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2015/12/01 22:35:38
Subject: Re:Have GW finally started to save themselves?
I must say that it is a real teat to see that photo. A dairy dose of humor is always a good thing.
However, you guys are really milking the typo for all it's worth. Can we steer this thread back on topic? Moove along, so to speak. Put the puns out to pasture...
Won't the question asked in the thread title be answered at the end of January, with the annual report?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/01 23:19:23
2015/12/01 23:47:57
Subject: Have GW finally started to save themselves?
Won't the question asked in the thread title be answered at the end of January, with the annual report?
No. The attitude and ethos within GW is what is important and while the recent changes are certainly a good sign there needs to be far more concrete evidence before I will think that GW are saving themselves. The financial reports in 5 years time would be a far better judge, assuming that they still exist.
TheAuldGrump wrote: Considering the impact that Age of Sigmar has made on the local market... (akin to the impact of a rotten tomato on a brick wall) I would hesitate to pull tAoS out as an example of 'saving themselves', more like getting a bigger shovel to make the hole that they are digging themselves into get bigger, faster.
Maybe GW need a bigger shovel because they are going to dig up?
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
2015/12/02 05:48:36
Subject: Re:Have GW finally started to save themselves?
judgedoug wrote: To answer OP, yes, as Age of Sigmar is the best thing GW has done since 2009.
Unless you are a fan of the Old World, mass battles, or competitive play.
Or even half-way decent rules.
Considering the impact that Age of Sigmar has made on the local market... (akin to the impact of a rotten tomato on a brick wall) I would hesitate to pull tAoS out as an example of 'saving themselves', more like getting a bigger shovel to make the hole that they are digging themselves into get bigger, faster.
WH30K, is a better example, and the possible return of Specialist Games is also at least an attempt.
Age of Sigmar is a better example of what they need to save themselves from....
The Auld Grump - there is a little thing called 'Market Research' that would help a lot....
I just picked up Betrayal at Calth, mainly because I watched several vids including Warhammer TV's play through.
It's a solid board game with high quality components and miniatures.
I was only marginally interested in the 30k theme but it's the full product ala Space Hulk.
Everything from good fluff to good rules to nice components. In my opinion, they done good on BaC.
I still approach their stuff warily but hopefully this is a positive sign.
Thread Slayer
2015/12/02 08:48:24
Subject: Have GW finally started to save themselves?
I have said for years that one of GW's problems is to little diversity of products actually in shops for visitors to look at and buy, and that boardgames and other one-box products can make a big difference.
Therefore the only drawback of Callth in regards to the thread topic, is that although apparently a good game, it's still 40K (30K being only a Space Marine ony version of 40K.)
GW are still the place to go for Space Mariens and not for much else.
Compare and contrast the bundle deals on GW website and those on Mantic. If you can find one at comparable price with the same number of models in it I'll be impressed. They are just not competitive with other multi-part plastic kits these days.
"But me no buts! Our comrades get hurt. Our friends die. Falkenburg is a knight who swore an oath to serve the church and to defend the weak. He'd be the first to tell you to stop puling and start planning. Because what we are doing-at risk to ourselves-is what we have sworn to do. The West relies on us. It is a risk we take with pride. It is an oath we honour. Even when some soft southern burgher mutters about us, we know the reason he sleeps soft and comfortable, why his wife is able to complain about the price of cabbages as her most serious problem and why his children dare to throw dung and yell "Knot" when we pass. It's because we are what we are. For all our faults we stand for law and light.
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2017 Model Count-71
2015/12/02 10:50:19
Subject: Have GW finally started to save themselves?
Llamahead wrote: Compare and contrast the bundle deals on GW website and those on Mantic. If you can find one at comparable price with the same number of models in it I'll be impressed. They are just not competitive with other multi-part plastic kits these days.
Well if you look at the regular price of say, Deadzone (which I own), it's around the same price as Dark Vengeance or Age of Sigmar, and you get nowhere near as many or as diverse models. I personally think that most GW models are just plain better than most Mantic models, in terms of both aesthetic (which is a purely personal, but important thing) as well as quality and complexity of models.
