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Let's make a petition to do what GW has been wanting to do for years: erase the CSM product line and Squat them.

You guys just got dual wielding knights.
And a starter kit to but them at a huge discount.

Seriously guys can't you at least be happy for a month about it.

well ok dude, now will that make the MARINES part of chaos SPACE MARINES good? Does that fix the leadership problem of our 10 000 year old brothers or the fail of the psychic powers or the warpsmiths? or the dark apostles? does that solve the glaring problem of warp talons and mutilators? no it doesnt
.
people like you always say "well they get kdk they get renagades they get dameons" cool we dont care those are allies/lords of war. we are talking about the MARINES part of our book

 oldzoggy wrote:
You guys just got dual wielding knights.
And a starter kit to but them at a huge discount.

Seriously guys can't you at least be happy for a month about it.

Not until the codex doesn't suck.

i agree with you Roknar, let's bring this back on track were all getting a tad distracted from my main point. I know abbadon isnt an official "this guy is the leader of chaos" unlike archaon in the fantasy realm, the petition if it should happen i just want to see a new president of destruction i just feel like with all thw creative minds working at GW (i dont care if you agree they are creative or not-not the point) i just feel like chaos shiuld get and deserves a better "poster child" per say.


we know he isnt in charge of everything but when someone says the one main guy in chaos marines 99% of people think abbadon (obviously an exaggeration) however i know that for me and many others regardless to the level of fame abbadon has hes just not popular, including amongst his own ranks of chaos players (at least in my experience/meta/communities) i just want to see a new face with some decent fluff. im.l just tired of hearing failbaddon and then a bunch of my rules repeat his name n make me cringe all the time :p

Again i reiterate, i am not complaining about my rules i love my chaos, sure they arent a tier one army but they certainly dont suck. you just gotta really work on deployment and knowing how and when to pick your battles *****imo***** and focus objectives. im mostly asking for some fluff updates without involving abby the tool .



Automatically Appended Next Post:
for my biased opinion, alpharius or a major alpha legion character should just start shadow controlling chaos and just eliminate abbaddon for his failings n be all like" okay kids, this is how you chaos, let dad teach how to kick the imperials in the tenders" *que fight music and hardcore destruction*

 rocksteadygreeny wrote:
however i know that for me and many others regardless to the level of fame abbadon has hes just not popular

Is there really that many people who don't like Abaddon? I'm not questioning your local opinions but personally the only thing anyone finds scary in my local group from the CSM codex is Abaddon (and the hellturkey). IMO all Abaddon needs is some fluff to reflect just how much of a badass on the table top.

I suggest an imperial commander from one of the 'good guy' codeces should be murdered by Abaddon, purely done as a sacrifice to restore Abaddons title.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 rocksteadygreeny wrote:
however i know that for me and many others regardless to the level of fame abbadon has hes just not popular

Is there really that many people who don't like Abaddon? I'm not questioning your local opinions but personally the only thing anyone finds scary in my local group from the CSM codex is Abaddon (and the hellturkey). IMO all Abaddon needs is some fluff to reflect just how much of a badass on the table top.

I suggest an imperial commander from one of the 'good guy' codeces should be murdered by Abaddon, purely done as a sacrifice to restore Abaddons title.

But that's just trying to retcon Abaddon. The problem is Abaddon is a failure, and has been, but GW keeps trying to make him cool. Let Abaddon fall, and let Kharn or Ahriman or Typhus or Lucius step up as the next big bad. Abaddon is just boring.

like i said im speaking from personal point of view and drawing my conclusion with the opinions of those who i played with at my local stores/play groups and thats abbaddon for this guy whos supposed to be this all terrifying force is kinda.....meh

i mean his rules and tabletop presence perfectly reflect his role as the big bad chaos guy but he himself is just kinda really boring and sad. i mean take archaon from fantasy i think they did an incredible.job building archaon up as a character with good background and when your reading his stories and fluff your thinking ya this dude is a thug for sure. i really dont get that with abby.

maybe abby was just the victim of poor writing or because they refuse to really let him shine.

personally instead of trying to refurbish an old character into somthing cool. a really great up an coming aspiring champion with all the willpower and gusto one can have would be more fun to read about imho! and it would be cool to shake things up if the imperium caught word of."what who showed up out of the blue and one v oned abby and took him down even with his gifts? dude must mean business"

 jreilly89 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 rocksteadygreeny wrote:
however i know that for me and many others regardless to the level of fame abbadon has hes just not popular

Is there really that many people who don't like Abaddon? I'm not questioning your local opinions but personally the only thing anyone finds scary in my local group from the CSM codex is Abaddon (and the hellturkey). IMO all Abaddon needs is some fluff to reflect just how much of a badass on the table top.

