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2015/12/03 11:12:44
Subject: Have GW finally started to save themselves?
Yeah, that's the one I mean, and I only picked that because it's the only Mantic boxed starter (other than Mars Attacks) that I own. Like I said, the scenery pieces are nice, though you really need more than what's in the starter box. The game mat isn't really worth much IMO That's like saying Operation Icestorm comes with a game mat, hehehe. The miniatures themselves are not really comparable, IMO, however, and the box price is about the same (super awesome black Friday price notwithstanding).
Don't get me wrong: I think Deadzone is a good value. But, DV, AoS, in terms of model value, are good too, IMO -- certainly, comparable and not horribly lopsided. Calth, in a different way, but that's more expensive than DZ, so I didn't mention it.
DV I will grant you, but the figures in AoS just aren't that useful if you don't like the game that they are attached to.
Dark Vengeance has figures that can be used with any edition of WH40K, from Rogue Trader on up.
Sigmarines... can also be used with any edition of WH40K, from Rogue Trader on up, but aren't that great for Fantasy.
The Auld Grump
The 3rd edition of WHFB allowed for the creation of any type of warrior with any type of armament. Sigmarines at Oldhammer games is a possibility...
How do you promote your Hobby? - Legoburner "I run some crappy wargaming website "
2015/12/03 13:29:26
Subject: Have GW finally started to save themselves?
Yeah, that's the one I mean, and I only picked that because it's the only Mantic boxed starter (other than Mars Attacks) that I own. Like I said, the scenery pieces are nice, though you really need more than what's in the starter box. The game mat isn't really worth much IMO That's like saying Operation Icestorm comes with a game mat, hehehe. The miniatures themselves are not really comparable, IMO, however, and the box price is about the same (super awesome black Friday price notwithstanding).
Don't get me wrong: I think Deadzone is a good value. But, DV, AoS, in terms of model value, are good too, IMO -- certainly, comparable and not horribly lopsided. Calth, in a different way, but that's more expensive than DZ, so I didn't mention it.
DV I will grant you, but the figures in AoS just aren't that useful if you don't like the game that they are attached to.
Dark Vengeance has figures that can be used with any edition of WH40K, from Rogue Trader on up.
Sigmarines... can also be used with any edition of WH40K, from Rogue Trader on up, but aren't that great for Fantasy.
The Auld Grump
The 3rd edition of WHFB allowed for the creation of any type of warrior with any type of armament. Sigmarines at Oldhammer games is a possibility...
Sure, if you're looking to be relentlessly mocked by the Oldhammer community
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
2015/12/03 14:19:42
Subject: Have GW finally started to save themselves?
I hadn't heard of that one until you mentioned it, which does not reflect any rules quality of course, but perhaps reflects on the popularity ad success of the system.
Perhaps it is the exception that proves the rule.
To be fair to FW, GW have only done three and a half new games in the past 10 years, so neither company has got a great track record of development.
I hadn't heard of that one until you mentioned it, which does not reflect any rules quality of course, but perhaps reflects on the popularity ad success of the system.
Perhaps it is the exception that proves the rule.
To be fair to FW, GW have only done three and a half new games in the past 10 years, so neither company has got a great track record of development.
Aeronautica Imperialis was a amazing game, the problem was that the rules involved buying a FW rule book. A expensive order direct from the FW website and shipped from the UK. Made the game very expensive for people to take a risk on, with no way of knowing what the rules were before playing.
If they still have some of the people who worked on that book in the company and be able to get the books threw gw prime then we will be in for a treat.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/03 14:51:52
2015/12/03 15:57:15
Subject: Have GW finally started to save themselves?
I hadn't heard of that one until you mentioned it, which does not reflect any rules quality of course, but perhaps reflects on the popularity ad success of the system.
Perhaps it is the exception that proves the rule.
To be fair to FW, GW have only done three and a half new games in the past 10 years, so neither company has got a great track record of development.
