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Now that's a fantastic idea! I was wondering how to represent the named C'Tan in my 'biblical plague' style C'Tan, and that's a perfect idea
I'm imagining a rolling tide of mini-Nightbringers swarming across the battlefield, draining the energy from everything in their path in the same way they drain the energy of suns. Imagine Hardhome from Game of Thrones when the tide of undead pours over the cliff.
You can do some really creepy stuff like when the Nightbringer speaks have all of the demi-nightbringers speak in absolute unison.
In the battle with the Old Ones, it wasn't technological superiority that won. It was sheer numbers.
Now that's scary
It also keeps the best bits about the sharding idea. It explains how there can be multiple Nightbringers in different Necron armies, and it keeps the threat of 'shards' joining up and forming a terrifying entity of old (the best bit about shards).
Oh, and it also explains how you can have loose C'Tan knocking around in Necron armies too. If an individual C'Tan only has a rudimentary, instinctive intelligence (closer to a clever animal than a god-like being) then it could be worth the risk to release it upon your foes.
Perfect!
As to how they'd do it with necrodermis, perhaps legions of blank necrodermis bodies which individual C'Tan were transferred into. The C'Tan are able to warp these bodies into whatever form is pleasing to them.
If you do it like that, you could change the dynamic between the Necronty and the C'Tan slightly if you want. Perhaps the Necrontyr already planned to create living metal bodies for their population to ensure them immortality, but they needed to test their technology on other sentient beings. Enter the C'Tan who offer themselves for this experiment in exchange for a way to directly influence the material world.
However, the test is rigged. Either the Deceiver swarm or the Overlords or both tamper with the process (pitched in the codex as 'there was an error with the process', with the subtle implication that it was foul play to win the war against the Old Ones). When the Necrons come to transfer, the vast majority of their citizens are reduced to mindless automatons.
What do you reckon?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/11/09 14:23:15
Yeah, that is a scary image. Remember Replicants from Stargate, or the Goo from the game Grey Goo? That tide of semi-sentient metal spreading and consuming everything in its path? That's pretty scary stuff.
Of course, I would make it so that the C'tan aren't capable of reproducing, at least not rapidly; otherwise they would be no different than tyranids, and one could say that if the C'tan were an all consuming swarm, why bother with necron foot soldiers?
It should be more like that they are nearly immortal, but once you disperse the swarm and break their shells they become nearly harmless, as they will drift towards the largest possible energy (food) source, usually the sun.
I do have a concept of how the C'tan operate and behave like an living creature.
The C'tan are communal, energy based organisms that travel in large, tribe like swarms. Their primary purpose is to consume enough energy, so they may grow and develop sentience.
A "true" singular C'tan (like what the Nightbringer is supposed to be), could be an individual which consumed enough energy to acquire a bit of mass, and started fusing with other individuals, thereby increasing in size and intelligence. At that state, it will imposing its consciousness upon the swarms communication network, forming smaller versions of itself.
This is the C'tan entity's ideal stage; at that point, the smaller versions will start producing "infant" entities, that possess a part of the "mother" c'tan's personality. These smaller entities join the swarm and continue the process, consuming, growing and fusing together to form larger entities, ect.
The wars between C'tan referenced in the 3rd book could be intertribal conflicts, where a "Master" class C'tan attempts to consume a weaker swarm, as to increase its sphere of influence and assimilate the vanquished C'tan's experiences and personality traits. Think of it as a country conquering another country.
To recap :
Infant - stage one C'tan - the smallest, semi sentient type. Controlled by Stage 2 C'tan
Progenitor - Stage 2 C'tan = larger, formed by multiple infant c'tan once they have consumed enough energy, or in rare cases a single infant that has gained a lot of energy. Has a size limit imposed by the Mother, and once they reach that limit will generate infants.
Master - Stage 3 C'tan - Largest known size of C'tan. The result of many c'tan fusing together around the largest entity, which developed its own distinct sentience and personality, and managed to impose dominance on the swarm's collective consciousness. Extremely intelligent. Imposes a size limit on the smaller C'tan, as to prevent the birth of another Master, which could threaten its hold on the swarm. May continue growing in size. Unknown what would happen if it becomes even larger.
Or something like that. I hope it was clear. I tried making it as alien and strange as possible.