I suggest an imperial commander from one of the 'good guy' codeces should be murdered by Abaddon, purely done as a sacrifice to restore Abaddons title.

But that's just trying to retcon Abaddon. The problem is Abaddon is a failure, and has been, but GW keeps trying to make him cool. Let Abaddon fall, and let Kharn or Ahriman or Typhus or Lucius step up as the next big bad. Abaddon is just boring.

My vote is for Eliphas the Inheritor.

Abigail the Armless isn't even that dangerous on the tabletop. Typhus, however, is a scary dude when he gets into melee with you. Yeah he can't pop vehicles as easily, but you've got other tools for that job.

Abaddon hasn't really failed, he's done A LOT of damage to the Imperium. His strategy to take down the IoM appears to be working. On top of the other various Xenos and Renegade threats, the IoM is stretched pretty thinly. Horus failed because he was overconfident.

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Abaddon hasn't really failed, he's done A LOT of damage to the Imperium. His strategy to take down the IoM appears to be working. On top of the other various Xenos and Renegade threats, the IoM is stretched pretty thinly. Horus failed because he was overconfident.

Abaddon has only done a lot of damage through retconning. Most of his crusades failed when they were first written about.

Abaddon is just a weaker, less cool, Horus. Give someone else a shot, Abaddon is old news.

I would be really excited if GW focused on Honsou for a change instead of Abaddon. Especially when it would be easy to make a new supplement and campaign for him, and it does not have to disrupt other parts of the franchise to do so (where as if Abbadon does almost anything, it would be another crusade, which would have to cause GW to advance the plot, and we all know that they want to milk the cash cow that is 40k for as long as possible)

 jreilly89 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 rocksteadygreeny wrote:
however i know that for me and many others regardless to the level of fame abbadon has hes just not popular

Is there really that many people who don't like Abaddon? I'm not questioning your local opinions but personally the only thing anyone finds scary in my local group from the CSM codex is Abaddon (and the hellturkey). IMO all Abaddon needs is some fluff to reflect just how much of a badass on the table top.

I suggest an imperial commander from one of the 'good guy' codeces should be murdered by Abaddon, purely done as a sacrifice to restore Abaddons title.

But that's just trying to retcon Abaddon. The problem is Abaddon is a failure, and has been, but GW keeps trying to make him cool. Let Abaddon fall, and let Kharn or Ahriman or Typhus or Lucius step up as the next big bad. Abaddon is just boring.

Every single one of those suggestions is terrible lol

Abaddon isn't the current leader of the Black Crusades against mankind because he just managed to get everyone pointing their hatred towards the Imperium, he managed to get the likeliness of all the other Chaos Lords and even some highly feared Daemon Princes and Primarchs to follow him because hes Cunning, powerful as hell and capable of leading masses. The only other person in his wake that can perform, or even out perform him, is Huron Blackheart. He managed to reclaim a force of Corsairs for his battle against the Imperium within such a small time that the Imperium of Man simply couldnt keep track of all the planets and systems he's ravaged and stolen valuable resources, ships and converted people from. If anything, Huron will lead the Chaos Space Marines if they ever Ret-Con Abaddon, which is still highly unlikely

See here's the thing, as far as the positions in game go,

Abbadon is the Chaos Version of Calgar, and Black Legion are equivalent to the Ultramarines.

Now I'm not saying power level, but Status.

BL are what GW wants for their Chaos Marines Poster Child, the issue is that chaos Marines as a whole kinda... suck right now. But when you start to compare the characters for what they are, there is a direct mirror there.

