Kurnoth Hunters, best unit in the game. Very overpowered, with math-hammer to back it up.

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**Bottle**

cyberjonesy wrote:
Just spotted this on twitter: https://twitter.com/Sixdiceskills/status/751730463572627456

Somebody must have been reading this thread or they've seen what I have seen in the math.

And in case you guys don't know who Symes is, he's only the SCGT champ. He probably knows how to build an army... just saying

Lol. I listen to his podcast, the Sylvaneth are going to be his hobby army (indeed that's almost 2000 points of just Kurnoth Hunters). No-one said they were a bad unit. Just nowhere near as meta dominating as you are making them out to be.

**NinthMusketeer**

Bottle wrote:
cyberjonesy wrote:
Just spotted this on twitter: https://twitter.com/Sixdiceskills/status/751730463572627456

Somebody must have been reading this thread or they've seen what I have seen in the math.

And in case you guys don't know who Symes is, he's only the SCGT champ. He probably knows how to build an army... just saying
Lol. I listen to his podcast, the Sylvaneth are going to be his hobby army (indeed that's almost 2000 points of just Kurnoth Hunters). No-one said they were a bad unit. Just nowhere near as meta dominating as you are making them out to be.

Double lol when he comments that most of them will be built with the melee option. Triple for the fact that the majority of models in the picture aren't kurnoth. It's just confirmation bias at this point, move along folks.

**jSewell**

He replied he was building 18 with scythes, 12 with bows.

**str00dles1**

Yea, moving on.

Played with them a few times this weekend doing first campaign mission. Far from over powered. Good on paper, meh on the table. The bows were highly disappointing.

Its just the 'OMG NEW BATTLETOME OVERPOERED ON PAPER" unit syndrome that as mentioned above every army has at least one, but its far from over powered.

**auticus**

The Azyr formula for these guys put them around 2 points for 1 model (Azyr comes out to be 1 Azyr point = 50 GW points) which in the GW / SCGT points is 100 points for 1 so yeah... you get 180 points instead of 300 points. They are about 40% more efficient with the GW/SCGT points.

Whether that is grossly overpowered or just overpowered or even slightly overpowered is anyone's guess.

My gut instinct is that its toward the middle of the OP scale. But its definitely a "must always take" unit at the point cost it is now.

**Attilla**

I agree with auticus above, as when calculating them for the PPC comp got them to 80pts/model instead of 60... If i played Sylvaneth and used the GHB points, these fellows would definately be in my list...alot of them

**Thor0298**

str00dles1 wrote:
Yea, moving on.

Played with them a few times this weekend doing first campaign mission. Far from over powered. Good on paper, meh on the table. The bows were highly disappointing.

Its just the 'OMG NEW BATTLETOME OVERPOERED ON PAPER" unit syndrome that as mentioned above every army has at least one, but its far from over powered.

I used them this weekend and agree they are meh

**pm713**

Thor0298 wrote:
str00dles1 wrote:
Yea, moving on.

Played with them a few times this weekend doing first campaign mission. Far from over powered. Good on paper, meh on the table. The bows were highly disappointing.

Its just the 'OMG NEW BATTLETOME OVERPOERED ON PAPER" unit syndrome that as mentioned above every army has at least one, but its far from over powered.

I used them this weekend and agree they are meh

Are they meh as in not good or meh as in don't live up to what people said?

**Thor0298**

On paper they seem way better.

**Jackal**

Used 6 with bows and 6 with scythes in a game.

While the bows are good, they are nothing game breaking.
They can do a decent amount of damage, but for 360 points they should do. (using GHB points)

I found the scythes were far more reliable for damage though.

Best combo I've found so far though is sprites and drycha.
The bravery to damage is pretty nasty, especially against low bravery armies.

But all in all, the hunters are IMO, at the bottom of high tier.
They are great for the points and have a ton of potential, but they aren't something that's essentially an auto win button.

Teleporting from wyldwood to wyldwood is however fun, and great in objective games for getting about quickly.

**Attilla**

Jackal wrote:

They are great for the points and have a ton of potential, but they aren't something that's essentially an auto win button.

I think we pretty much reached a consensus here with this statement

**str00dles1**

Jackal wrote:
Used 6 with bows and 6 with scythes in a game.

While the bows are good, they are nothing game breaking.
They can do a decent amount of damage, but for 360 points they should do. (using GHB points)

I found the scythes were far more reliable for damage though.

Best combo I've found so far though is sprites and drycha.
The bravery to damage is pretty nasty, especially against low bravery armies.

