional deep strike), it may happen during any phase in the case of summoning (start of turn for blood tithe, psychic phase for malefic daemonology, even during the enemy turn when the bearer of an axe of ruin dies).

You cannot, however, charge in the same turn you changed flight modes (pg. 68) and/or arrived from reserves (pg. 136).

Note that changing flight mode in the enemy turn (during deployment move after arrival from DS by means of axe of ruin bearer being killed) thus means you start your following turn gliding and able to move and charge freely!

So arriving from reserve is a move, and you can change flight modes at the beginning of a move, and you can change flight modes the turn a model arrives from DS. Then what does that mean, that a FMC starts in swooping mode? It's just there to be useless? This won't be the the first stupid GW rule, but if you can change the mode, there is no point in stating in what mode it's beginning it's arriving.

Tekron wrote:
Deep striking FMCs arrive in swooping mode. If they could immediately declare they were gliding then that rule would be completely redundant. They only get to declare their mode before moving, and after deep striking they aren't allowed to move.

However, with the bloodthirster there is a good argument to be made around the classic undefined "arrives from deep strike reserve" wording, which it can be argued a summon model does not. If it doesn't arrive via deep strike reserve, then you can declare whatever flight mode you want.

Its not redundant, its like a default setting, like,i said in this thread or another one( can't remember), i saw many arguments in 6th, where some guys din't declare that the FMC that arrived from deep strike was in swooping, but when their foe shoot at the FMC telling them that it is swooping, while the other guy though it was gliding.

Also some of them simply forgot to mention it because for them it doesn't make sens that a FMC would come into play close to ennemy units in gliding mode just to be shot and assaulted, thus it was logical.

The fact that the FMC is treated( emphasis on the treated word here in the rules pages 68) as been swooping, is there to end those arguments, like the rules for grav weapons has been rewritten to stop the silly arguments about grav hits ignoring inv saves and cover saves on vehicles, even though it din't had any rule like this.

Also, and i don't get why its so difficult to understand, there is no pre-requisite for the model to be able to move, for switching modes, you just must delacre it at the beginning of the movement phase, wich even though you can't move still have.

Its not like lets say Ramming, where you need to be able to move to use it or something.

Doesn't this need to be in YMDC?

Also, there is already a thread about this subject there.

@Slayer le boucher: Well as they allow the player to choose for himself when it arrives from the non-deep striking reserves, it would seem odd if the explanation was to avoid the problem where the owning player has forgot to announce a flight-mode.

As has been said by luke1705 and others, the rule of the mandatory Swooping mode would be redundant if the Flying Monstrous Creature could change flight mode just after; I can't come up with anything which could happen between the placing of the model and the movement phase. I have two thoughts for this:

- GW would be very incompetent if they forgot the related change flight mode=no charge rule as it's only a couple of lines under the mandatory Swooping mode rule.

- The mandatory Swooping mode could be because of how a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature interacts with terrain and models, and so GW wants this to be the same every time when placing it via Deep Strike. I can't remember if there's a big difference between Swooping and Gliding mode on this area.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Allowing a Flying Monstrous Creature to arrive in Swooping mode but still have the choice of changing flight mode would allow it to be placed over friendly units. In the movement phase these units could be moved away so the Flying Monstrous Creature can change flight mode to Gliding.
This would of course do nothing for Bloodthirsters because of their models, but this could be the reason why GW has written the rules like they did.

I feel like something to keep in mind here is that GW is in no way, shape, or form good at writing clear uncontradictory rules. This seems like another case where they dun goofed. Until there's a faq (which likely will never come) there probably will always be some disagreement.

Rules are painfully clear that it arrives swooping and it cannot "Start another move" that turn. Sorry it just is that way.

If you want to get GW to change you need to let them know, it's not an issue of the rules being unclear. It's an issue of the rules sucking. While your at it can you get them to nerf Eldar?

So given the rules as is, summoning a Daemon prince (I was told it doesn't have wings but I don't own the codex). Seems to be a good idea.

Kisada II wrote:
Rules are painfully clear that it arrives swooping and it cannot "Start another move" that turn.

Read my post above for the quotations. In short: Arrival is necessarily followed by a deployment MOVE, at the start of which you may change flight modes as per RAW.