CSM: Abbadon, Leader powerful figurehead for CSM, and decent on the table

C:SM: Calgar.. powerful, but fluff wise save for a few "shining examples" He's practicing his Impression of the Emperor, as much as he just sits around looking punchy. Yet he is the Poster Child Commander.

CSM: you get your other Characters, Arihman(sp?), Typhus, Huron etc. All secondary fluff pieces.

C:SM the same thing Ultramarines posterboys and everyone else is a second thought IF they are even used at all.

Does Abbadon need to go? No, he is right where he belongs. Could he stand to be Given an injection of "badassery" yes, he could and should, but CSM need a figurehead character and Abby fits that better than anyone else.

and I'd say they are giving him some badass injections.

IMHO what GW should do is run a summer campaign or something focusing on an earlier black crusade. the 10th black crusade seems like a good choice

Read Talon of Horus and stop spouting nonsens people...

Oh and none of his Crusades where failures, thats Imperial propaganda to make their citizens feel more at ease.

he achieved his objectives each time, getting a powerfull Daemon Blade?, check.
Getting the plans for Defilers and other devilish devices of doom?, check.
Weakening IoM defenses and fleets around the sectors?, check.
Capturing 2 black Forteresses and destroying the other 2's?, check.
Summoning Hordes of Daemons to cause mayhem?, check.
Flung open Cadias door?, check.

each time he pulled out and left the Imperials to pick up the pieces with only their eyes to cry.

Some of the sectors where he went are still in turmoil and War centuries after the deed.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Read Talon of Horus and stop spouting nonsens people...

Oh and none of his Crusades where failures, thats Imperial propaganda to make their citizens feel more at ease.

he achieved his objectives each time, getting a powerfull Daemon Blade?, check.
Getting the plans for Defilers and other devilish devices of doom?, check.
Weakening IoM defenses and fleets around the sectors?, check.
Capturing 2 black Forteresses and destroying the other 2's?, check.
Summoning Hordes of Daemons to cause mayhem?, check.
Flung open Cadias door?, check.

each time he pulled out and left the Imperials to pick up the pieces with only their eyes to cry.

Some of the sectors where he went are still in turmoil and War centuries after the deed.

That's all in....what, 13 Crusades? Look at what Horus did in one single Crusade. He killed some Primarchs, crippled the Emperor, and cracked the Imperium of Man. Horus is just the janitor, trying to mop up the Imperium.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 GoliothOnline wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 rocksteadygreeny wrote:
however i know that for me and many others regardless to the level of fame abbadon has hes just not popular

Is there really that many people who don't like Abaddon? I'm not questioning your local opinions but personally the only thing anyone finds scary in my local group from the CSM codex is Abaddon (and the hellturkey). IMO all Abaddon needs is some fluff to reflect just how much of a badass on the table top.

I suggest an imperial commander from one of the 'good guy' codeces should be murdered by Abaddon, purely done as a sacrifice to restore Abaddons title.

But that's just trying to retcon Abaddon. The problem is Abaddon is a failure, and has been, but GW keeps trying to make him cool. Let Abaddon fall, and let Kharn or Ahriman or Typhus or Lucius step up as the next big bad. Abaddon is just boring.

Every single one of those suggestions is terrible lol

Abaddon isn't the current leader of the Black Crusades against mankind because he just managed to get everyone pointing their hatred towards the Imperium, he managed to get the likeliness of all the other Chaos Lords and even some highly feared Daemon Princes and Primarchs to follow him because hes Cunning, powerful as hell and capable of leading masses. The only other person in his wake that can perform, or even out perform him, is Huron Blackheart. He managed to reclaim a force of Corsairs for his battle against the Imperium within such a small time that the Imperium of Man simply couldnt keep track of all the planets and systems he's ravaged and stolen valuable resources, ships and converted people from. If anything, Huron will lead the Chaos Space Marines if they ever Ret-Con Abaddon, which is still highly unlikely

Huron would actually be a better leader, anything to get rid of Failbaddon. So he's united all these forces and still can't defeat the Imperium? Wow, what a leader

So Abbadon sucks cos he has led 13 black crusades with a united force of mercenaries, traitors and extremely selfish superhumans, but he hasnt yet still hasnt punched thru the biggest empire in the galaxy to kill their king?. Who happens to sit on the homeworld which is the most heavily defended system in the most heavily defended sector in the most heavily defended segmentum?

