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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I've been reading up on the ETC games and a Polish bug list claims to have easily beat at least 5 Mech IG lists over the course of the tournament. The bug list was specifically designed to beat Mech IG (Leafblower) at 1750pts and it apparently did as advertised. One thing to keep in mind is that the ETC used a healthy amount of 18"-24" square pieces of terrain each about 6"-8" tall. This provided easy LOS blocking terrain, not just 4+ cover save terrain, on each board.

HQ1: Tervigon (160), Catalyst (15), Cluster Spines (0) 175

Elite 1 : 3 Hive Guards 150
Elite 2 : 3 Hive Guards 150
Elite 3 : 3 Hive Guards 150

Troop 1 : Tervigon (160), Catalyst (15), Cluster Spines (0) 175
Troop 2 : 10 Termagants ( 10*5 ) 50
Troop 3 : 20 Genestealers (20*14) 280
Troop 4 : 20 Genestealers (20*14) 280
Troop 5 : 20 Genestealers (20*14), toxin sacs ( 20*3) 340


From what I have gathered, the basic tactic was to reserve everything and let the reserves dictate the flow of the game. The Stealers would outflank and come on with some part close enough to a Tervigon to cast FnP on the unit (to help vs. heavy flamers. Vehicle heavy IG would be forced to bunch in the center with such huge stealer squads threatening the sides and the Hive Guard would come on the board and target vehicles that strayed to close to the center. I'm very curious to see how this list wold do against vehicle heavy SW and BA lists who might suffer the same weaknesses the Ig players would have had in deployment.
   
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot




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Tailored list. Boring. Next.

I would add more but...whats there to say? Tailored list > tailored list > tailored list, I'm pretty sure some IG player with more time on their hands could craft a 1750 list that would mulch this one just as easily.

This is also one of the reasons I dislike highly intensive competition in a wargame that, let's be honest, isn't all that hot on balance. People turn up with lists like this and it drains all the fun from what is, in essence, a game of toy soldiers.

WAAC players be damned, I'd much rather fight a tactically interesting, well balanced list than something like this anyday; that's not to say I condone 'leafblower' Guard either, I don't, but people look at whoever wins a competition and copy-pastes their list in the belief that they will perform just as well for them.

Take into account all the subjectives that occur in a game and...well...don't be surprised if this list doesn't perform for you the same way as it did in the ETC, especially as it is so obviously a paper to someones rock.

But then what happens when you meet the scissors?

L. Wrex

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<Lycaeus Wrex> rolls 7 dice, 4+ to hit, Strength 6 against Armour 12...
* 0 out of 7 dice hit (4+) = (1,1,1,1,1,1,1) 
   
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Thanks for the constructive feedback Wrex. Did the time it took you to type that drivle make you feel better, because it sure didn't change the world.

Tell me the scissors to this rock and tell me if mech marine lists will fare better - BTW it will be painted up by a Golden Daemon winner so this WAAC list can win best painted to. Happy?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/19 22:11:28


 
   
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot




England, UK

Granted it was a little rant on my part. It just seems...souless to me. Play your game how you want to, but don't be surprised if people have an alternate opinion on a list than your own.

What would you prefer me do? Proclaim this to be the ultimate answer to a mech-vet spam? Maybe it is, hell I don't know. What I'm trying to say is that you can't look at this at face value. You said yourself the board was full or large, LOS blocking terrain, which helped the 'Nic player immensely as he could hide his Hive Guard and still shoot at full effectiveness. Play on a board with sparse terrain and you get a different ball-game altogether. This is subjective, and it changes how well the list performs.

Don't expect me to get on my knees and bow down just because someone managed to find a way to counter a mechanised army. I'm offering my opinion, nothing more. If you don't like it...well...tough. It's my opinion after all.

L. Wrex

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<Lycaeus Wrex> rolls 7 dice, 4+ to hit, Strength 6 against Armour 12...
* 0 out of 7 dice hit (4+) = (1,1,1,1,1,1,1) 
   
Made in us
Plaguelord Titan Princeps of Nurgle




Alabama

Also, Wrex, the OP was making reference to the ETC, which has a very different format. It encourages lists like this because of how it is set up.

The team captain chooses who will play who. So, if the opponent puts up his Leafblower IG Teammate, then you'd put up this list to play him. It's a rock-paper-scissors dynamic and it is built to be that way.