Kisada II wrote:
it's not an issue of the rules being unclear. It's an issue of the rules sucking.

i'm inclined to agree with this statement.

it makes sense that they would define a default mode for the creature, but it also appears to me that "arrival" implies having "moved" , but it would be nice to see it more clearly in the actual text of the rules.
seems like it is a matter of interpretation. may the better argument during the game win.
either way, the FMC is sitting out in the open for a minute.

and if i recall, the blood tithed daemon prince comes however you have it modeled. wings or not.

I think people are just fishing for this one a bit too hard. You don't think that daemon players all tried to find a way around this when 7th edition came out? CC dedicated FMCs used to be everywhere, there is a reason the only ones you see now have shrouded and rarely take to the skies.

Rules are cut and dry on it. Deep striking is your movement for that model, you can't declare a chance in flight when you run, you can't declare a change in flight when you arrive.

I am sure tyranid players felt this pain too, there is a reason why flying hive tyrants don't take melee weapons anymore.

 Nehekhare wrote:

Kisada II wrote:
Rules are painfully clear that it arrives swooping and it cannot "Start another move" that turn.

Read my post above for the quotations. In short: Arrival is necessarily followed by a deployment MOVE, at the start of which you may change flight modes as per RAW.

Afraid not, the actual rule (in the flying monstrous creature section sorry don't have page number my rule book is digital)
says "If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in swooping mode."

Arrives is past tense so your argument that "Arrival is a move" is moot

Technically as written, the FMC is "ALWAYS" in swooping mode for the rest of the game, but I assume this isn't what they meant

Kisada II wrote:
"If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in swooping mode."

Arrives is past tense so your argument that "Arrival is a move" is moot

Technically as written, the FMC is "ALWAYS" in swooping mode for the rest of the game, but I assume this isn't what they meant

1) "arrives" (in the english language) is not past tense, but simple present.

2) you did not read my first post where I quoted the exact same rule

3) the quote does not contradict my argument, but is in fact the basis of it

4)

 Nehekhare wrote:

"Arriving from Reserves" on pg. 135 clarifies a very specific order: "you must FIRST ROLL for all Reserves [to arrive], and THEN MOVE any arriving Reserves, BEFORE any other units can move" (pg. 135, last paragraph).

as per pg. 68 Deep striking Flying Monstrous Creatures ARRIVE in swooping mode, but "At the start of its MOVE, a flying monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn".

Bloodthirsters are summoned via Blood Tithe at the beginning of your turn. It doesn't say Movement Phase, it says Your Turn which is a very different thing from Movement Phase. Normal Deep Striking units happen at the start of the Movement Phase. Bloodthirsters are summoned before the start of your Movement Phase.

In the Movement Phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.

Did the Bloodthirster arrive in the Movement Phase?

No. It explicitly says it arrives before the Movement Phase.

Therefore the Deep Strike quote above is irrelevant to the issue, as it only applies to those units that arrive in the Movement Phase.

In fact, the quote only says that those that arrived in the Movement Phase cannot move any further. So the summoned Bloodthirster can not only change flight modes, but can also move normally. However they cannot charge still.

Sequence of events:

1) Bloodthirster is summoned at the Start of Your Turn and is counted at Swooping.

2) Movement Phase begins. You must declare the flight mode as the rules tell you. You can choose to change flight modes now.

That simple. The rule says nothing about Reserves, and the inclusion of the Movement Phase specifically in the Deep Strike rule makes it largely irrelevant to the Bloodthirster summoning.

 Ignatius wrote:

2) Movement Phase begins. You must declare the flight mode as the rules tell you. You can choose to change flight modes now.

change of flight mode is not declared at the beginning of the movement phase, but "at the start of its move [...] until the start of its next turn" (pg. 68)!

...such as the move during deployment via deep strike (see above).

Your still making an enormous leap in the rules that deployment from deep strike is a move. The rule you keep referrencing is for arriving from your board edge by walking on. It's a further leap that you can change your flight mode on that leap which it seems to very clearly circumvent the rule for FMCs arriving via deep strike.

Your better off arguing that you can change it via a run move.

