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 Sherrypie wrote:
-snip-

Let me make thissimpler. LI is 1/4 40k scale. Nominally (in the minds of fanboys who remember when the minis were actually 28mm and refuse to acknowledge that the scale creep thats occurred over the past 20 years means its no longer 28mm), that means its 1/4 of 28mm, which would be 7mm, not 6mm. A modern Cadian mini stands more like 32mm erect, which actually puts 1/4 scale at 8mm. Imagine that. The new HH Marines are between 36-40mm roughly in their most erect poses, which at 1/4 would be 9-10mm.

And on a tabletop the difference between 6-8mm isn't that much tbh

It honestly don't matter a single gak.

It actually matters a lot, it's a 33% difference in size. For larger units you're talking about pretty significant and very noticeable variations in size.

It matters in terms of coherent model sizes. It may matter if they aren't using area terrain rules in terms of height, and it may matter depending on rules when it comes to base size.

You guys are repeating a discussion I have seen on historicals message boards for at least the last two decades, it's a very common occurrence when you are mixing miniatures from different manufacturers.

In that instance you get both people arguing for exact uniformity and those arguing it's not necessary and/or noticeable. I'll disregard for a moment The_Real_Chris's comment about base sizes/dimensions, as that's a different thing and obviously you need to make sure your army follows that rule.

My own feelings follow a principle of 'does it look right?' If I mount vanguard marines (approx 8-8.5mm) on the same base with classic 6mm marines there is an obvious disparity looking at the base (I find you can get away with it with Orks, but not for Marines as they are more uniform). But, if I have a base of one unit in one area, and another a few feet away on the tabletop? I think it looks fine.

But, I think this is very much a subjective thing. I'm quite relaxed about it, but I've heard of people spend insane amounts of money trying to get OOP Napoleonics miniatures (that were cast in the 80s) because they are not willing to get a new plastic equivalent, despite there only being a few mm size difference on a 28mm scale mini! And personally, I would find playing against a grey horde army much more unpleasant than someone who is even more relaxed about scales than I am - but YMMV!

I play a lot of 6mm Moderns which is actually two scales (1/285th and 1/300th) the difference is tiny but noticeable if you know what you are looking for but I have never come across anyone having an issue playing against either or a mix.

That said though I am interested to see how all the guesstemated scaled prints hold up against the official models.

chaos0xomega wrote:
It actually matters a lot, it's a 33% difference in size. For larger units you're talking about pretty significant and very noticeable variations in size.

Not for the infantry, as the base size is all that matters.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Sherrypie wrote:
-snip-

Let me make thissimpler. LI is 1/4 40k scale. Nominally (in the minds of fanboys who remember when the minis were actually 28mm and refuse to acknowledge that the scale creep thats occurred over the past 20 years means its no longer 28mm), that means its 1/4 of 28mm, which would be 7mm, not 6mm. A modern Cadian mini stands more like 32mm erect, which actually puts 1/4 scale at 8mm. Imagine that. The new HH Marines are between 36-40mm roughly in their most erect poses, which at 1/4 would be 9-10mm.

Making things simple, you are slightly incorrect here and that relates to what I previously said on *scale* versus *size*. For one, that modern Cadian mini is a particularly bad example of non-creep:



The modern baseline Cadians and Kriegers are slimmer and have less heroically oversized proportions, but that's it. They are even smaller than 20 year old Vostroyans. The situation here is the same as it was with the advent of Primaris marines: the scale isn't meaningfully changing, they're just finally making the models align more consistently with each other and the fictional background, where marines should tower over regular mortals (and have abdomens, damn if the old marines don't look like child soldiers). That's not changing the scale as much as it is finally aligning to one properly after decades of handwaving.

As for the nominal numbers, remember that "x mm" is a colloquial moniker rather than an exact number in most cases just like 28 mm has worked for half a century while there's been discrepancies between various manufacturers. 7 mm for our regular 180 cm reference human would be around 1:260 scale, which is still within the 1:250 - 1:300 bracket of "6 mm", with that sprinkle of "heroic" in it for exaggerated weapons and limbs. And as for "imagine that", we don't have to imagine when we've been able to reliably measure the situation for over five years now after AT launched. Compared to the canonical numbers for titan heights given by GW in their technical drawings (AT rulebooks for the latest printings, but basically the same as they've been for most of this millenium in Apocalypse books and the like), the AT models end up around 1:267 or rounded to 1:270 in scale, which means that our 180 cm reference human model would wind up around 6.7 mm tall (thus, "heroic 6 mm"). This also aligns with many other observations the community has made over the same five years, like looking at the various doors in titans and the AT terrain kits GW has made, which certainly aligns better with regular humans who are very much not 8 mm tall.

See here for example, on the right side of this image a smaller door in the large door (2018 AT plastic) next to a 90's space marine tactical who measures exactly 6 mm tall.

chaos0xomega wrote:It actually matters a lot, it's a 33% difference in size. For larger units you're talking about pretty significant and very noticeable variations in size.