Oh, I just read your edit. Yeah, that could work. One could even say that the goal of the C'tan was to produce more vessels for its kind, and eventually a necron will become host to a swarm. Remember the Jaffa from Stargate? The necrons could be like that; a necron could be something a slave soldier to start with, with a c'tan slowly and safely growing inside of it, feeding off free energy. The lord type necrons could be necrons with more mature c'tan inside. Once it reaches a certain age / size it will join the swarm as a progenitor, consuming the host body in the process.
At least for the lord and warrior types. Not sure how to handle the other variants, especially the flayed ones. I really like that obscure bit of 3rd ed lore where the flayed ones were necrons who remembered they were organic, and their butchery was really them trying to regain and organic body. That was creepy, I loved it.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/11/09 14:46:04
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, that is a scary image. Remember Replicants from Stargate, or the Goo from the game Grey Goo? That tide of semi-sentient metal spreading and consuming everything in its path? That's pretty scary stuff.
Taking some influence from the replicators would be very cool always liked those. Plus, there's the old adage that to create something that looks unique you just need to spread your sources widely
Of course, I would make it so that the C'tan aren't capable of reproducing, at least not rapidly; otherwise they would be no different than tyranids, and one could say that if the C'tan were an all consuming swarm, why bother with necron foot soldiers?
It should be more like that they are nearly immortal, but once you disperse the swarm and break their shells they become nearly harmless, as they will drift towards the largest possible energy (food) source, usually the sun.
Hmmm, I like the idea that the C'Tan aren't capable of reproducing quickly. You're right to try and steer clear of the Tyranids' domain.
I really like the idea that an individual C'Tan is mostly harmless, simply drifting towards the closest star to feed.
Combining the two, perhaps the C'Tan cannot reproduce but it's actually impossible to physically kill a C'Tan. You can destroy their necrodermis shell, but at that point their energy-being still remains. There could still be thousands of immortal star-vampires feeding off suns around the galaxy, unknown to the mortal races...
I do have a concept of how the C'tan operate and behave like an living creature.
The C'tan are communal, energy based organisms that travel in large, tribe like swarms. Their primary purpose is to consume enough energy, so they may grow and develop sentience.
A "true" singular C'tan (like what the Nightbringer is supposed to be), could be an individual which consumed enough energy to acquire a bit of mass, and started fusing with other individuals, thereby increasing in size and intelligence. At that state, it will imposing its consciousness upon the swarms communication network, forming smaller versions of itself.
This is the C'tan entity's ideal stage; at that point, the smaller versions will start producing "infant" entities, that possess a part of the "mother" c'tan's personality. These smaller entities join the swarm and continue the process, consuming, growing and fusing together to form larger entities, ect.
The wars between C'tan referenced in the 3rd book could be intertribal conflicts, where a "Master" class C'tan attempts to consume a weaker swarm, as to increase its sphere of influence and assimilate the vanquished C'tan's experiences and personality traits. Think of it as a country conquering another country.
To recap :
Infant - stage one C'tan - the smallest, semi sentient type. Controlled by Stage 2 C'tan
Progenitor - Stage 2 C'tan = larger, formed by multiple infant c'tan once they have consumed enough energy, or in rare cases a single infant that has gained a lot of energy. Has a size limit imposed by the Mother, and once they reach that limit will generate infants.
Master - Stage 3 C'tan - Largest known size of C'tan. The result of many c'tan fusing together around the largest entity, which developed its own distinct sentience and personality, and managed to impose dominance on the swarm's collective consciousness. Extremely intelligent. Imposes a size limit on the smaller C'tan, as to prevent the birth of another Master, which could threaten its hold on the swarm. May continue growing in size. Unknown what would happen if it becomes even larger.
Or something like that. I hope it was clear. I tried making it as alien and strange as possible.
Interesting ideas. I like the idea that a C'Tan that consumes enough energy (possibly including its own kind) becomes larger and dominant in a swarm of smaller C'Tanlings.
Oh, I just read your edit. Yeah, that could work.
One could even say that the goal of the C'tan was to produce more vessels for its kind, and eventually a necron will become host to a swarm.