Let alone the fact his crusades have hurt the imperium badly and he acheived his own goals in each of them. Only the thirteenth crusade has been aimed at terra, the rest were about gaining power, allies and preparing for the final push.

Here is a question to the naysayers. Why hasnt the imperium led by dante, mary calgar, grimnar and azrael gone into the eye of terror and destroyed all the CSMs under abbadons supposed feeble and crappy leadership? Should be easy from what has been said here. Chaos cant even one shot the imperium so they must be weak and hemce easy pickings for the mary sues of the imperium.

 jreilly89 wrote:


That's all in....what, 13 Crusades? Look at what Horus did in one single Crusade.

.... Fail?

In fact i would rate huron on the same level as calgar, dante and other sm chapter masters.

Abbadon is the Warmaster. He is leagues above those gimps in terms of commanding forces on a galatic scale, political acumen, and he commands the largest force of marines since the heresy. He is the reason chaos marines are still the threat they are in the fluff, without him they would be like the red corsairs, pirates and scum, barely surviving on raids and attacks on weak positions.

 Chapter Master Angelos wrote:
Abbadon is the Chaos Version of Calgar, and Black Legion are equivalent to the Ultramarines.

Actaully Abaddon is the Chaos version of Calgar in the same way as Azrael is the Dark Angels version of Calgar and Dante is the Blood Angels version of Calgar. Chaos Space Marines are equivalent to Ultramarines and Abaddon is the chapter master of the Chaos Space Marines chapter.

Huron Blackheart would be like the Chaos version of Cato Sicarius.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Read Talon of Horus and stop spouting nonsens people...

Oh and none of his Crusades where failures, thats Imperial propaganda to make their citizens feel more at ease.

he achieved his objectives each time, getting a powerfull Daemon Blade?, check.
Getting the plans for Defilers and other devilish devices of doom?, check.
Weakening IoM defenses and fleets around the sectors?, check.
Capturing 2 black Forteresses and destroying the other 2's?, check.
Summoning Hordes of Daemons to cause mayhem?, check.
Flung open Cadias door?, check.

each time he pulled out and left the Imperials to pick up the pieces with only their eyes to cry.

Some of the sectors where he went are still in turmoil and War centuries after the deed.

That's all in....what, 13 Crusades? Look at what Horus did in one single Crusade. He killed some Primarchs, crippled the Emperor, and cracked the Imperium of Man. Horus is just the janitor, trying to mop up the Imperium.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 GoliothOnline wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 rocksteadygreeny wrote:
however i know that for me and many others regardless to the level of fame abbadon has hes just not popular

Is there really that many people who don't like Abaddon? I'm not questioning your local opinions but personally the only thing anyone finds scary in my local group from the CSM codex is Abaddon (and the hellturkey). IMO all Abaddon needs is some fluff to reflect just how much of a badass on the table top.

I suggest an imperial commander from one of the 'good guy' codeces should be murdered by Abaddon, purely done as a sacrifice to restore Abaddons title.

But that's just trying to retcon Abaddon. The problem is Abaddon is a failure, and has been, but GW keeps trying to make him cool. Let Abaddon fall, and let Kharn or Ahriman or Typhus or Lucius step up as the next big bad. Abaddon is just boring.

Every single one of those suggestions is terrible lol

Abaddon isn't the current leader of the Black Crusades against mankind because he just managed to get everyone pointing their hatred towards the Imperium, he managed to get the likeliness of all the other Chaos Lords and even some highly feared Daemon Princes and Primarchs to follow him because hes Cunning, powerful as hell and capable of leading masses. The only other person in his wake that can perform, or even out perform him, is Huron Blackheart. He managed to reclaim a force of Corsairs for his battle against the Imperium within such a small time that the Imperium of Man simply couldnt keep track of all the planets and systems he's ravaged and stolen valuable resources, ships and converted people from. If anything, Huron will lead the Chaos Space Marines if they ever Ret-Con Abaddon, which is still highly unlikely

Huron would actually be a better leader, anything to get rid of Failbaddon. So he's united all these forces and still can't defeat the Imperium? Wow, what a leader