In regard to the list though, if I were playing against it and not in a mech-heavy list I would go for the Tervigons first. With Genestealers outflanking, you have at least 1 turn of nothing on the board but the Hive Guard, the tervigons and the gaunts. Take out the Tervigons and you lose the FNP bonus and you lose Synapse, which will make those guants run and hide. After that, you just have to deal with 60 Genestealers. That's really not too tough. The list has major flaws, I think, but, then again, it was built to take out mech IG. And that's what it would do.

Against BA or SW, I think it would be lacking. BA are fast enough to stay away from the Genestealers if need be and can get some Baal Predators into those gaunts/hive guard very quickly. Not to mention units like Meph who can take out a tervigon in one assault or FNP TH/SS termis that don't necessarily fear Genestealers.

SW may have a little more difficulty, but what BA has in speed, SW makes up for in firepower. Razorbacks can make a bad day for tervigons. And what's the range on Hive Guard? 24"? That's a 12" difference for Assault Cannons and a 24" for lascannons.

Against an army that sits still and pummels the other side of the board (Mech IG), it could be good - you don't have to chase anything and they're not going to move alot. Against an army that likes to move or -wants- to be in assault, it may not be as prolific.

Just my 2 cents.

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What would I prefer you do? Either post a constructive comment or keep your mouth shut. I didn't ask if this was the be-all-end all of lists. I didn't even say I would ever build/play it. You assumed all of that. If the USA is going to compete in the ETC next year they will have to take this list under consideration; learns the ins and out of it and deconstruct it. That is what I am trying to accomplish here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Puma - I think the strategy was to reserve everything if the Bug player didn't go first. If they did go first I am not sure if they started with everything on the board or nothing. Reserving everything would allow the Tervigons to come on the board the same turn as the stealers (statistically you would get 1 Tervigon and at least 1 stealer squad on turn 2). This would allow catalyst to be cast in the movement phase on the 20 stealers. If the Bug go first and deploys 60 stealers 18.1" away from the guard lines, then Catalyst is cast and 60 stealers are in your face.

In either case the Tervigons and Hive Guard are not on the board alone and I imagine they are not shot at as 60 FnP stealers are in the IG players face.

To get a list like this to work at the ETC it would need to be able to beat/tie another common type of list in case the IG player is unavailable to play against it. So it must work against a 2nd type of list. I wonder if it doesn't come from the MEQ branch.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/19 22:36:48


 
   
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot




England, UK

puma713 wrote:Also, Wrex, the OP was making reference to the ETC, which has a very different format. It encourages lists like this because of how it is set up.

The team captain chooses who will play who. So, if the opponent puts up his Leafblower IG Teammate, then you'd put up this list to play him. It's a rock-paper-scissors dynamic and it is built to be that way


Perhaps this was what I was missing. It's an...interesting way to run a tournament to say the least but it is, as they say, their party....

@ DarthDiggler

Perhaps you need to take a step back and chill the feth out. I never made any inclination that you would build/play the list yourself (nor did I make any mention about paintng the army, though God knows why *that's* constructive to the discussion...). Anyway, you want a bit of constructive feedback so maybe I will impart some, seeing as how we've both sufficiently thrown our toys far enough...

I think that anything relying upon a single MC and judicious use of outflanking may well find themselves vulnerable to armies that can mess with reserves, such as the OoTF in Guard armies for example. Delaying reserves, or making them enter the table on the wrong side, may prove desicive when facing an army of which 3/4 of its killing power is tied up off the board.

Blood Angels may well be able to rely upon their speed to deal with the Tervigon quickly, and tie up the Hive Guard in CC. Once the guns are occupied/killed then the Baals/Razorbacks could simply kite the 'Stealers for the rest of the game. Three squads being the size they are could lead to them being particularly susceptible to flamestorms/heavy flamers once the Tervigon is disposed of.

L. Wrex

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<Lycaeus Wrex> rolls 7 dice, 4+ to hit, Strength 6 against Armour 12...
* 0 out of 7 dice hit (4+) = (1,1,1,1,1,1,1) 
   
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Plaguelord Titan Princeps of Nurgle




Alabama

DarthDiggler wrote:
Puma - I think the strategy was to reserve everything if the Bug player didn't go first. If they did go first I am not sure if they started with everything on the board or nothing. Reserving everything would allow the Tervigons to come on the board the same turn as the stealers (statistically you would get 1 Tervigon and at least 1 stealer squad on turn 2). This would allow catalyst to be cast in the movement phase on the 20 stealers. If the Bug go first and deploys 60 stealers 18.1" away from the guard lines, then Catalyst is cast and 60 stealers are in your face.

