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I don't know why, but it just seems like everybody that I talk to who play's Space Marines hates the Vanguard Veterans. There a great options open squad that you can really build to suit. Personally I like to run they in this configuration:

5 man Squad.
SGT w/ Lightning claw (free) & Melta-bomb.
Razorback w/ Lascannon

To me the Vanguard Vets are the Space Marine equivalent of Khorne Berzerkers. Just that they can have the option of moving 12 inches if they want it or take a better light armored vehicle.

They don't get a manly catchphrase like the Berzerkers.

The truth is, they're grossly overcosted for what they do.

If you're chopping up GEqs, Assault Marines do the job just as well for a fraction of the price.

If you're chopping up MEqs, Assault Terminators do the job better for around the same price.

The only unique thing they have is the Heroic Intervention (am I remembering the name correctly?) rule, which is situational at best and useless at worst.

Not exactly what I was looking for but good point Little Lord Fauntleroy.


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SaintHazard wrote:The truth is, they're grossly overcosted for what they do.

If you're chopping up GEqs, Assault Marines do the job just as well for a fraction of the price.

If you're chopping up MEqs, Assault Terminators do the job better for around the same price.

The only unique thing they have is the Heroic Intervention (am I remembering the name correctly?) rule, which is situational at best and useless at worst.

I've never used the Heroic Intervention before, I've always used them in the Razorback because I run Khan as my HQ who gives squads and their D.T.'s Outflank. It's funny to see my opponents face when they see all my Razorbacks come out on their sides blasting away. Plus it gets the troops into a better position to charge their enemies.

I'd have to say they are a bit expensive for what they do, kind of like Noise Marines for CSM. You can get units that do the job just as well for a better price.

Generally speaking, most players feel they are too expensive, and that their one redeeming feature (the Heroic Intervention) is just this side of worthless. Although, honestly, when it comes to Deep Striking units, if I don't have a locator beacon on the table, shame on me.

hpred wrote:Not exactly what I was looking for but good point Little Lord Fauntleroy.


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SaintHazard wrote:The truth is, they're grossly overcosted for what they do.

If you're chopping up GEqs, Assault Marines do the job just as well for a fraction of the price.

If you're chopping up MEqs, Assault Terminators do the job better for around the same price.

The only unique thing they have is the Heroic Intervention (am I remembering the name correctly?) rule, which is situational at best and useless at worst.

I've never used the Heroic Intervention before, I've always used them in the Razorback because I run Khan as my HQ who gives squads and their D.T.'s Outflank. It's funny to see my opponents face when they see all my Razorbacks come out on their sides blasting away. Plus it gets the troops into a better position to charge their enemies.

The question here is simply whether to pay for a Razorback or to pay for jump packs. The Razorback is more expensive, but also serves as a mobile weapons platform quite nicely, however has the drawback of being a lascannon magnet while it lumbers over to deposit your Vanguards.

In the end, I would just take Assault Terminators, get a locator beacon onto the field, and DS those suckers in. Same result, same price(ish), better models.

I'll Deep strike with Chaos Termies & Oblids. But for some reason I don't with Space Marines unless its my Drop Pod carrying my Melta Dred to take out enemy armor. Deep striking marines take to long to get into the fight as they have to sit there for a turn and get shot at. That's what makes Heroic Intervention so good, they can charge after the strike. I'll have to run a test list to see how it works. And the Locator Beacon only works on Termies, not Assault or Vanguard Marines.

Few people take van vets because they are overpriced for what they do, and assault termies (for more) are more derable and tend to do more damage to pretty much anything.

hpred Wrote:
And the Locator Beacon only works on Termies, not Assault or Vanguard Marines.

Your confusing the locator beacon with the teleporter homer, the teleporter homer only works on terminators the locator beacon works on all other deepstriking units.

I'm with the majority here. Vangaurd vets are horribly overpriced. at 20 points a man with jump packs included they might be worth it. but they're something like 35 a piece when you give them a jump pack. ugh. just take a terminator.
AF

BA Vets are slightly better due to the re-roll they get.
But it's still a trick pony unit....to the extreme.

-Sanct.

Fox Lord uses a 5 man Jump Pack VV Squad
VV Sarg [Relic Blade/SS]
VV x5 [Power Weapon/SS]

They are very effective with the Heroic Intervention and hiting HQ and other Elite Units. They CRUSHED a 15 man Blood Claw Pack with a Rune Priest and Wolf Gard in two Assault PHASES with no losses.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:I'm with the majority here. Vangaurd vets are horribly overpriced. at 20 points a man with jump packs included they might be worth it. but they're something like 35 a piece when you give them a jump pack. ugh. just take a terminator.
AF

20 points with jump packs included and they'd be a whopping 2 points more expensive than Assault Marines.

Nobody would ever run Assault Marines again.

But you're correct about them being 35 points apiece with jump packs, and that can be lowered. Or just 25 points, like all Veterans, and include the jump packs. Make it cost nothing to remove them, but make them come standard. Then they might be worth taking. Especially since they're one of the few Vanilla units you can give power weapons to all around, and that 3 attacks on the charge is nice.