This should be moved to You make the call.

slamma wrote:
page 135, under the section heading: "arriving from reserve", it says that same "at the start of your turn", which is defined as a separate phase before movement. (as per previous poster's points.)

i found this straight out of the text of the rule book. deep strike reserves happen before the movement phase too. see page 17 for the turn phases. "at the start of your turn" is defined separately from the movement phase.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Its pretty clear-cut that the BT deepstirkes and is stuck as swooping.

Therefor they serve more as an emergency brake, and anti-alpha-strike, as if things went REALLY sour on T1, you can summon him (and if using the formation you net an extra deamon prince) and he will land on time to make a difference.

Its not worthy to stack up for him later, and intentional or not, its smart mechanics.
You get an assault army that does not suffer TOO much from getting hit on heavy on T1-2 when he is yet to hit people.

ok, I can tell you do not have the book.

First of all, the freebie blood can only be spent on up to cost 4.
Second of all, you spend blood points at the start of your turn. BEFORE movement. At the start of movement, you choose what mode a FMC is in.

I dont get why people are trying so hard to screw with this codex.

Kisada II wrote:
Your still making an enormous leap in the rules that deployment from deep strike is a move. The rule you keep referrencing is for arriving from your board edge by walking on. It's a further leap that you can change your flight mode on that leap which it seems to very clearly circumvent the rule for FMCs arriving via deep strike.

Your better off arguing that you can change it via a run move.

This should be moved to You make the call.

I'm just following the references from special to general: Summoned units (C:KDK) arrive by deep strike (brb 162) which is a variant of deployment from reserves (brb 135) and as such explicity stated to be a move.

no leaps, only logical steps. no rule is circumvented, only prevented of being wrongly applied twice (2 turns charge prohibition instead of 1 like all the other deployment methods, practically disabling the unit)

Also, assuming otherwise would lead to the absurd conclusion that FMCs summoned before (blood tithe, also traditional DS) and after (malefic) the movement phase would behave differently during the assault phase.

FMCs must choose to change flight modes during the first move they make (i.e. deployment, not a later run move) after entering play, which then lasts until the beginning of the next turn (pg. 68), when it is decided anew.
This is simply because not all unit arrive at the beginning of the turn and such units would then have "skipped" the moment to decide what mode to use. The intent is imo to always let the player decide.
The default swooping mode during arrival (immediately before deployment move) does only exist to prevent the paradox that there would be no mode to change it from, or that it had no mode if not changed.

 Nehekhare wrote:

Kisada II wrote:
Your still making an enormous leap in the rules that deployment from deep strike is a move. The rule you keep referrencing is for arriving from your board edge by walking on. It's a further leap that you can change your flight mode on that leap which it seems to very clearly circumvent the rule for FMCs arriving via deep strike.

Your better off arguing that you can change it via a run move.

This should be moved to You make the call.

I'm just following the references from special to general: Summoned units (C:KDK) arrive by deep strike (brb 162) which is a variant of deployment from reserves (brb 135) and as such explicity stated to be a move.

no leaps, only logical steps. no rule is circumvented, only prevented of being wrongly applied twice (2 turns charge prohibition instead of 1 like all the other deployment methods, practically disabling the unit)

Here's your problem. Arriving via Deep Strike does not automatically mean arriving from Deep Strike Reserves. Reserves has a whole series of other rules that must be followed with it, and if the codex said the Bloodthirster arrives via Deep Strike Reserves then you'd be right. But it doesn't. It arrives via Deep Strike- the rules of which contain the word "move" zero times. Instead they say arrive and deploy, which are not moves. Read the section for Reserves and you will see the rules using the words arrive, deploy, and move all at the same time, but with clear distinctions between the three of them.

How's about we consolidate this discussion over in this thread in you make da call?
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/641693.page

slamma wrote:
How's about we consolidate this discussion over in this thread in you make da call?
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/641693.page

I'm fine with that, but there is a lot of information in here that would be lost by that transfer. I guess it comes down to re quoting it though.

I don't think there is a source of confusion. The Blood Thirster is just the worst of all the Greater Daemons when summoned, and people are trying to turn the rules lawyering up to 11 to make it not so.

He's a FREE Greater Daemon, waiting is the price you pay.

 adamsouza wrote:
I don't think there is a source of confusion. The Blood Thirster is just the worst of all the Greater Daemons when summoned, and people are trying to turn the rules lawyering up to 11 to make it not so.