Aeronautica Imperialis was a amazing game, the problem was that the rules involved buying a FW rule book. A expensive order direct from the FW website and shipped from the UK. Made the game very expensive for people to take a risk on, with no way of knowing what the rules were before playing.
If they still have some of the people who worked on that book in the company and be able to get the books threw gw prime then we will be in for a treat.
Didn't they run a 28mm game of Aeronautica Imperialis at Games Day one year? I seem to recall some incredible photos of the game in a White Dwarf.
2015/12/03 16:01:56
Subject: Have GW finally started to save themselves?
I love Aeronautica Imperialis and still play it pretty regularly. Super simple to learn, and still hard to master. It has a lot of replay-ability to and works well with one-offs and campaigns.
I wish it had a Pilot experience system, but at the Airspace Forum we just built it ourselves and added it to the rules compilation of new aircraft, rules, and missions.
The main creator Warwick Kinrade has moved on, but as a freelancer, he can be hired back for projects.
****Added Bonus Content*** Conspiracy Theory time! AI got axed with all the Specialist Games, but it was also the "Summer fo Flyers". I think that may have played a big part in the games death as GW didn't want these old boring flyers to cramp their new toys being released.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/03 16:08:41
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2015/12/03 20:22:48
Subject: Have GW finally started to save themselves?
TheAuldGrump wrote: DV I will grant you, but the figures in AoS just aren't that useful if you don't like the game that they are attached to.
Dark Vengeance has figures that can be used with any edition of WH40K, from Rogue Trader on up.
Sigmarines... can also be used with any edition of WH40K, from Rogue Trader on up, but aren't that great for Fantasy.
The Auld Grump
Yeah, sure, but you could say the same thing about Deadzone -- the models aren't really generically useful, though the terrain is.
Uhm, the Corporation figures are about as Generic science fiction armored infantry as you can get.
You can take their being generic as a good thing or as a bad thing, but there is little to nothing that prevents them from being used with any SF rules.
The Plague are fairly unique, but they are only a part of the box - which means that there are two generic items, Corp and Terrain, and only the Plague being a stand out.
So, while I could say such a thing, I would mostly be lying....
The Auld Grump - a friend uses the Corp for his Imperial Guard.
Yeah, that's the one I mean, and I only picked that because it's the only Mantic boxed starter (other than Mars Attacks) that I own. Like I said, the scenery pieces are nice, though you really need more than what's in the starter box. The game mat isn't really worth much IMO That's like saying Operation Icestorm comes with a game mat, hehehe. The miniatures themselves are not really comparable, IMO, however, and the box price is about the same (super awesome black Friday price notwithstanding).
Don't get me wrong: I think Deadzone is a good value. But, DV, AoS, in terms of model value, are good too, IMO -- certainly, comparable and not horribly lopsided. Calth, in a different way, but that's more expensive than DZ, so I didn't mention it.
DV I will grant you, but the figures in AoS just aren't that useful if you don't like the game that they are attached to.
Dark Vengeance has figures that can be used with any edition of WH40K, from Rogue Trader on up.
Sigmarines... can also be used with any edition of WH40K, from Rogue Trader on up, but aren't that great for Fantasy.
The Auld Grump
The 3rd edition of WHFB allowed for the creation of any type of warrior with any type of armament. Sigmarines at Oldhammer games is a possibility...
Well, yes - but that is more of a testament to the excellence of the 3rd edition rules than to the usability of the Sigmarines. (Third edition remains my favorite incarnation of the game.)
The Auld Grump
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/03 22:30:26
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
2015/12/04 02:19:39
Subject: Have GW finally started to save themselves?
I hadn't heard of that one until you mentioned it, which does not reflect any rules quality of course, but perhaps reflects on the popularity ad success of the system.
Perhaps it is the exception that proves the rule.
To be fair to FW, GW have only done three and a half new games in the past 10 years, so neither company has got a great track record of development.
Never heard of it?
It would be smart to make starter sets of the old IP's hopefully redesigned to be inline with current designs, but if they are the same price as Battle at Calth, i will pass.