Personally, some of my favorite stuff from Mantic is actually their terrain, which I think is pretty cool and well priced -- but for some reason, the connector packs, at least here, are obnoxiously expensive.
2015/12/02 12:30:16
Subject: Have GW finally started to save themselves?
Kilkrazy wrote: I have said for years that one of GW's problems is to little diversity of products actually in shops for visitors to look at and buy, and that boardgames and other one-box products can make a big difference.
Therefore the only drawback of Callth in regards to the thread topic, is that although apparently a good game, it's still 40K (30K being only a Space Marine ony version of 40K.)
GW are still the place to go for Space Mariens and not for much else.
"not much else", aside from:
Tau
Ad. Mech.
Eldar
Dark Eldar
Necrons
Guard
Dark Elves
High Elves
Wood Elves
Tomb Kings
Dinos
Beastmen
Skaven
just to name a few...
who else does these kinds of kits in robust, detailed, easy to assemble and paint plastics???
ido agree that more diversity in the shops, at least, would be better for GW...
i have seen a lot of people come into the stores looking for video games, and those guys could walk out with a paid voucher for a mobile game, or a copy of Space Marine, or Dawn of War....
they could carry the FFG roleplay stuff, and card games...
Forgeworld could be sold in store on an "as available" basis...
all of these things have happened before, and really shouldn't have ever stopped...
let's hope a return of the Specialist products provide a little more diversity...
cheers
jah
Paint like ya got a pair!
Available for commissions.
2015/12/02 14:09:11
Subject: Have GW finally started to save themselves?
I think KK meant "Space Marines" more in the sense that it's still nearly all 30mm Sci Fi combat in the same setting, there's little diversity, and Fantasy/AOS has been a bit part player for some time, not literally you can only buy Space Marines.
Llamahead wrote: Compare and contrast the bundle deals on GW website and those on Mantic. If you can find one at comparable price with the same number of models in it I'll be impressed. They are just not competitive with other multi-part plastic kits these days.
Well if you look at the regular price of say, Deadzone (which I own), it's around the same price as Dark Vengeance or Age of Sigmar, and you get nowhere near as many or as diverse models. I personally think that most GW models are just plain better than most Mantic models, in terms of both aesthetic (which is a purely personal, but important thing) as well as quality and complexity of models.
Personally, some of my favorite stuff from Mantic is actually their terrain, which I think is pretty cool and well priced -- but for some reason, the connector packs, at least here, are obnoxiously expensive.
Would that be the same Deadzone that contains the mat and all the terrain, as well as a bunch of miniatures?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/02 14:10:49
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Would that be the same Deadzone that contains the mat and all the terrain, as well as a bunch of miniatures?
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he means the recently released Warzone Resurrection (which is quite expensive), not the Mutant Chronicles stuff from the 90s.
Otherwise my 80 guardsmen at 40€ (including VAT and shipping from the Ire Land) may be inclined to disagree.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/02 14:19:25
Progress is like a herd of pigs: everybody is interested in the produced benefits, but nobody wants to deal with all the resulting gak.
GW customers deserve every bit of outrageous princing they get.
2015/12/02 14:33:18
Subject: Have GW finally started to save themselves?
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
TheAuldGrump wrote: Considering the impact that Age of Sigmar has made on the local market... (akin to the impact of a rotten tomato on a brick wall) I would hesitate to pull AoS out as an example of 'saving themselves', more like getting a bigger shovel to make the hole that they are digging themselves into get bigger, faster.
Maybe GW need a bigger shovel because they are going to dig up?
There must be a pony here somewhere!
The Auld Grump
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azreal13 wrote: I think KK meant "Space Marines" more in the sense that it's still nearly all 30mm Sci Fi combat in the same setting, there's little diversity, and Fantasy/AOS has been a bit part player for some time, not literally you can only buy Space Marines.