In real life gaming terms, no, it doesn't. Epic players have dealt with size discrepansies for decades and it hasn't been any particularly problematic. For example, here are some pictures of our recent games where we're happily mixing old 90's models, larger modern prints, AT / AI models from GW and third party metals. It doesn't jump out badly even in the harsh zoom that a camera gives you, and even less when you're looking at stuff at over an arm's length.






Spot the old guardsman / crewmate crouching by the armpit door


And ultimately, from across the table, it's all a wash:





With larger units like Baneblades and such, yes, there will be a noticable difference between oldest models and modern models, but that's not due to changing the scaling as much as it is, once again, finally getting the scale done correctly in a way that is internally cohesive (which old Epics were not, the infantry was in a different scale to the tanks which were in different scale to the titans and so on).

And that's what matters, really: having a nice, cohesive line of small scale soldiers on the FLGS shelves for more people to play with.

Funnier yet: usually "X mm" scale is measured to the eyes (or rather, just as frequently as to the top of the head).

I'm one for voting that, yes, there is a difference between 6mm and 8mm. I printed my Marines at 8mm, and have some Vanguard not-Imperial-Guard that are 6mm, and the 6mm look like midgets next to the 8mm Marines... then I have my old Epic40k Marines that were closer to 5mm and they look like midgets next to the 6mm Vanguard models.

6mm to 8mm is like a 6 foot person standing next to an 8 foot person, it is noticeable even when they are a long way away

Maybe you personally don't care, and maybe Wargamers have been dealing with scaling discrepancies for decades.... but that doesn't mean it doesn't make a difference

8 mm *tall* marines are obviously *taller* than 6 mm guardsmen, because they should be but they are still in the same scale, which *isn't* 8 mm

 Sherrypie wrote:
8 mm *tall* marines are obviously *taller* than 6 mm guardsmen, because they should be but they are still in the same scale, which *isn't* 8 mm

Thing is the marines are taller than 8mm, and the guardsmen are taller than 6mm, which means they *arent* 6mm.

 Sherrypie wrote:
8 mm *tall* marines are obviously *taller* than 6 mm guardsmen, because they should be but they are still in the same scale, which *isn't* 8 mm

From my measurements, the Solar Auxilia are going to be about 7 to 7.5mm to the eye, and about 7.5 to 8mm to the top of the head, Marines are going to be 8 to 8.5mm to the eye. I call 40k 32mm scale, I call nuEpic 1/4 of 40k scale, therefore nuEpic is 8mm to me

So I'm going to call that 8mm, regardless what size the hatch on the back of a titan happens to be (because surely humans would never make undersized hatches for military vehicles)

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I'm one for voting that, yes, there is a difference between 6mm and 8mm. I printed my Marines at 8mm, and have some Vanguard not-Imperial-Guard that are 6mm, and the 6mm look like midgets next to the 8mm Marines... then I have my old Epic40k Marines that were closer to 5mm and they look like midgets next to the 6mm Vanguard models.

6mm to 8mm is like a 6 foot person standing next to an 8 foot person, it is noticeable even when they are a long way away

Maybe you personally don't care, and maybe Wargamers have been dealing with scaling discrepancies for decades.... but that doesn't mean it doesn't make a difference

It might make a visual difference at 10 cm, yes. It won't make a difference in gameplay because they're on bases anyways.

The old plastic SMs are really really tiny, though, true xD. Except the scouts ^^

In hindsight I was foolish trying to make a placatory post over something that has had spilled much blood, even fatwahs declared, probably ever since wargaming existed

Think Sherry's posts above do a pretty good job of showing how little it matters at Epic scale, and sweet baby Jesus and the holy donkey stay away from historicals if that is not acceptable to you.

I will say, just do what feels right for *your* army. Your gaming group does the same. If you have micrometer eyes and pick out one marine standing 2mm taller than another with a line of sight check from two tables away and in-between someone's sweaty cargo pants then 'the most important rule' applies, be polite and please keep it to yourself

So, can we leave the scale/size thread derail now and go back to discussing the LI release?

I saw indications that Unit cards are launch and direct only, will not come back.

Tiles are not listed in independent stockist pricing, indicating they are gw only. (No problem for me personally, I dont want uniform Urban with perpendicular roads)

Strangest thing though is the separate rulebook might be GW only as it's not on the list. I am hoping that's not correct and it's simply released later on.

 westiebestie wrote:


I saw indications that Unit cards are launch and direct only, will not come back.

Do we know if these unit cards are for the stuff that is just in the rulebook or if it includes the second wave units as well?

