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 Gert wrote:
The first depiction was in Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness.

The Primarchs didn't exist, Legions were Chapters, the Inquisition was around, and there were only five Loyalist survivors of Isstvan V before it was even called the Dropsite Massacre.

The idea that all three Primarchs were killed likely comes from the general idea in-universe that if their Legions died, so did they.
Obviously, that didn't happen but that was the general belief among the Loyalist forces for many years until Vulkan and Corax re-appeared.

I’ve managed to find and dig out my old WDs with the IA articles.

Interestingly the Alpha Legion one repeats the ‘only 5 survivors’ thing (and says that means a death toll of ~30,000).

Iron Hands says Ferrus’ fate is unknown, he’s believed dead but there are other stories of his survival.

Salamanders doesn’t mention the drop site massacre at all, but says Vulkan disappeared a millennium after the legion was founded, which would put it post Heresy. Also, while not explicitly stated, it implies Vulkan was about for the reorganisation into a chapter.

Raven Guard obviously has the whole post massacre monstrosities plot.

Lord Zarkov wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
I will have to look but my recollection of the earliest descriptions of the drop site massacres is that THREE loyalist primarchs were killed in one swoop - Ferris, vulkan and iirc corvus.

But they decided thatcthr HH had to be a big days of our lives melodrama and so couldn't kill off too many or they couldn't milk them for dozens of books.

It had changed even by the very early 2000s Index Astartes series, which was well before the novel series.

There’s Vulkan being involved in Guilliman’s reorganisation as I noted earlier (though IIRC it still had implications he died elsewhere), plus Corax had a huge storyline of what he was up to after the massacre and his desperate measures to rebuild his legion.

Not sure how much (if any) of that dates back to 2nd or earlier, but it was there in 3rd.

The index astartes and the sabertooth Horus heresy card game were both produced around the same time and combined to rewrite the heresy. All the modern story and imagery is found within the card game - if you can get a hold of the visions of hersy books I recommend it. They're beautiful and cover the whole story.

The original index for the salamanders doesn't have anything to say about his opinion on the codex or anything relating to the crusade/Heresy. It's all just vulkand legend and chapter organisation.

Gert wrote:The first depiction was in Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness.

The Primarchs didn't exist, Legions were Chapters, the Inquisition was around, and there were only five Loyalist survivors of Isstvan V before it was even called the Dropsite Massacre.

The idea that all three Primarchs were killed likely comes from the general idea in-universe that if their Legions died, so did they.
Obviously, that didn't happen but that was the general belief among the Loyalist forces for many years until Vulkan and Corax re-appeared.

I just looked at the 2nd ed chaos codex and it still has that same information, 5 surviving marines with geneseed and the 3 loyalist legions completely destroyed by the traitor sandwich. This line is still present in the alpha Legion index article.

I'll see if I can find the epic books.





Bringing it back to Russ - the 2nd ed chaos codex specifically says that the emperor sent Russ to 'devestate' prospero after declaring Magnus and the sons heretics for using occult powers to try and warn him.


So there's another example of the crappening of Russ. They retconned him being tricked by Horus instead of unambiguously following the emperor's command.


Which is partly why the modern story seems weird. Now Russ is tricked and goes from potential non violent arrest to full on genocide and the emperor is just 'shrugs, thanks russ' like nothing unusual happened.

Just to point out, Horus ordering Russ to kill Magnus was just part of it.

Russ didn't like Magnus, the VIth had only recently just spoken out against the XVth at Nikea and at that same event believed a member of the XVth had tried to attack Kasper Hawser.
Valdor also supported the execution of Magnus and the XVth because he was a massive D-bag who hated the Primarchs and Astartes. He argued strongly for Russ to put an end to Magnus and the XVth.

You also have to remember that the word of Horus was the word of the Emperor. By the time the order came, it would have been too late to get it verified from Terra before the XVth had time to either retaliate or mount proper defences.

Yeah but the fanbois who enjoy the Russ hate train (it's pretty strong amongst the media consumers I've found) don't consider any of that legitimate. Russ still enacted it and so it's his fault.

Had it remained an unambiguous please go murder that heretic Magnus for me Russ from the emperor, then there isn't anywhere to manoeuvre in that conversation.

 Hellebore wrote:

Lord Zarkov wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
I will have to look but my recollection of the earliest descriptions of the drop site massacres is that THREE loyalist primarchs were killed in one swoop - Ferris, vulkan and iirc corvus.

But they decided thatcthr HH had to be a big days of our lives melodrama and so couldn't kill off too many or they couldn't milk them for dozens of books.