Remember the Jaffa from Stargate? The necrons could be like that; a necron could be something a slave soldier to start with, with a c'tan slowly and safely growing inside of it, feeding off free energy. The lord type necrons could be necrons with more mature c'tan inside. Once it reaches a certain age / size it will join the swarm as a progenitor, consuming the host body in the process.
Now that is an interesting idea, and would give a solid-gold reason why the Necrons rebelled against them (which I've also been struggling to find a compelling reason for).
If the Necrons weren't meant to be an army, but were simply vessels for breeding new C'Tan (they needed a steady source of energy to gestate an infant C'Tan), which would eventually manifest into a new C'Tan within its own necrodermis body, I can certainly see how the Necron Lords (who were tricked as to the purpose of their biotransference, being told they would be given immortal bodies to fight the Old Ones).
Actually, my idea was that the vessels still fought on the battlefield, and the c'tan inside fed off the residual energy from the battlefield. My version of the necrons never rebelled. Its pretty much 3rd ed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/09 14:58:40
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
2016/11/09 15:57:05
Subject: Re:Reinventing the Necron and their agenda!
Ah I see i think a lot of people like the rebellion concept. Provided it's done well, I can see it being a positive thing for the Altcrons codex.
How about this for an Altcron potted history, taking on board a lot of the above discussion?
The war between the Necrontyr and the Old Ones
Spoiler:
The Necrontyr, like all other humanoid races in the galaxy, were creations of the Old Ones. One of their earliest experiments, they were present very early on in the universe. Despite their flaws, they clung onto life while the Old Ones moved on to other experiments. They constructed a large empire using slower-than-light sleeper-ships to colonise new worlds, unified by faster-than-light communications. Each Necrontyr world was a sovereign empire, unified by this common communications network.
When they finally encountered the Old Ones, and their latest creations the Eldar, they reached out for help. 'Why did you make us so frail when the Eldar are long-lived?', 'Help us to reach their level, are we not your children too?' the cries rang out. However, their pleas for help fell on deaf ears. Either the Old Ones were unaware of the C'Tan's effect on their creations, or they were part of the Necrontyr experiment from the start.
Bitterness and resentment built in the Necrontyr's hearts. Soon, calls for war rang out among the empire. Leaders proclaimed that they would take what was rightfully theirs, and punish those who withheld it from them. However, despite their advanced technology they were outclassed by the Old Ones' mastery of the warp. Their once-mighty empire crumbled, and millennia of expansion was set to ruin as they were pushed back to their core worlds.
First Contact
Spoiler:
The C'Tan were not all-powerful gods of the material realm. They were certainly powerful, but were also numerous. Native to the Necrontyr star-system, it was the output of these Star-Vampires feeding on their sun that caused such wretched radiation to fall on the Necrontyr homeworld. Unable to cross the void of space by themselves, they latched onto the plasma drives of Necrontyr starships to colonise new suns. Wherever the Necrontyr ran to, their plague followed with them.
The intense radiation put out by the C'Tan baffled the scientists of the Necrontyr, and resisted any attempt to adequately shield against it. After the first War in Heaven, it was through their intense study of this mysterious ailment that the Necrontyr scientist finally noticed a pattern. The way the radiation altered its state appeared to mimic brainwave patterns. It was this discovery that precipitated first contact between the Necrontyr and the C'Tan.
Bio-transference and the Necron rebellion
Spoiler:
However, the Necrontyr didn't create necrodermis vessels for the C'Tan right at the start.
First contact began with C'Tan inhabiting living Necrontyr, although this burnt out the hapless individual after a short period of time. Perhaps they needed a compatible brain structure to contain them. The C'Tan collective known as The Deceiver devised a plan to construct bodies that they could inhabit on a more permanent basis.
Pitching the idea to the Necrons as a means to obtain eternal life, the C'Tan devised necrodermis bodies for the Necrontyr. The first converts were the elite: the lords and crypteks. In order to hide their true plans, these bodies retained their full consciousness through the biotransference process. The civilian population of the Necrontyr were awed, their salvation was evident before them.
However, it was only when the time came for the species-wide biotransference that the trap was sprung. The C'Tan had no intention of providing the same treatment to the citizens of the Necrontyr empire. Why would they want the future shells of their offspring to be anything other than mindlessly obedient?