I wouldn't sweat about the hardback rulebook, ebay will be flooded with them soon after launch

The unit cards however, might become hard to source if that's the case

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Sherrypie wrote:
8 mm *tall* marines are obviously *taller* than 6 mm guardsmen, because they should be but they are still in the same scale, which *isn't* 8 mm

From my measurements, the Solar Auxilia are going to be about 7 to 7.5mm to the eye, and about 7.5 to 8mm to the top of the head, Marines are going to be 8 to 8.5mm to the eye. I call 40k 32mm scale, I call nuEpic 1/4 of 40k scale, therefore nuEpic is 8mm to me

So I'm going to call that 8mm, regardless what size the hatch on the back of a titan happens to be (because surely humans would never make undersized hatches for military vehicles)

Who measures hatches when you can measure whole titan...


Handy things these measuring tapes.

you'd really want to use calipers for that, less room for error, more precise measurement down to fractions of a mm.

 westiebestie wrote:
So, can we leave the scale/size thread derail now and go back to discussing the LI release?

I saw indications that Unit cards are launch and direct only, will not come back.

Tiles are not listed in independent stockist pricing, indicating they are gw only. (No problem for me personally, I dont want uniform Urban with perpendicular roads)

Strangest thing though is the separate rulebook might be GW only as it's not on the list. I am hoping that's not correct and it's simply released later on.

The GW facebook post suggested that everything is going to be available long term. But then again, I never trust what they say and we only have to look at necromunda to see how they plan to support this game.

For the cards, I'd say they will be sold out within 7 minutes, never restocked again, missing anything thats not available at time of release, and actually outdated within 2 hours of the games actual release day.

I was tempted to get them on the very slim chance I do ever fancy playing the new rules (very doubtful, but I'll try any game at least once). But then remembered how bad their website is anyway and want to make sure I get my tiles at least. So gave up even trying to snag a set.

 ingtaer wrote:
I play a lot of 6mm Moderns which is actually two scales (1/285th and 1/300th) the difference is tiny but noticeable if you know what you are looking for but I have never come across anyone having an issue playing against either or a mix.

That said though I am interested to see how all the guesstemated scaled prints hold up against the official models.

Aren't you forgetting all those 1:350 plastic aircraft you can get...

 RexHavoc wrote:

 westiebestie wrote:
So, can we leave the scale/size thread derail now and go back to discussing the LI release?

I saw indications that Unit cards are launch and direct only, will not come back.

Tiles are not listed in independent stockist pricing, indicating they are gw only. (No problem for me personally, I dont want uniform Urban with perpendicular roads)

Strangest thing though is the separate rulebook might be GW only as it's not on the list. I am hoping that's not correct and it's simply released later on.

The GW facebook post suggested that everything is going to be available long term. But then again, I never trust what they say and we only have to look at necromunda to see how they plan to support this game.

For the cards, I'd say they will be sold out within 7 minutes, never restocked again, missing anything thats not available at time of release, and actually outdated within 2 hours of the games actual release day.

You need to check again, they confirmed cards are one-time, gone when they're gone.

And yeah, probably as you say regarding their longevity, sadly.

Anyway for the off chance that this a game they won't faq/errata, like big scale HH, I want the cards as the prospects of looking up all these weapon profiles spread over multiple pages and books, until we learn them, will make a potentially slow game painfully slow.

Sometimes I wish GW didn't do cards - they clearly factor cards into their design ethos, but their updating policies and stocking rates means that they are of limited functional use. Esp if you come to a game/army long after they've been released and card stocks are basically a case of hunting every3rd party store and GW store to see if any have a set hiding on the shelf.

Yeah, agreed.

But, this is the Epic 30k community. We are used to doing stuff without GW. Models, rules, why not cards.

So I believe/hope that not long after release someone will put together useful cards that we can print.

An army builder would be swell too, given the granularity of points & upgrades. But I guess that would be taken down. :/

I still don't get why GW can make a free and functional army bulider for AoS that honestly works well and is great to dip into to test out the builds for a new army; but can't do it for other games

40k is a big game with a big community behind it that will keep coming back no matter what nonsense GW throws at them.

AoS is a small game with a small community that needs to be protected and nurtured. AoS prices are generally lower than equivalent 40k prices (compare the price of a Vanguard box to a Combat Patrol box), and the policies surrounding the way AoS is marketed and sold is generally more consumer friendly than 40k is. They are doing it to drive and accelerate growth by making AoS more attractive to enter than 40k, basically.

 Overread wrote:
I still don't get why GW can make a free and functional army bulider for AoS that honestly works well and is great to dip into to test out the builds for a new army; but can't do it for other games

It is really good actually. I've recently been collecting a few bits for AoS and was pleasantly surprised to see the App. Would be nice if something similar comes along for Legions, as although there is a community built army builder for Armageddon it's not on the same level as the Yaktribe/Necromunda gang builder (which is really awesome)

40k is much to my surprise even better. Generally identical but it has huge life improvement. Going from list to reference and back to builder gets you straight to list you had open.

Wish that came to aos side. And similar to LI as well