But all in all, the hunters are IMO, at the bottom of high tier.
They are great for the points and have a ton of potential, but they aren't something that's essentially an auto win button.

Teleporting from wyldwood to wyldwood is however fun, and great in objective games for getting about quickly.

Yup this pretty much says it all. They are good, but not a auto win. The bows are nice as it gives them flexibility but you best have a good melee unit as they are mostly standing back, which is kind of a waste as they have 5 wounds and 4up save each.

How come you picked Scythes? To the Greatsword?

**SagesStone**

str00dles1 wrote:
Jackal wrote:
Used 6 with bows and 6 with scythes in a game.

While the bows are good, they are nothing game breaking.
They can do a decent amount of damage, but for 360 points they should do. (using GHB points)

I found the scythes were far more reliable for damage though.

Best combo I've found so far though is sprites and drycha.
The bravery to damage is pretty nasty, especially against low bravery armies.

But all in all, the hunters are IMO, at the bottom of high tier.
They are great for the points and have a ton of potential, but they aren't something that's essentially an auto win button.

Teleporting from wyldwood to wyldwood is however fun, and great in objective games for getting about quickly.

Yup this pretty much says it all. They are good, but not a auto win. The bows are nice as it gives them flexibility but you best have a good melee unit as they are mostly standing back, which is kind of a waste as they have 5 wounds and 4up save each.

How come you picked Scythes? To the Greatsword?

I think it's probably because the scythes have a 2" range and -2 rend with a potential to do 1-3 damage a hit over a flat 2. At least I picked them myself for the rend and range not to mention the look.

**Haechi**

I picked the swords for the look and avoid the frustration on rolling low on those D3 damages haha

**Lord Kragan**

Totalwar1402 wrote:
OP

I did some mathhammer on the bow units and two units of three will struggle to put 5 wounds on a character with 3+ armour. Even with two shots each you struggle to get through with only 6 shots. They really aren't that good.

Also, the sword and scythe are massively more damaging than the bow version. Almost twice as much in fact. Simply due to better hit chance and a higher number of attacks or more rend for the scythes. But they still get all of the trample and armour abilities...

Also, how does wound allocation work in AoS? Was thinking best way to blob Alarielle with the Kurnoth using her heal ability.

Edit: Table: sorry the forum does not like Excel. Also, assumes a leader with a bonus to hit in a squad of three.

Damage
5+ 4+ 3+ 2+
Sword 9.63 7.70 5.78 3.85
Scythe 8.67 7.22 5.78 4.33
Bow 4.81 3.85 2.89 1.93 It

While nice you're failing to notice the 30'' range versus the 1'' or 2'' range, consider two rounds of firing the kurnoth or even three and the bows have the upper hand. IMO the Kurnoth bows are the best configuration not by virtue of sheer might on their own (which isn't bad) but on sinergy. Right now they have the longest range in the Sylvaneth army, followed by... arcane bolt. They can provide support and help snipe units that may give trouble to your heavy hitters which I think it's better than having more unit thrown into the meat grinder and hoping it makes it to it. It also helps neuter other shooting units: handgunners' strength lies in their potential of auto-hiting and wounding on 2+, but it can't come into place if they are forced into moving. Place them in a sylvaneth forest to boost their save to a 3+ (bonus for terrain/barricading).

**Totalwar1402**

OP

The unit has quite a few problems

1 - Low armour. Even with 5 wounds that 4+ armour is going to get them killed very quickly.

2 - Lack of synergy. Theres not a whole lot of ways to buff the unit aside from Durthu and Wildwoods. Even this only makes you faster but doesn't make you more dangerous. This is odd considering most Sylvaneth units get some buff for being inside woods. These guys don't.

3- Trample being at the end and not start of the combat phase.

4 - Low hit chance for the bows. The biggest problem is that you will miss with the bows with only a 4+ hit chance.

5 - A pretty bizarre rule where they spread command abilities, even though the only model with a command ability that buffs other units is Alarielle. Which is armywide anyway...

I think they're wayyyy better than Treelords, Ancients, Dryads. Tree Revanents and are a must take. But they certainly aren't game breaking.

**pm713**

5 is wrong. There are other command abilities that buff units.

**SagesStone**

Yeah, they can ~~project the ancient's save reroll bubble too.~~ get the save reroll anywhere.