Notice also that the Veteran Sergeant is the only Sergeant in the Vanilla Marine army that doesn't cost an extra 10 points. Probably has something to do with the fact that his statline is identical to any other Veteran, and the only difference is different wargear, but his wargear IS cheaper (power sword is standard, Fist is 15 points I believe, versus 25 on anyone else in the unit).

Van Vets could be well worth taking if they were just reduced in cost a bit.

If GW eratta'd them to come with jump packs attached they would overnight become one of the most versatile and effective units in the vanilla marines codex. As it stands now, and as everyone else has said, they're just too many points.

They are 30 points for 1 with a jump pack. NOW, if they were say...20 points for a marine w/jump pack id use them over assault terminators coz you could give them a power weapon and storm shield for 50 points (pretty much giving terminators a jump pack for 10 points)


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Its quite easy for a vanguard veteran squad of 10 to equal 750 points.

Hazard
yeah well in fairness assault marines are kind of overpriced too. I think blood angels get them for something like 16 points a piece. that makes sense to me. but then who would take tacticals, I hear you cry? nobody! and thank god!
AF

Man I wish Assault Marines where 16 points...

if Vanguard came with the packs included in their price then they would be at least decent.

in order for them to kill things effectivly they will end up costing 1.5 times that of an assault terminator for less durability against normal shooting.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Hazard
yeah well in fairness assault marines are kind of overpriced too. I think blood angels get them for something like 16 points a piece. that makes sense to me. but then who would take tacticals, I hear you cry? everybody because tacticals are infinately superior for holding objectives and are able to use lascannons and other such things! and thank god!
AF

Fix'd for ya.

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blood angels assault marines are scoring btw

AbaddonFidelis wrote:


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blood angels assault marines are scoring btw

its too bad the main point is that you can take a plasma gun and a lascannon w/ your tactical squad, not to mention the rhino or razorback transport... not everyone blood angels or assault armies either so assault marines would be an outstanding waste of points in my gunline CFists army, even if they were scoring, so quit the tactical squad hate.

as for the OP: Vanguards are too expensive to kit out and field when you compare them to things like assault terminators, i have never seen anyone at my club even consider using vanguards so it seems to be a common belief that vanguards aren't worth it, but hey if works for you more power to ya...

Joe
calm down. I was just making a point about the relative effectiveness of units for their points cost. I agree though blood angels assault marines wouldnt make much sense in your crimson fists army. because the units are from two different codices
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Joe
calm down. I was just making a point about the relative effectiveness of units for their points cost. I agree though blood angels assault marines wouldnt make much sense in your crimson fists army. because the units are from two different codices
AF

yes you were, and as usual you missed most of it...also, I find it hilarious that you tell him to "calm down" when he only called you on your singled minded ideas. Especially since you yourself have no problems calling other players name when they disprove or disagree with you

ooooh, internet drama! Someone challenge someone else to a fight!


Regarding vanguard veterans, I think of any T4 3+ save model as having a maximum cost. If they cost 35 points/model, they're just too vulnerable to small arms fire, let alone battlecannons etc. Someone above said that their friend used a squad all with stormshields - I think that's a terrible idea. What are those, 45-50 point models? And they're only as tough as 15 point marines against any kind of low-AP weapon.

If a unit costs as much as v veterans (while being no tougher than its bog-standard troops equivalent) it had better have some sort of devestating offensive potential. Vveterans don't have that. They might wiff their deep strike scatter and be exposed to enemy fire, they are likely to wipe out a unit worth less than themselves in 1 assault phase and then get shot to death.

And to cap it all off, assault terminators are better. In this edition of the rules, killer assault units need to be tough (or cheap) as well as deadly.

Imo, you could take the models and call them assault marines. But that would be more from a collection point of view. From a gaming point of view they're veteran assault marines with an over estimated points cost;

BA are special and are all for assaults, so if I played BA, I would almost always take assault marines, though with a tactical ratio of something like 3:1 for the assault marines.

It's really quite simple: tac squads for the gunlines, vanilla marines and DA for scoring units.
assault squads for BA and other marines who want an objective contester unit. (does "contester" exist? )




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I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:ooooh, internet drama! Someone challenge someone else to a fight!

when are you free?

Lord Rogukiel wrote:

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:ooooh, internet drama! Someone challenge someone else to a fight!

when are you free?

When are you willing to fly to Rwanda?

Ted
you wrote: "...on your singled minded ideas. Especially since you yourself have no problems calling other players name when they disprove or disagree with you"


AF

But it's true...but you can't hear me because you just can't accept that there are other people with opinions like Darkhound and I.

But he can't read this because he's ignored me I believe...so ... win/win I guess.


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Internet Drama? There is nothing else.

simple.

what do you get? one little rule.

what does it cost you? 125 points.

vanguard are pointless without jump packs. they're just too slow.

If they were, say 150/24 points but came with jump packs, you'd see many more people buying them.

To be fair, you also get the capability of taking a CC squad with both power weapons that hit at normal initiative AND Storm Shields.

With Assault Termies, you have to choose between the two, and always move 6".

Van Vets are nice, there's no doubt about that, there's not a single more customizable CC unit in the Vanilla codex, but they're just overcosted for what they do.