It had changed even by the very early 2000s Index Astartes series, which was well before the novel series.

There’s Vulkan being involved in Guilliman’s reorganisation as I noted earlier (though IIRC it still had implications he died elsewhere), plus Corax had a huge storyline of what he was up to after the massacre and his desperate measures to rebuild his legion.

Not sure how much (if any) of that dates back to 2nd or earlier, but it was there in 3rd.

The index astartes and the sabertooth Horus heresy card game were both produced around the same time and combined to rewrite the heresy. All the modern story and imagery is found within the card game - if you can get a hold of the visions of hersy books I recommend it. They're beautiful and cover the whole story.

The original index for the salamanders doesn't have anything to say about his opinion on the codex or anything relating to the crusade/Heresy. It's all just vulkand legend and chapter organisation.

I’ve got the original ’Collected Visions’ compilation, yeah that was an awesome set of books.

You’re right Vulkan’s opinion on CA is not in their IA article (just checked). It’s not in the UM or IF one either which are the other places I’d expect. I’m not sure where it was then, but pretty sure it was something from 3rd Ed era. Codex maybe?

 Hellebore wrote:
Yeah but the fanbois who enjoy the Russ hate train (it's pretty strong amongst the media consumers I've found) don't consider any of that legitimate.

That's because the average Warhammer fan has the reading comprehension of a six-year-old. They tend to be given information but because it doesn't conform to their very specific interpretation of events they ignore it.

For extra wholesome Russ points (as much as you get in 40k) bill king wrote a short story called the lion and the wolf that goes into greater detail about them from their first punch up to the end of the heresy.

It balances out painting them both bad and good, rather than flanderising it.

Thanks to memnoch for giving me the wd issue it was in (233).

 Da Boss wrote:
The Wulfen used to be a secret shame of the chapter and the all wulfen army of the 13th Black Crusade in 3e was supposed to be a big surprise.

Back before fenrisian wolves were failed aspirants mutated into wolves, and before the space wolves rode around on giant wolves, and rode in sleds pulled by wolves and so on.

The 5e book I remember as being particularly bad - everything was Wolf-this and Wolf-that, it was really silly. Similar things happened with most of the chapters though to be fair - all the ones who got their own codex got warped much further away from what they used to be to make them more unique and different. I think that was a mistake overall.

The 5th edition Codex made me quit 40K. I liked the Wolves as Vikings In Space kicking butt and taking names with a wolf subtheme.
That Codex threw out everything cool about the Wolves in favour of Wolfy McWolf with WoldBlade and Wolf Pelt and wolf tooth necklace and mark of the wolf grimderp.

I never got to the Space Wolf novels in the HH. I quit after the utter stupidity of the alpha legion book.

Prospero Burns is actually very good. The small snippets of the VIth in Scars are also very good.

Bran Dawri wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
The Wulfen used to be a secret shame of the chapter and the all wulfen army of the 13th Black Crusade in 3e was supposed to be a big surprise.

Back before fenrisian wolves were failed aspirants mutated into wolves, and before the space wolves rode around on giant wolves, and rode in sleds pulled by wolves and so on.

The 5e book I remember as being particularly bad - everything was Wolf-this and Wolf-that, it was really silly. Similar things happened with most of the chapters though to be fair - all the ones who got their own codex got warped much further away from what they used to be to make them more unique and different. I think that was a mistake overall.

The 5th edition Codex made me quit 40K. I liked the Wolves as Vikings In Space kicking butt and taking names with a wolf subtheme.
That Codex threw out everything cool about the Wolves in favour of Wolfy McWolf with WoldBlade and Wolf Pelt and wolf tooth necklace and mark of the wolf grimderp.

I never got to the Space Wolf novels in the HH. I quit after the utter stupidity of the alpha legion book.

Interesting. So do you feel that they *removed* viking elements, or did you just get weirded out by the excess use of the word "wolf"? Because 5th edition was my first exposure to SW, and there was zero confusion to my mind that the army including a Thor reference and a Loki reference lead by an Odin reference were space vikings.

Gert wrote:Prospero Burns is actually very good. The small snippets of the VIth in Scars are also very good.

Very much agreed. PB was one of the first HH books I read (a confusing starting place), and I kind of like it even more in hindsight. Like, there's that scene where Russ is basically pleading with the air (hoping Magnus is watching him) for Magnus to stand down so that Russ doesn't have to do what he's about to do. It shows a certain fondness between Russ and Magnus despite their differences and adds to the tragedy. And when you realize that this is all coming from a guy who has done this sort of thing before, it adds a lot to Russ's character, I think. Especially given that double-think also appears to be a big part of his mentality.