In either case the Tervigons and Hive Guard are not on the board alone and I imagine they are not shot at as 60 FnP stealers are in the IG players face.

To get a list like this to work at the ETC it would need to be able to beat/tie another common type of list in case the IG player is unavailable to play against it. So it must work against a 2nd type of list. I wonder if it doesn't come from the MEQ branch.


Alright, well here are the glaring problems to me:

1) You never know when you'll get your reserves. It's just not a given. They can come in all together, or they can come in piecemeal.

2) Tervigons can't outflank (without the Swarmlord). This seriously restricts the lethality of the FNP combo, especially since Catalyst only has a 12" reach. If the genestealers are within 18.1" of the IG line, then the Tervigons probably aren't. Sure, they can move, then run turn 1, but if they are reserved, that puts them 12" from the board edge, with the genestealers being roughly 24" more inches away. No Catalyst till turn 2 or 3, at least. Not to mention the fact Catalyst is cast in the movement phase, before they've gotten a run move.

3) Catalyst is only a single use. It's not a bubble. That means one of the units of Genestealers would have it. Two if both Tervigons were within range. But, if they're within 12" of the genestealers, they're probably within 24" of a hood. That, and they've probably taken fire the first couple turns as they try to get within Catalyst range.

4) Genestealers aren't fearless and the Tervigons are the only Synapse. This one is minor, but it could hurt. It takes 5 genestealers to force a Ld check. That's not bad if you've got plenty of assault cannons/melta/plasma, etc. Or, kill the Tervigons, take the gaunts out of the game and possibly the Hive guard.

Just a few things to recognize.

I'm sure there are a few others

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/19 23:26:04


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The Battle Barge Buffet Line

if i were making up a nid list to beat mech, i'd include only the biggest nids when possible. two hive tyrants with tyrant guard, hive guard as elites, tervigons with minimal termagant squads as troops, and heavy support trygons. except for the termagants, the enemy will almost never get more than one wound per 5" blast template, nerfing most of the power of the list.

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Other than the Tervigon fighting in assault, there is nothing in that List that can take on a Land Raider. That is a huge disadvantage against SW, BA, SM, CSM, BT, and DA. Las raider would shoot up the tervigon, then tank shock stuff off the board. A redeemer would BBQ all of the Stealers nearby. A Crusader would dump huge number of TL AP5 shots into the stealers as well. That is you scissors, a Land Raider. In all honestly it is one of the more common vehicles simply because of the number of armies that can take one. Zoanthropes in a pod or MC's are your answer to LR. S8 can kill mobs of light mech, but face any heavy mech and you lose. That is what makes this list boring, the game is decided before the first turn. You face light mech and win, you face Heavy stuff and lose.

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Plastictrees






Salem, MA

I'm with DarthD. It looks to me like, in the hands of a competent general, this army could not only handle mech guard, but doesn't have any crippling blind spots against other competitive builds either. I think it has two major innovations that make it work really well

(1) catalyst on stealers is like giving them their old 4+ extended carapace back--except it also works against heavy flamers. Granted it only works on one unit at a time, but there are only 3 stealer units here and you can use catalyzed unit(s) to screen others, and screen the big bugs & hive guard. Because stealers are T4, their FNP works against the widespread str6-7 shooting that guard armies have.

(2) Coming in from reserve (if you get second turn) is an advantage for this army against a mech opponent--because you always get the first shot off, and you deprive your opponent of a turn of shooting. Even one or two of the hive guard units coming in can shut down a major blast threat or two on turn 2, and by turn 3 IG tanks (or razor spam) will be blowing up like firecrackers.

If you get first turn on a table with lots of LoS blocking terrain, then obviously you can infiltrate at 12.1" with stealers and make a huge alpha-strike assault on tanks that haven't moved yet and just overrun the whole thing.

The stealers don't have to outflank--they can walk on as a screen with the tervigons (also useful in DoW). I'm surprised that the tervigons here don't also have onslaught, since it would be really useful to cast on the hive guard to keep them in synapse while everything moves forward. But maybe the guy ran out of points.

As for accusations that the list is boring or soulless, wtf? I think it would be a really interesting & challenging list to play, or play against. Come to the dark side, guys. We have cookies.

Svendrex: At Str8, Hive guard can glance a LR to death if they have to. Or, if they can at least immobilize it, then a tervigon can wail on it until it's dead. Stealers with catalyst on them get a 4+FNP against flamestorm cannons.