Easy E wrote: I love Aeronautica Imperialis and still play it pretty regularly. Super simple to learn, and still hard to master. It has a lot of replay-ability to and works well with one-offs and campaigns.
I wish it had a Pilot experience system, but at the Airspace Forum we just built it ourselves and added it to the rules compilation of new aircraft, rules, and missions.
The main creator Warwick Kinrade has moved on, but as a freelancer, he can be hired back for projects.
****Added Bonus Content*** Conspiracy Theory time! AI got axed with all the Specialist Games, but it was also the "Summer fo Flyers". I think that may have played a big part in the games death as GW didn't want these old boring flyers to cramp their new toys being released.
Oh wow, did not realize Aeronautica Imperialis was Warwick's brain child. His WWII ruleset is currently my favorite game to play, but I'm always interested in hearing about the other stuff that he did.
2015/12/04 15:47:24
Subject: Have GW finally started to save themselves?
I hadn't heard of that one until you mentioned it, which does not reflect any rules quality of course, but perhaps reflects on the popularity ad success of the system.
Perhaps it is the exception that proves the rule.
To be fair to FW, GW have only done three and a half new games in the past 10 years, so neither company has got a great track record of development.
Never heard of it?
It would be smart to make starter sets of the old IP's hopefully redesigned to be inline with current designs, but if they are the same price as Battle at Calth, i will pass.
Indeed, though most specialist game models can be (and I have) made with the big two.
I am weary about them because I strongly forsee GW only caring about the models and not the rules.
And all I care about is the rules. I may buy models from them if they're not terrible and since I won't need many of them (and truth be told I always preferred the specialist games anyways), though even when they supported them for awhile GW's didn't let people play specialist games in store (at least in the few ones I've been to) so... if that's still the case when they get rereleased I will completely ignore them, like I do 40k and whatever fantasy is now.
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2015/12/04 16:25:19
Subject: Have GW finally started to save themselves?
I hadn't heard of that one until you mentioned it, which does not reflect any rules quality of course, but perhaps reflects on the popularity ad success of the system.
Perhaps it is the exception that proves the rule.
To be fair to FW, GW have only done three and a half new games in the past 10 years, so neither company has got a great track record of development.
Never heard of it?
It would be smart to make starter sets of the old IP's hopefully redesigned to be inline with current designs, but if they are the same price as Battle at Calth, i will pass.
Indeed, though most specialist game models can be (and I have) made with the big two.
I am weary about them because I strongly forsee GW only caring about the models and not the rules.
And all I care about is the rules. I may buy models from them if they're not terrible and since I won't need many of them (and truth be told I always preferred the specialist games anyways), though even when they supported them for awhile GW's didn't let people play specialist games in store (at least in the few ones I've been to) so... if that's still the case when they get rereleased I will completely ignore them, like I do 40k and whatever fantasy is now.
The strange thing about the return of spec games is that, for once, we're kind of in a win win scenario. These games still have large communities congregated around free, widely available rules. The largest issue these communities have with regards to attracting new players is that the opposite is true when it comes to models.
So if GW releases a bunch of new models but poor rules, spec games are still in a much better position than they are today. Sure, the sustainability would be unstable, but those of us playing BFG or with interest in the other lines will have some option for models. If the rules aren't great, whatever, the old ones are ubiquitous.
Good rules? Hey, even better. Either way I'm fired up.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/04 18:02:00
Thought for the day
2015/12/04 20:38:23
Subject: Have GW finally started to save themselves?
The strange thing about the return of spec games is that, for once, we're kind of in a win win scenario. These games still have large communities congregated around free, widely available rules. The largest issue these communities have with regards to attracting new players is that the opposite is true when it comes to models.
So if GW releases a bunch of new models but poor rules, spec games are still in a much better position than they are today. Sure, the sustainability would be unstable, but those of us playing BFG or with interest in the other lines will have some option for models. If the rules aren't great, whatever, the old ones are ubiquitous.