Honestly, I never find myself hating the wolves in HH. They're always fun when they're on-screen even if I don't always like what they're doing or how they're doing it. If the HH books don't make them look "good", it at least keeps them interesting.

Prospero Burns is a very weird, very fun book. I like it a lot. It's got a really odd structure and plays a lot of games with perception and memory in the point of view character. And the way the Fang is imagined is honestly brilliant, and terrifying. It also makes the Space Wolves pretty cool. It's a shame I don't really enjoy the sister novel as much, and I think the ending kinda goes crazy. I also prefer the Emperor sending Russ, and I think Russ wouldn't take such an order from anyone else.

If they were like that in the rest of the Heresy I think most of us would be pretty happy, but they're not. They're often comedy one note barbarians for the various pious straight man heroes to deal with.

As to the 5e book, yeah, the overuse of the word "wolf" did have an impact, but also the space marines riding wolf cavalry, the wolf sled, and so on. That wasn't part of their deal before that edition, and it was pretty jarring.

5e kinda did the same thing to the Blood Angels, really making them something different to how they were before. I think it is a dilemma that they face after making all these bespoke chapters - they need to justify it by making them very different to each other.

Personally, I'd prefer 40K without special superhumans getting so much of the limelight, but that ship had already sailed in second edition.

Splog wrote:

(With support) they smash another legion completely on their home territory, largely taking them out apart from some remnants.

You put "with support" here as a brief mention because to really examine this doesn't leave the Wolves looking particularly good. They had the aid of nearly a thousand Custodes, which is frankly staggering. Depending on which numbers you choose that means that they had a Custode for every 10-60 Thousand Sons. They had 3,000 Sisters of Silence on the field, against a Legion which specialized in psychic power and more than that relied on it to function. And indeed, the Thousand Sons were holding just fine until the Sisters were deployed. But more than all of that, they had the assistance of Magnus himself who brought Prospero's shields down and refused to fight until the last moment.

To say that the Space Wolves defeated the Thousand Sons while downplaying how they stacked the deck in their favor is disingenuous, don't you think? And this will be a recurring theme of the Space Wolves. Any major victory they claim is reliant on context and even plot contrivances.

Russ kills mortal Magnus,

Yes, Russ, assisted by his Wolves, defeats Magnus, which Leman Russ later realizes was solely because he apparently was gifted incredibly high resistance to psychic power, and without that advantage he would have died. So Russ' sole definite win over another Primarch has context that rather takes the wind from his sails. This is a recurring theme.

scares off Alpharius

The physically weakest Primarch save maybe Lorgar by the way.

and beats Horus in combat giving him a good old fashion spear-stabbing, and that would have been it if it wasn't for plot-armour and "oh maybe my magic spear has saved Horus" hesitation.

It's kind of ironic that you decry Horus' plot armour while ignoring that the only reason Leman Russ could stand against Horus at all was because of his magical plot device spear which enabled him to run Horus through with no real effort on his part and, once his plot device spear was no longer a factor Russ was smacked around like a baby seal.

So to reiterate: Russ was only able to stand against Horus due to a plot contrivance (as per usual for the character), and when on the cusp proceeded to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. So the grim Emperor's Executioner who per his own word alone has the resolve to do the dirty deeds that must be done chokes and gives into sentimentality and fails.

The Space Wolves are inconsistently portrayed, but they had a pretty good war.

Naw man.

The new First Founding book says "While history notes them as especially effective at tackling other Space Marine forces..."

Magnus' in War of the Fang view of the Space Wolves: ‘So strong! You Wolves were always my father’s most potent weapons. What could I ever do to withstand that? Even at the height of my powers, what could I ever have done?’ and ‘They’re still fighting? Impressive. Though perhaps I should not be surprised. It is their expertise, after all.’ ‘They are desperate, and as savage as beasts.’ Magnus lost his smile. ‘I no longer think of them as animals, Ahmuz, though I once did. I now think of them as the purest of us all. Incorruptible. Single-minded. The perfection of my father’s vision.’