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I saw that army too and was curious about it. It would have been very illuminating to see how he managed it in different missions, with first and second turn, against different opponents, etc. I can see it being very effective, but it definitely seems like an army that needs very different game plans depending on the situation.

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Flavius Infernus wrote:I'm with DarthD. It looks to me like, in the hands of a competent general, this army could not only handle mech guard, but doesn't have any crippling blind spots against other competitive builds either. I think it has two major innovations that make it work really well

(1) catalyst on stealers is like giving them their old 4+ extended carapace back--except it also works against heavy flamers. Granted it only works on one unit at a time, but there are only 3 stealer units here and you can use catalyzed unit(s) to screen others, and screen the big bugs & hive guard. Because stealers are T4, their FNP works against the widespread str6-7 shooting that guard armies have.


Three units of 20 and you're going to cast Catalyst on the one in front, 12" away? If you're 12" away from a tervigon, you're not screening 40 other stealers. Also, for this list to be truly effective, I think the Stealers need to outflank. Otherwise, they'll get eaten up by all sorts of firepower. FNP is great, but it is just a 4+ after all, you're going to fail 50% of them.

Flavius Infernus wrote:(2) Coming in from reserve (if you get second turn) is an advantage for this army against a mech opponent--because you always get the first shot off, and you deprive your opponent of a turn of shooting. Even one or two of the hive guard units coming in can shut down a major blast threat or two on turn 2, and by turn 3 IG tanks (or razor spam) will be blowing up like firecrackers.


That's all well and good, but coming in from reserve if you don't want to (because you have to - you want to deprive the enemy of shooting) isn't always a good thing. Like I said earlier, if you come in piecemeal, you're allowing the enemy's entire army to focus fire on one or two units at a time. Many tournament-goers feel that you should have the game won (or nearly won) by turn 3. If you're not getting units like Hive Guard or Tervigons on until Turn 3, you've effectively removed half of your army from play for most of the game. That will only make it easier to pick off other units.

Flavius Infernus wrote:If you get first turn on a table with lots of LoS blocking terrain, then obviously you can infiltrate at 12.1" with stealers and make a huge alpha-strike assault on tanks that haven't moved yet and just overrun the whole thing.


This is true, however, again, you'll be well out of range for Catalyst and, in most of the games that I've played, a unit of 20 genestealers won't be completely out of LOS, in any case.

Flavius Infernus wrote:The stealers don't have to outflank--they can walk on as a screen with the tervigons (also useful in DoW). I'm surprised that the tervigons here don't also have onslaught, since it would be really useful to cast on the hive guard to keep them in synapse while everything moves forward. But maybe the guy ran out of points.


Maybe. Also, I'm fairly certain that Tervigons can only use 1 power a turn. If he's using Catalyst, then he can't use Onslaught. Onslaught is great, but it also limits the tervis, because they can't shoot anything else or assault anything else that turn.


Flavius Infernus wrote:Svendrex: At Str8, Hive guard can glance a LR to death if they have to. Or, if they can at least immobilize it, then a tervigon can wail on it until it's dead. Stealers with catalyst on them get a 4+FNP against flamestorm cannons.


I think the point is, you can't count on glacing a Land Raider to win a game. I mean, when you're walking up to the table and you see 3 Redeemers across the table from you, you don't think, "Well, I can glance them!" No, you start thinking about how you're going to stop them. You'd have to roll a 6 to glance, then a 6 to immobilize. I believe that's about a 4% chance. If you don't immobilize them, they're going to run down your throat, carrying their payload deep into your backfield (or into your stealers, depending on what they're carrying). If you can only keep them shaken, they can still shoot with Machine Spirit.

And, as I said before, FNP is a 4+ save, you're going to fail 50% of them. And a flamestorm cannon dropping a template (or two, depending on how fast it moved) on your genestealers is going to net about 14-18 hits probably (double that if he gets both templates). 10-12 of those will wound and you'll save 5-6. That's still enough to force a Ld check and that's only one unit.

I'm not trying to shoot everything down here, but I think it does have some glaring weaknesses. If you have to try to make excuses for why something is worth what its worth, maybe it should be reconsidered. The tervigons are the weak link in the chain, imo. Kill them and you've neutralized half of the threat. No FNP, no spawning guants - you've caused 3D6 (I think) hits on the nearby gaunts and if the gaunts or hive guard fail their LD, they go into Lurk mode. If you want to keep the tervigons safe, you reserve them. Then you run the risk of not getting them, the genestealers far outrunning the tervigons (why you took Catalyst in the first place) or wasting turns not spawning.