Good rules? Hey, even better. Either way I'm fired up.
While I like the idea of Specialist Games coming back I am wary of what actually gets released. It could also be that they release more miniatures like AoS where subtle elements could be replaced with more toy-ish proportions and other hijinks to make all of this more IP protectable (whatever that means for GW). And all these new releases could also end up being really, really expensive. That seems to be the trend for their main games and most Specialist Games games don't need that many miniatures (they all are a bit different from the main GW games that tend to be skirmish games that grew into needing huge model numbers). So I think that whatever they release could end up being quite expensive (especially as it's all now somehow part of FW and probably not that widely distributed). Bad rules on top of different aesthetics and costly miniatures might not result in a win-win-win situation.
I want to be optimistic but the company doesn't give me much to be hopeful about. The last Specialst Games release was how many years ago? They have changed as a company and I don't know how all these changed will affect a line of games and miniatures that they haven't looked at in about a decade. How would, for example, Squats or Demiurge look if released by GW of today? Probably not like we remember them and I think something similar could happen to the Specialist Games releases.
2015/12/05 11:45:08
Subject: Re:Have GW finally started to save themselves?
I understand your concern, however the reason to feel positive is that for GW to change themselves back to a more wargamer friendly company only requires them to admit at the highest level that their recent wargamer-unfriendly strategy has been a failure. (I say it has been a failure because their profits come from efficiency, while their sales come from games and have been declining pretty quickly.)
The return of Special Games hopefully is an indicator that GW management want to turn the clock back in some sense. The initiative seems to come from the new CEO.
If this is genuine, they ought to be able to rehire some of the old talent, or at least let their current designers make stuff for wargaming rather than just for the purpose of selling high price model kits.
Kilkrazy wrote: I understand your concern, however the reason to feel positive is that for GW to change themselves back to a more wargamer friendly company only requires them to admit at the highest level that their recent wargamer-unfriendly strategy has been a failure. (I say it has been a failure because their profits come from efficiency, while their sales come from games and have been declining pretty quickly.)
The return of Special Games hopefully is an indicator that GW management want to turn the clock back in some sense. The initiative seems to come from the new CEO.
If this is genuine, they ought to be able to rehire some of the old talent, or at least let their current designers make stuff for wargaming rather than just for the purpose of selling high price model kits.
But do we really think that will happen? The way I see it, bringing back Specialist Games could go two ways:
1) They bring it back, actually support it, and see that this is what they need to go back to (the GW of old) in basically everything that they are doing 2) They bring them back as limited Space Hulk-esque boxes, and never touch them again and/or give them the Dreadfleet treatment and do half-assed versions that nobody wanted, and when they don't sell say "Well, we tried Specialist Games, and they didn't sell!"
Sadly I feel #2 is much more likely, especially since this time around GW is the one going into other's territory. Sure, Deadzone is no Necromunda, but why would anyone trust GW to support SG when they didn't the last time? This actually reminds me of a personal thing in my life: My wife and I are going through a divorce because she basically treated me awful. She would constantly tell me that she still loved me and wanted to work things out on payday, because she wanted me to give her money and if I said no she'd do a 180 and tell me how terrible I am and how I need to leave her alone; if I gave her money she was fine and nice for a day or two, then went right back to treating me like garbage until the next paycheck arrived. The anecdote here is that nostalgia breaks down when you have no reason to believe that the other person will keep their word, because they are only doing what they want you to hear to get something from you. In GW's case, there's zero reason to believe that they will support Specialist Games, because they lied the last time.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/05 12:48:43
- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame
2015/12/05 13:42:38
Subject: Re:Have GW finally started to save themselves?
Space Hulk 3 worked absolutely fine as a single boxed game. They can make other one-off boxed games.
Blood Bowl would work fine as a range consisting of a Stadium Starter (terrain, no teams, officials) and maybe eight separate boxed teams including the players, coach and cheerleaders (Humans 1, Humans 2, Elves, Dwarves, Hobbits, Orcs, Goblins, Lizard Men.)