Llamahead wrote: Compare and contrast the bundle deals on GW website and those on Mantic. If you can find one at comparable price with the same number of models in it I'll be impressed. They are just not competitive with other multi-part plastic kits these days.
Well if you look at the regular price of say, Deadzone (which I own), it's around the same price as Dark Vengeance or Age of Sigmar, and you get nowhere near as many or as diverse models. I personally think that most GW models are just plain better than most Mantic models, in terms of both aesthetic (which is a purely personal, but important thing) as well as quality and complexity of models.
Personally, some of my favorite stuff from Mantic is actually their terrain, which I think is pretty cool and well priced -- but for some reason, the connector packs, at least here, are obnoxiously expensive.
Would that be the same Deadzone that contains the mat and all the terrain, as well as a bunch of miniatures?
And the models that it contains totals much more than the size of suggested games - giving the players flexibility in what they field.
The same local group that plays Necromunda also plays Deadzone - and are quite happy using the terrain from Deadzone for both games.
They didn't even cut down on how much they were playing necromunda - they just added a second game to the week to play Deadzone.
They did this so the folks that only wanted to play Necromunda wouldn't lose out on games played....
The reality has been all the players playing both games. (I am pretty sure that some of the Deadzone models have been showing up as Necromunda gangs, as well - there are interweb rules for Squats and Orks....
The Auld Grump - in my opinion, that the group has elected to play both games is a win-win, and adding a second game each week means that it is not a zero sum game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/02 16:16:40
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
2015/12/02 17:51:30
Subject: Have GW finally started to save themselves?
Yeah, that's the one I mean, and I only picked that because it's the only Mantic boxed starter (other than Mars Attacks) that I own. Like I said, the scenery pieces are nice, though you really need more than what's in the starter box. The game mat isn't really worth much IMO That's like saying Operation Icestorm comes with a game mat, hehehe. The miniatures themselves are not really comparable, IMO, however, and the box price is about the same (super awesome black Friday price notwithstanding).
Don't get me wrong: I think Deadzone is a good value. But, DV, AoS, in terms of model value, are good too, IMO -- certainly, comparable and not horribly lopsided. Calth, in a different way, but that's more expensive than DZ, so I didn't mention it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/02 17:51:42
2015/12/02 22:08:30
Subject: Have GW finally started to save themselves?
Yeah, that's the one I mean, and I only picked that because it's the only Mantic boxed starter (other than Mars Attacks) that I own. Like I said, the scenery pieces are nice, though you really need more than what's in the starter box. The game mat isn't really worth much IMO That's like saying Operation Icestorm comes with a game mat, hehehe. The miniatures themselves are not really comparable, IMO, however, and the box price is about the same (super awesome black Friday price notwithstanding).
Don't get me wrong: I think Deadzone is a good value. But, DV, AoS, in terms of model value, are good too, IMO -- certainly, comparable and not horribly lopsided. Calth, in a different way, but that's more expensive than DZ, so I didn't mention it.
DV I will grant you, but the figures in AoS just aren't that useful if you don't like the game that they are attached to.
Dark Vengeance has figures that can be used with any edition of WH40K, from Rogue Trader on up.
Sigmarines... can also be used with any edition of WH40K, from Rogue Trader on up, but aren't that great for Fantasy.
The Auld Grump
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
2015/12/03 00:37:43
Subject: Have GW finally started to save themselves?
TheAuldGrump wrote: DV I will grant you, but the figures in AoS just aren't that useful if you don't like the game that they are attached to.
Dark Vengeance has figures that can be used with any edition of WH40K, from Rogue Trader on up.
Sigmarines... can also be used with any edition of WH40K, from Rogue Trader on up, but aren't that great for Fantasy.
The Auld Grump
Yeah, sure, but you could say the same thing about Deadzone -- the models aren't really generically useful, though the terrain is.