It's unclear whether the lords were complicit in this, consumed as they were with their vengeance upon the Old Ones, or whether they too were tricked. However, in the aftermath of the War in Heaven when the C'Tan were severely weakened from their battles, the overlords struck. Perhaps they were appalled at the fate of their race, or that they themselves feared becoming the unwilling shell for a C'Tan consciousness. Through codes written by the Crypteks they wrested control of their warriors, and hunted the remaining C'Tan to the ends of the universe, imprisoning them wherever they could be found.
However, this lull allowed the remaining allies of the Old Ones to regroup. The Eldar resurgent, and the Krork rampaging across the galaxy, they retreated to their tomb-worlds to weather the coming storm.
Awakening
Spoiler:
The year is M39 and the Necrons are finally rousing from their millennia-long slumber. Everywhere they look, the taint of the hated Old Ones flourishes. However, that is not the worst development. Many stasis-crypts have inexplicably failed during their slumber. Through intense study, the Crypteks find a terrible flaw has crept into the great reactors that power their tomb-worlds. A failsafe put in place by the C'Tan has triggered, irrevocably damaging the irreplaceable devices.
In a desperate attempt to cling onto the eternal life they had wrested from their C'Tan masters, the Overlords task their Crypteks with fixing the flaws in their power generation. The breakthrough comes when the forces of Alaitoc assault a waking Tomb World. The Crypteks study their captured wraith constructs with interest. Machines, powered by souls.
Through the study of these constructs, the Necrons find their salvation. Through harvesting the souls of living beings, they can replenish their power reserves. Their thoughts on the younger races of the galaxy turns from annihilation, to subjugation. The races of the galaxy would serve only to feed the great reactors of the Tomb Worlds, and the Necrons would conquer death once again.
Then, in other areas of the Altcrons codex, we've got a couple of stories from present-day Altcrons:
A Spark of Soul
Spoiler:
Research Notes, M65.39.874. Personal Encryption Alpha 1 Every so often, there will be a little glitch in a random Necron warrior. The faintest of oddities that cannot be explained through their programming. Most puzzling to the Crypteks.
Why do they insist on screaming when they're cut down in battle? Why is it that every so often, a warrior will pause at its reflection for no tactical benefit?
Are these simply echoes, persisting as faint reflections through the millennia, or are our people still in there somehow?
We were tricked. Uncountable years ago. Our lords and masters would stop at nothing to defeat their dreadful enemies the Old Ones. Every man, woman and child was sacrificed on the alter of war to bring victory. Victory for whom? Not me, certainly. Everything I was was taken from me on that day.
I will not rest until I bring my people salvation. Lords, Overlords, the Silent King himself. All those who annihilated my people will fall, and our echoes will have voice again.
A Shepherd Tends His Flock
Spoiler:
Overlord Xatopek surveyed the scene from the distant throne of his command barge. Great hordes of biomorphs descended upon the human colony, raining down to the surface in great bloated spores, the colonists desperately mounting a doomed defence. A niggling itch of irritation ate at his mind. How dare this vermin attack his flock? He had subtly nurtured this world to create a great bounty for his people. It was his alone to harvest.
Conjuring ghostly green symbols up from the console on his right, he gestured towards the location of the planet. Deep within the Tomb World, vast legions of Warriors stirred from their artificial slumber. Dutifully, they marched in unison towards the great phase-room, flanked by silent Wraiths and humming Destroyers. Rank by rank, they vanished into thin air, materialising on the surface of the stricken planet.
Haven't written it yet, but this: A People Betrayed
Spoiler:
Set immediately prior to the bio-transference in a market on a backwater Necrontyr world. There's an old grizzled veteran chap (35 years old and still healthy, good going for a Necrontyr) who's sitting under his solar shade watching some street urchins kicking rocks around in the dusty marketplace.
Suddenly, a Necrontyr flier plummets from the sky and explodes. Thinking they're under attack from the Old Ones forces, he sprints to his stall where he's hidden his gauss rifle from his service days, people all around him just dropping down limp.
He goes to comfort the little street urchin girl, saying how he's a trained warrior of the Necrontyr empire and the Old Ones can't hurt her while he's around. He gets halfway through his sentence then his eyes roll back in his skull and he slumps forwards.
The perspective switches to the little girl, peering out from under her rad-hood in horror at the scene around her, people littering the floor of the marketplace. Then, everything goes blank.