That's precisely why Abaddon is taking things slowly. Horus failed in taking down the imperium and not just because old emps fried his soul into oblivion. He wouldn't have gone for that duel if he had a choice. He knew he would have lost if the battle took any longer. Ultimately he was too hasty in his own crusade.
Abaddon blames him for this and will accept nothing but success. And he will make for damn sure that he will succeed. He knows you can't just assault terra head on like horus did. he knows he can't do it alone and that he needs the help of the chaos gods and the other legions if he is to stand a chance. That's why it's taking him so long. Abaddon is closer to destroying the imperium now than horus ever was.

Completely agreed; I'd prefer to get back to disparate factions with loose alliances, Abaddon was fine for a while, but I'm over it. It's just unfortunate that Archaon is still around in Age of Sigmar, because I don't really like him either, and am not a fan of the new model.

 oldzoggy wrote:
You guys just got dual wielding knights.
And a starter kit to but them at a huge discount.

Seriously guys can't you at least be happy for a month about it.

What did CSM get that made most of the codex viable?

shiwan8 wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
You guys just got dual wielding knights.
And a starter kit to but them at a huge discount.

Seriously guys can't you at least be happy for a month about it.

What did CSM get that made most of the codex viable?

renegade knights. not gonna say it's a magic cure all, and anyone who does is smoking something, but it's a pretty nice bone

BrianDavion wrote:

shiwan8 wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
You guys just got dual wielding knights.
And a starter kit to but them at a huge discount.

Seriously guys can't you at least be happy for a month about it.

What did CSM get that made most of the codex viable?

renegade knights. not gonna say it's a magic cure all, and anyone who does is smoking something, but it's a pretty nice bone

So, essentially the codex is still just as "good" as it ever was and if a chaos player wants to hinder his/her knight list with CSM in stead of taking daemons/necrons/something else it is permitted.

The codex is what it is. Nothing changed. CSM is not viable.

shiwan8 wrote:
Just one question. Why does CSM need to take some kind of disadvantage to get an advantage and even that advantage is pretty meaningless most of the time?

To answer this question.

I have been playing with CHAOS (CSM & CD) for over a year now and I have come to a hypothesis. Chaos is required disadvantages like (Champions of Chaos "Abaddon or DP can turn into a spawn", less efficient units/points ratio "CSM+DP+Possessed+TS+WT", none to nearly nill free points "VOTLW isn't free but I believe a formation from BL supplement can grant MoK free for units", lack of eternal warrior "just Abaddon+Belakor and mayber a named Khorne GD", lack of ATSKNF "VOTLW & Daemonic Instability from my exp isn't as good", Lack of options compared to v3.5 or new SM Angels of Death, Arguably SM have stronger psychic power... again can be argued, Lack of reliable Str D "Tzeentch pp #6, and a Khorne Weapon I believe is just it", ETC...

These disadvantages/ crutches are given to CHAOS because it gives the good guys SM/Eldar/Tau a greater chance to win. I have heard this debate for quite some time now and I agree and guess what, I don't Mind. if I can make someone earn their victory to the last turn than I as a CHAOS player did my job. I believe CHAOS players are GW's most important army because by limiting our potential it attempts to combine fluff from the Black Library books to the Tabletop. Lets face it this game would not convince a lot of players if the bad guys where winning on average more often than SM/Eldar/Tau.

I do not believe GW will change their role for CHAOS any time soon. GW has been attracting a younger crowd for their games. Age of Sigmar, board games, and the ready to paint and play models they will sell in big stores. What does the younger crowd want? probably imagining themselves as the good heroes triumphing over evil. lets face it, more people own SM armies than CHAOS armies. GW is a business and as a business it makes sense to invest more in a larger percentage of their customers than it is to invest in the same effort for a much smaller percentage of customers.

The problem with that is that not many people would be happy pouring hundreds of dollars and countless hours into purchasing, assembling, and painting an army that at the end of the day you're ultimately not really supposed to give a gak about because their whole intended purpose is to just be someone else's punching bag. But to embark on this endeavor without knowing up front that that's what you're getting into? ...well, what can I say? That's some serious bs right there.