This is what's known as "telling and not showing". Russ and the Wolves are "said" to be badasses during the Heresy. There is a lot of "hype". But what we actually see is Russ only winning when the plot is stacked in his favor, Space Wolves being written into books like Fear to Tread for the sole purpose of being ripped to pieces and eaten alive by their Blood Angel allies (funniest gak ever btw), having an unnecessary plotline where they try to assassinate Horus and despite being given a cheat code to make this possible choking at the last moment, and literally not having a single win against a Primarch that doesn't involve heavy context. Even his confrontation with the Lion showcased Leman Russ, allegedly one of the best combatants of his brothers, being easily beaten blade to blade, before engaging in a fistfight with said Primarch who is demonstrably not especially good at fist fights (Lion was manhandled by Curze hand to hand even after Curze was stabbed in the back, though to be fair Curze is admittedly probably the best down and dirty brawler of the Primarchs), and then getting knocked out. Over a conflict he started due to his own strupidity as OP points out.

OP, do not listen to posts like these. Your gut instinct is right and the Wolves are indeed portrayed as incompetent butt monkeys in the Heresy. The good news is that this is mostly just relegated to the Heresy: they aren't portrayed quite so disfavorably elsewhere for the most part.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:
Prospero Burns is actually very good.

She said, with a wet-leopard growl.

I said very good, not perfect.

My first Space Wolves were the William King novels. They were well-realized and fairly grounded compared to what they became in 5th edition. Prospero Burns was kind of a shock in how badly portrayed the wolves were, how try-hard they came across instead of competent, and how hilariously goofy their wet leopard growls were.

I later read one of the Chris Wraight books that tried to patch the two together, and it was fine. Still, it didn’t convince me the Space Wolves aren’t a joke.

The "wet leopard growl" bit made me google. It is apparently a real quote from the book, but I don't have context. A leopard growl sounds cool enough (weird to go for a feline though), but the wet part is throwing me off. Is it

- "He growled, spraying gobs of spit all over whoever he's growling at"
- "He growled, but there were also some gargling sounds as he half-choked on all the saliva in his mouth"
- "He growled like a soggy oversized housecat"
- other? These options aren't too serious, but I'm honestly struggling how to imagine something cool from that description.

Better not to think about it.

The phrase is used over and over again in the book. It’s not really that bad a description, but it becomes funny through repetition.

Think of a big cat growling in a movie. Not roaring, growling. The fuller, less dry version of that sound is what comes out of leather-masked, performatively-illiterate Space Wolves.

Yeah, I've read Prospero Burns and it is in there. I get what he was going for, as a writer. But you're advised to cut down on repetition, in all aspects, too.

Nevelon took photos of the bill king story I referred to.

You can see the difference in this vs the modern depictions of Russ.

 Nevelon wrote:
Not a pop out. Full 2 page spread.

Whichever book that used "wet leopard growl" on every page every time a Space Wolf said or did something made me start to think that the Space Wolves weren't as awesome and dope as I thought they were.

Oh and "gold pinned eyes" got massively overused too.

And what was with the floating wind hole in The Fang?!

*edit*

D'oh, I just realised Bob already mentioned this. Wet leopard apologies, everyone.

 Hellebore wrote:
What pisses me off the most is that they deliberately retconned Russ to be like this.

He used to have the third most victories after horus and the lion which is one reason he and lion fought, they were neck and neck forever.

Russ was originally a brilliant tactician, but when they retconned the heresy back in early 2000s, they decide that Russ can't stay that way.

Just like they retconned vulkans death at istvaan (going to the ridiculous extreme of having him completely unkillable) etc.

I don't even like them, but if they had stayed the same as you described in 30k, that would have made sense. Now, they are still as arrogant and Marie Sue as before, but with not a single victory during the whole Heresy. Even I pity them... Like, it could have been interesting : Leman starts to question his "executioner" rôle during the Alaxxa Nebules and even his relation to the warp, after being called an hypocrite for using psykers. That's character building ! But no, apparently nothing changed at all from there to the 40th millennium and they are still lame while being constantly overpowered and arrogants. I'm reading Wolfsbane and this time I quite enjoy them, especially Leman Russ, and the whole savage but clever could have been really good, but at the end this whole legion is a missed opportunity

 Tabletop_Magpie wrote:
Whichever book that used "wet leopard growl" on every page every time a Space Wolf said or did something made me start to think that the Space Wolves weren't as awesome and dope as I thought they were.

Oh and "gold pinned eyes" got massively overused too.

And what was with the floating wind hole in The Fang?!

*edit*

D'oh, I just realised Bob already mentioned this. Wet leopard apologies, everyone.

Hah, wet leopard apologies got me

My memory, going back to second edition but certainly not close to infallible is that the wolves were always a mix of werewolfy and vikingy and both could be considered a bit cringe if you're taking it too seriously surely. GW are famously bad at naming stuff, just ask Khorne