She wakes up in a room that's completely dark and cold. She tries to scream and a harsh metallic rasping noise echoes around the walls. Slowly, the darkness creeps in from the edges of her vision and she loses consciousness again.
Flash forward many millennia and a Necron warrior gets strafed by a heavy bolter, one of the rounds piercing its ribcage and detonating violently. Briefly flashing into consciousness, the 65 million-year-old scream of the little Necrontyr girl escapes its cage as that same metallic rasp before she phases out back to her resting place on the tomb-world and she fades out again.
4. Maybe a brief description of an ancient battle during the War in Heaven, giving a really visceral picture of the plague of C'Tan overwhelming an ancient Eldar warhost.
How's that?
I've tried to put together some of the ideas from these two threads, and make it all hang together as a compelling narrative that stays true to the core Necron traits of being terrifying, but also pitiable.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/09 15:57:53
Psienesis wrote: As another point, Bio-Transference was something the Necrontyr came up with on their own, it wasn't something the C'Tan gave them.
In fact, it was the creation of Necrodermis that allowed the Necrontyr to build the shells the C'Tan would come down from the stars they were eating in order to inhabit that permitted the two to communicate.
Then what did the C'tan give the Necrontyr? By the looks of it, the Necrontyr already had god-tier level tech, so it couldn't have been that, and if the necrontyr already had biotransference then they could have put themselves in the metal bodies. You could easily write out the C'tan that way and make it Not-Nagash's doing instead.
In the old book, iirc, the C'tan gave the Necrons "immortality", or bio-transference, as well as some of the more powerful bits of tech, such as advanced spatio-temporal manipulation, which allowed them to keep up with the Old One's warp shenanigans.
It would seem that there was no real reason to summon the C'tan now; what's the point of getting help from gods if you are one already?
Yeah, the old book implies that the C'Tan gave the Necrons their FTL and perhaps a few other new technologies, but the Necrontyr were already far beyond the Old Ones when it came to every other non-warp based technology. The Old Ones' only advantages were the webway/FTL and harnessing the warp for power and/or weapons the Necrontyr couldn't defend against.
As for immortality, I like to believe the Necrontyr had the means for biotransferrence but not the will. They might have had a strong taboo against altering themselves, my preferred explanation for their vulnerability to space cancer shenanigans, but millions of years of constant war and loss, having been pushed back into their cradle-grave worlds, and one smooth-talking star god may have been enough to tip the Necronlords and Immortals into a tragic Captain Ahab state of mind where they would sacrifice their principles, their culture, their bodies and their people in the name of revenge. They piled upon the Old Ones' polychromatic humps the sum of all the general rage and hate felt by their whole race from the primogenitor on down; and then, as if their chests had been Heavy Gauss cannon, they burst their room temperature(?) hearts' nadion blast upon it.
The bulk of the Necrontyr were transferred against their will.
Yeah, the old book implies that the C'Tan gave the Necrons their FTL and perhaps a few other new technologies, but the Necrontyr were already far beyond the Old Ones when it came to every other non-warp based technology. The Old Ones' only advantages were the webway/FTL and harnessing the warp for power and/or weapons the Necrontyr couldn't defend against.
As for immortality, I like to believe the Necrontyr had the means for biotransferrence but not the will. They might have had a strong taboo against altering themselves, my preferred explanation for their vulnerability to space cancer shenanigans, but millions of years of constant war and loss, having been pushed back into their cradle-grave worlds, and one smooth-talking star god may have been enough to tip the Necronlords and Immortals into a tragic Captain Ahab state of mind where they would sacrifice their principles, their culture, their bodies and their people in the name of revenge. They piled upon the Old Ones' polychromatic humps the sum of all the general rage and hate felt by their whole race from the primogenitor on down; and then, as if their chests had been Heavy Gauss cannon, they burst their room temperature(?) hearts' nadion blast upon it.
The bulk of the Necrontyr were transferred against their will.
Yeah I like the explanation that the Overlords and Immortals were hell-bent on revenge against the Old Ones, and sold the souls of their entire people to bring that to fruition. That's a strong bit of narrative there.
I also love the term 'cradle-grave worlds'. Very evocative. Definitely stealing that
~4100
~1660