The problem with pricing of GW games has never been their starter boxes, or even their core units, IMO -- it's always been in expensive elite forces, character models, and "centerpiece" models, and the migration towards more of those, and less of the traditional 28mm core models that we're talking about when we compare Mantic boxes to GW boxes. GW is not entirely to blame in this: players have gobbled up bigger, badder, faster, and meaner models, so GW is encouraged to produce these more profitable sprues of plastic, and making them ever more fierce, to the point where, excluding very specific MSU-type armies it's just a lot easier to win with the super units instead of the grunts movable terrain.
2015/12/03 02:54:36
Subject: Re:Have GW finally started to save themselves?
At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money.
2015/12/03 05:38:16
Subject: Have GW finally started to save themselves?
If Necromunda is good I'd totally play it again, I hope we get the space vampires back...
I mean Necromunda and Blood Bowl were my two biggest favourites.
Either they'll be awesome and keep their charm, or be horrendous.
I wonder if my local GW will let me play them in store, they have a habit of only letting the big 3 (even technically before Specialist Games got axed) so...
Won't invest in anything otherwise.
Make Dolls Great Again
Clover/Trump 2016
For the United Shelves of America!
2015/12/03 05:44:35
Subject: Have GW finally started to save themselves?
Has anyone else looked at the new rules for Path to Glory, seen how they have changed from the old ones, and rethought their position on the return of specialist games being a good thing?
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
2015/12/03 09:21:10
Subject: Have GW finally started to save themselves?
jonolikespie wrote: Has anyone else looked at the new rules for Path to Glory, seen how they have changed from the old ones, and rethought their position on the return of specialist games being a good thing?
Jono, can I ask you for a quick pm with a lowdown of the changes and why you say that?
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
2015/12/03 09:44:30
Subject: Have GW finally started to save themselves?
jonolikespie wrote: Has anyone else looked at the new rules for Path to Glory, seen how they have changed from the old ones, and rethought their position on the return of specialist games being a good thing?
Why? They are most likely written by GW main, specialist games will be written by FW.
2015/12/03 09:46:54
Subject: Have GW finally started to save themselves?
Joyboozer wrote:So, will Warhammer Fantasy be a Specialist Game?
Doubt it, but LotR will be apparently.
Mymearan wrote:
jonolikespie wrote: Has anyone else looked at the new rules for Path to Glory, seen how they have changed from the old ones, and rethought their position on the return of specialist games being a good thing?
Why? They are most likely written by GW main, specialist games will be written by FW.
We hope sure, but it's still not an encouraging sign.
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
2015/12/03 09:53:24
Subject: Have GW finally started to save themselves?
Joyboozer wrote:So, will Warhammer Fantasy be a Specialist Game?
Doubt it, but LotR will be apparently.
Mymearan wrote:
jonolikespie wrote: Has anyone else looked at the new rules for Path to Glory, seen how they have changed from the old ones, and rethought their position on the return of specialist games being a good thing?
Why? They are most likely written by GW main, specialist games will be written by FW.
We hope sure, but it's still not an encouraging sign.
Yeah, that's the only problem. But let's wait and see. I am more curious to see what is the first game cranked out.
"Let them that are happy talk of piety; we that would work our adversary must take no account of laws."http://back2basing.blogspot.pt/
2015/12/03 10:04:01
Subject: Have GW finally started to save themselves?
jonolikespie wrote: Has anyone else looked at the new rules for Path to Glory, seen how they have changed from the old ones, and rethought their position on the return of specialist games being a good thing?
Why? They are most likely written by GW main, specialist games will be written by FW.
GW and FW designers cooperate closely on new work, according to Laurie Goulding at GW.
FW have never done a full game, AFAIK, the rules they write for Imperial Armour etc are add-ons for the core game rules.
Apparently the Battle of Cattle rules, which are garnering praise, were written by a pro board game designer they drafted in for the job.
This could be a better method than letting the Design Studio get involved. A lot of GW's best games have been written by outsiders, new recruits or guys working by themselves rather than in committees.
That's like saying Operation Icestorm comes with a game mat, hehehe. The miniatures themselves are not really comparable, 