**cranect**

Honestly I fought some the other day and it wasn't that bad. Of course it was on the 4x4 table since it was a vangaurd game but turn one they killed a minotaur. Turn 2 the ghorgon caught them at the 6 inches into the board line. The minotaurs could have caught them even easier. The ghorgon killed one and a half outright. They injured the doombull giving out buffs and by this time the treelord and dryads the other minotaurs ripped through were dead and a unit of minotaurs ripped the kurnoth apart. The kurnoth had average rolls but you can only run so far and lots out there hit just as hard if not harder.

**Totalwar1402**

pm713 wrote:
5 is wrong. There are other command abilities that buff units.

What are they?

Are these generals handbook?

**pm713**

Totalwar1402 wrote:
pm713 wrote:
5 is wrong. There are other command abilities that buff units.

What are they?

Are these generals handbook?

Battletome.

Treelord Ancient has a save buff bubble.

**Totalwar1402**

pm713 wrote:
Totalwar1402 wrote:
pm713 wrote:
5 is wrong. There are other command abilities that buff units.

What are they?

Are these generals handbook?

Battletome.

Treelord Ancient has a save buff bubble.

As in they get a re roll or plus 1 armor?

**pm713**

Totalwar1402 wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Totalwar1402 wrote:
pm713 wrote:
5 is wrong. There are other command abilities that buff units.

What are they?

Are these generals handbook?

Battletome.

Treelord Ancient has a save buff bubble.

As in they get a re roll or plus 1 armor?

Reroll.

**SpleenThief**

You say reroll saves in combat phase, I say blood letters with +1 to hit dishing out mortal wounds on 5+ or just shoot you or ping you with spells.

Everything in Sigmar is mortal not like 40k where you have to hard counter units.

**Snoopdeville3**

cyberjonesy wrote:
So for 180 pts you get 3 models with 5 wounds each.
To break it down a little, this makes every hunter worth 60 points.

Kurnoth hunters have a 4+ save, but they also have a re-roll to saves in the combat phase.
This means that in order to wound a hunter, you have to hit it 4 times. (roll 4 dices, 2 are saved , 2 are failed but with the reroll, 1 will save and the other will go through.)
Kurnoth hunters being a 5 wound model, this brings their effective health to 20 (5x4). It takes 20 successful wounds to slay this 60 point model.
Defensively, this unit is the best in the game right now at 3 points per effective health in the combat phase.

But it does not stop there. Most units that I have math-hammered to be highly points effective in defense,normally lack in the offence department. But this is not the case with Kurnoth hunters. They are literally moving reapeater bolt throwers !

Their ranged attacks rend and deal 1d3 dmg at a considerable distance. A fully manned repeater bolt thrower normally deals 2d3 dmg every turn for 120 points.
You can expect more than this with only 2 hunters (120 pts) ! You can also kit the hunter to be melee powerhouses, but you would be a fool to do so, as they are quite capable of handling themselves in melee with their shooting attacks on top of the sprout attacks and the stomp attacks.
These guys will rip through an amy in no time. Its this amazing offensive capacity mixed with the unbelievable point efficiency of their wounds characteristic that, in my book, makes this unit the best in the game.

Also with the bolt thrower (for HE at least), you can knock out crew to bring its attacks down. Making the hunters in my opinion better.

I play against a friend who plays Ogres and always brings a vulture on his Thundertusk. I brought the bolt thrower once and found it to be pointless unless your opponent has reallllllly bad luck rolling. Basically it could rend the bolt thrower useless by killing its crew with the vulture from across the board in 2 turns.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

gmaleron wrote:
cyberjonesy wrote:
Time will tell but I predict many top lists will spam kurnoth hunters with bows. They are the tau of AoS.
Just remember that a unit tied into melee still gets to shoot in the shooting phase.

Even so there is plenty in the game out there that can and should be able to counter them effectively, they are strong but they are by no means overpowered. Also you are completely jumping the gun by claiming they are "OP" before people have even had the opportunity to use them, give it a couple months after people have been able to use them and play against them.

Agreed.

**Aijec**

Why would anyone choose to engage this model in mele with rend - attacks? You are assuming the opponent is going to play your game.

With rend 1 they would take 4.44 hits out of 10 wounds, even that small upgrade makes a massive change.

**RoperPG**

Aijec wrote:
Why would anyone choose to engage this model in mele with rend - attacks? You are assuming the opponent is going to play your game.

With rend 1 they would take 4.44 hits out of 10 wounds, even that small upgrade makes a massive change.

They're just begging for a retributor thunderstrike with a Celestant on foot backing them up.