You buy the Stadium Set and two teams, then you can add more teams later. GW could also release variant stadium scenery with spectators, to give modellers something extra. They could even do a floodlighting set.
A game like Epic or Battle Fleet Gothic obviously can be extended over many different products, including optional rules to link BFG to Epic to 40K, though not infinitely.
I don't think any game benefits from infinite extension of new stuff. WHFB failed partly because GW tried to squeeze to much into it to squeeze too much out of players. 40K is going down the same route. The alternative is to release new games, rather than new add-ons for old games.
The reasons why GW might actually be trustable to go down this route are:
SGs used to work for them when they were done properly.
The GW strategy of the past 10 years clearly has been a failure in terms of driving sales, though it has enabled them to increase efficiency.
Therefore they have to change.
Change has been announced.
I am crediting GW with the ability to learn from their mistakes.
Another thing I think GW ought to explore is the idea of games as services, creating world wide campaigns that you pay to join, and put your results online. No-one has said anything about that idea yet, but it's really a variation of the game weekends they are doing for AoS at the moment.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/05 13:43:10
I know I'm being cynical, but I can't help but agree with Wayne. The announcement about the Specialist Studio feels like it's picking open old wounds. They were canned with so little ceremony way back then, apparently because they didn't sell well enough, and with the impression that they wouldn't be back. All but squatted.
So why bring them back now? True, I can imagine it's because of a change in attitude, a desire to 'start to save themselves'; but I can also imagine it's a desperate move, that they realise they need to save themselves, but soon, because of AoS or some other reason. Casting about in their back catalogue for these 'poor sellers' only strengthens that feeling of desperation, in my eyes.
It also reminds me about tales of TSR's demise - throwing out more and more products in the hope of getting a sale out of them. Before anyone starts, I'm not saying it's a sign of GW's imminent collapse, but again, I take it as a sign they're getting jittery.
Good for SGs? Good for vets and new blood? I don't know. I know other SG vets are taking a pretty relaxed view: new minis and good new rules? Good. New rules not so good? Still, new minis. Good.
But are they really needed?
Warmaster wasn't mentioned in the announcements, IIRC. That could use new minis (in a rare moment of praise for GW, I still think few 10mm ranges could match Warmaster minis) but I can imagine that GW thinks it's fans rejected grand-army, block-manoeuvre games in the form of WFB 8th (that was arguably an attempted replacement for WM, in the way of 40K Apocalypse for Epic) and it might be difficult to revisit with the lack of a Warhammer World to fight over. Maybe they could bring out a Warmaster set in the AoS realms? Though I think there are still those other factors against it, alongside the fact that they need to build up factions and ranges for AoSitself, first.
Ditto for Mordheim. There is no Mordheim any more, not even a smoking crater. No Empire to be in flames. Warhammer, in the guise of AoS, is GW's fantasy skirmish game now.
Inquisitor... was that in the announcement? IIRC it sold it's quota but wasn't well received, and that a lot of the existing fan base has switched from OOP 54mms to Inq28 and Inquisimunda. If there's a new Inquisitor box, will it attract much new and old blood?
Blood Bowl has a huge following anyway, with plenty of fantasy football proxies. I know Epic's proxy market is starting to ramp up for a second time, with Troublemaker Games, Onslaught Miniatures, and Bradley Miniatures arriving on the scene. If GW is going to provide something for these two games, it's going to have to provide a pretty complete range to outdo what's already there, rather than one or two limited box sets. To be honest I don't know if they'll do that.
(On the flipside, I've seen the owner of Vanguard Miniatures, current stocker of Troublemaker minis, complain that he might not now buy the range if it'll be ignored in favour of new, official Epic minis. I'd say GW's new SGs are already starting to hurt the SG communities, in some ways.)