He's a FREE Greater Daemon, waiting is the price you pay.

yep. haha.

slamma wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
I don't think there is a source of confusion. The Blood Thirster is just the worst of all the Greater Daemons when summoned, and people are trying to turn the rules lawyering up to 11 to make it not so.

He's a FREE Greater Daemon, waiting is the price you pay.

yep. haha.

nope. haha.

I've written it out like 6 times now and people are choosing to ignore the majority of the argument and put whatever they want. Quote my interpretations of the rules and tell me why I'm wrong. I'm not over here in my own little world, if it can be proved using the rules that I'm wrong I'll admit it and concede. But it hasn't happened yet so don't minimize the discussion by posting such things.

 Ignatius wrote:

slamma wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
I don't think there is a source of confusion. The Blood Thirster is just the worst of all the Greater Daemons when summoned, and people are trying to turn the rules lawyering up to 11 to make it not so.

He's a FREE Greater Daemon, waiting is the price you pay.

yep. haha.

nope. haha.

I've written it out like 6 times now and people are choosing to ignore the majority of the argument and put whatever they want. Quote my interpretations of the rules and tell me why I'm wrong. I'm not over here in my own little world, if it can be proved using the rules that I'm wrong I'll admit it and concede. But it hasn't happened yet so don't minimize the discussion by posting such things.

didn't mean to offend. i think people have had issues with the 'thirster being bad for a long time, and i thought the previous comment was funny.

i am not tied to a specific stance, i'd like to be able to use my FMCs in a potentially more effective way, but i don't see it in any of the posts i've read in this thread or the other. i'm inclined to believe the cries of "rules lawyering" here to make this new mechanic different than what it says in the text. i don't see how an FMC can change flight modes in this instance.

i wrote in the other thread, "it appears the blood tithed 'thirster is the same as any other FMC arriving via deep strike, and is stuck unable to move and defaulted to swooping. it can't switch flight modes because it is unable to begin a movement… "

perhaps it is my interpretation, but i am trying to go with rules as written.

in the end, what matters is what whomever i am playing and myself can agree upon, since we are the ones playing and we are playing to have fun.

since this is a tactics thread, it might be worth mentioning this article:
http://daemons40k.blogspot.com/2014/04/how-to-play-flying-circus-part-first.html
sure, it was written during a previous edition's rules, but the concept should still be fairly similar. 7th edition actually seems to have further benefitted the circus by making it harder to ground FMCs... i read the new rulesets for bloodthirsters and was the most excited about the wrath of khorne variant, as it has better shooting, and if it were to get grounded, all the better for you since it is a bloodthirster and not a prince.
but perhaps that is for a different thread.

 Ignatius wrote:

I'm not over here in my own little world, if it can be proved using the rules that I'm wrong I'll admit it and concede.

Your entire argument hinges on word play "arriving via Deepstrike" and "arriving via Deeptrike reserves" being different.

When Chaos Daemons use Possession to bring a Blood Thirster onto the board, they are creating a new unit, that isn't on the army list, and he's subject to the limitations of Deepstrike. He wasn't on the army list, waiting in reserves.

When Khorne Daemonkin use Blood tithe to bring a Blood Thirster onto the board, they are creating a new unit, that isn't on the army list, and he's subject to the limitations of Deepstrike. He wasn't on the army list, waiting in reserves.

You Deepstrike, it counts as your movement.

Unless you have some special rule to create an exception, which you don't.

If you can't move in the movement phase, you can't change flight modes.

Now, I don't expect you to change your mind, arguments rarely actually change anyone's mind. I wrote this post to explain why I think you rules lawyering is wrong.

To piggy back a bit,
the text on page 162 of the rule book, under the heading "arriving by deep strike"

"roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for reserves (p135) then deploy them as follows…"

perhaps it could be questioned as to when to switch from page 135 to page 162 for deep striking, i am not so sure, and that just seems… sketchy to me.

edit:
and to continue the piggy back,
on page 26, under conjuration, which if i recall is how the blood tithe works, the text reads (in bold in my book):
"the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike (pg 162)… and is treated as having arrived from reserves for all rules purposes."