I think BFG and Necromunda might benefit the most from new minis, but again, it'll have to involve regular releases to build up the factions, rather than limited boxes. Even regular releases of one-off boxes might not be enough. What if you want to start BFG with, say, the orks vs. eldar box, but you fancy a game of orks vs. imperium? The imperium vs. chaos box was released two years ago. There's none left, and you don't know anyone who bought it...
Like I say, maybe I'm being too cynical. Maybe the new studio will provide ongoing support for all games and factions. But nobody ever went broke underestimating GW's commitment to it's fan base...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/12/05 15:07:22
Vermis wrote: Ditto for Mordheim. There is no Mordheim any more, not even a smoking crater. No Empire to be in flames. Warhammer, in the guise of AoS, is GW's fantasy skirmish game now.
Mordheim takes place way before the End Times, even before the time of Magnus the Pious.
Mordheim has always been a doomed setting - in the end Magnus reunites the Empire, and burns Mordheim to the ground.
It is not a sequel to Warhammer, it is a prequel.
The Auld Grump
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
2015/12/05 22:58:34
Subject: Have GW finally started to save themselves?
"In the beginning there was Sigmar....then the Empire....then Mordheim....later on that blew up....thousand of years later there was disc/multi/dome world thingys....and it was Meh!"
Good old fashioned timeline covers a multitude of sins with the minimum of word count.
I don't actually see Mordheim being that high on the agenda, ditto Warmaster.
How do you promote your Hobby? - Legoburner "I run some crappy wargaming website "
2015/12/06 00:26:47
Subject: Re:Have GW finally started to save themselves?
I don't think any game benefits from infinite extension of new stuff. WHFB failed partly because GW tried to squeeze to much into it to squeeze too much out of players. 40K is going down the same route. The alternative is to release new games, rather than new add-ons for old games.
Most of their extension have been in the direction of more or bigger stuff (and more points per game), kinda vertically piling on stuff until the whole pyramid starts to crumble. They could try going horizontal with multiple themed packs. It even looks like they wanted to go in that direction with the most recent 40k expansions that explore one or two factions in detail. They could try more campaign packs that expand an army sideways (like a really specific SW Great Company) with some conversion sprues for that expansion. That would give people options while not deviating from the basic armies too much and create the need for one or two additional units with each release (instead of forcing whole armies to be reorganized with each new codex).
They have the lore to keep that going for years. FW has done something similar with their campaign books and they could do that with plastic and for all armies (throughout the year). That would give all of their customers something to buy instead of betting on the one army per month upgrade cycle that leaves most people waiting and spending little money.
Of course a solid rules system would be nice for that so one doesn't have to work through six revisions of the same rule just to play one game.
2015/12/06 00:38:08
Subject: Have GW finally started to save themselves?
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:Yeah but how do they explain the fluff to newer players who are only familiar with the Age of Sigmar universe?
When I say 'all but squatted', I mean it. It's not just a glossed-over, hushed-whisper part of the history of the setting, it's a glossed-over part of the history of GW, of stuff they've rejected and left behind. I'd guess they won't even want to bring up the fact that it existed.
Mario wrote:Most of their extension have been in the direction of more or bigger stuff (and more points per game), kinda vertically piling on stuff until the whole pyramid starts to crumble.
Yup! And I'd suggest they were pulled in that direction by their own conditioning of their fan base to expect more stuff to buy. I've seen one or two folk mention that's the whole point of new editions and army books, for them.
I bought the 6th Ed. Space Marine Codex the Christmas before 7th Ed was announced - like 6 months before, or something. I still haven't played a 6th Ed. game. I'm not buying any more Codexes...
2015/12/06 14:29:30
Subject: Have GW finally started to save themselves?
Given that they still have those "one-click bundles" that save you no money (see: Varanguard collection @ $300 for 9 when they are $100 for 3) , I'm staying skeptical on GW saving anything. If they had any sense, those would be the first to go because they are insulting.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/06 14:29:57
That's like saying Operation Icestorm comes with a game mat, hehehe. The miniatures themselves are not really comparable, 
Thought for the day 