As the OP pointed out - I think this list is great against Mech IG. I don't think it will do so hot against MEQ, especially BA or Wolves. Loganwing could give this list a very hard time.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/20 15:06:47


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This is was originally designed to be played in the ETC where matchup control would most likely prevent it from having to face Land Raiders. It seemed to be a very effective counter to Leafblower IG and I was wondering if this couldn't expand to razorspam lists and MSU wolves. I know there are hard counters to it, but I'm just constraining the possible oppoents to Leafblower, razorspam and MSU wolves.

The Tervigons can come on the back board edge and the stealers can outflank a side. The stealer squad is so big that you can trickle a line of stealers down to the 18" line of your deployment zone to receive the catalyst from the tervigon and still have the bulk of your stealer unit in/near your opponents deployment zone.

I really like the deployment tricks this tyoe of list plays on the Mech heavy lists. It forces them to deploy centrally, which they all can't fit into because of size, and so they spill out forward. This allows the Hive Guard to get the first shot off as they walk onto the board centrally. I'm sure the stealers are mostly toast by turn 6, but the damage those 3 squads can do might seal KP games for the bugs and the 2 Tervigons can make the scoring units later in the game to claim objectives nearby. Very interesting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Puma - A flame template wopuld pick up 5 stealers max if they were positioned 2" apart. Which means your flamestorm is killing less than 2 stealers a turn. Also coming in piecemeal does not mean your opponent can concentrate his entire force on your guys. Most likely the reserved force can come on in such a way as to severely limt their exposure to return fire. In my experience, less than half the force deployed on the table will have the opportunity to engage the reserve force as it comes onto the table.

This list also took advantage of checkerboarding the stealer units, if needed, which allows a 4+ cover save in the open. This is a rule which is allowed in the 5th edition rulebook, but forbidden under the INAT. Europe has allowed the checkerboard spacing for years. Basically two units, in the open, deploy within each other in a 2" checkerboard pattern. This grants a 4+ cover save from fire in any direction. Only sufficiently large units can get this right.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/08/20 15:12:59


 
   
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Plaguelord Titan Princeps of Nurgle




Alabama

DarthDiggler wrote:

I really like the deployment tricks this tyoe of list plays on the Mech heavy lists. It forces them to deploy centrally, which they all can't fit into because of size, and so they spill out forward.


Yes and no. If I were playing the IG army, I would stretch out my tanks as far as I could on my flank across the board. That way, it would force you to come in halfway up the board and you'd probably only get to one or two tanks. I could give up two chimeras, especially on the off chance that you don't get the board side you want.

Yes, a lot of players will deploy centrally, but I don't think it's the only way to play and deployment is one of the ways to control the game. Deploy across the board edge (in all scenarios but Pitched, even then, 12" up) and then deploy your bulk near the back of your board edge and you've screened much of your army. Enough of it that if you can lay 60+ shots into the genestealers, you may eliminate them - and that's only if they get all 3 units in and all 3 on the board edge they want.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
DarthDiggler wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Puma - A flame template wopuld pick up 5 stealers max if they were positioned 2" apart.


I don't agree here. Unless you have them in a straight line, an 8" template laid down to pick up as many models as possible will hit more than 5, in my experience, at least.

This list also took advantage of checkerboarding the stealer units, if needed, which allows a 4+ cover save in the open. This is a rule which is allowed in the 5th edition rulebook, but forbidden under the INAT. Europe has allowed the checkerboard spacing for years.


And forbidden in most tournaments here because of how beardy it is. Even so, checkerboarding clumps the stealer units together, which are great for flame templates, manticore blasts, and all other things that you want to avoid.

Edit: I've given my opinion. In the ETC, where you can choose your opponent, yes, this list may do well against Mech lists. BA or Razorwolves? I don't think so. Such precise spacing and movement don't work well with razorbacks that can move 12" and fire, or 18" altogether. And I think it would have trouble with 6-8 Razorbacks. Because, if you kill one or two, the gives the wolves an entire turn to lay into the genestealers. But, for ETC - sure. Because you know who you're facing.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/08/20 15:16:42


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Plastictrees






Salem, MA

puma713 wrote:
If I were playing the IG army, I would stretch out my tanks as far as I could on my flank across the board. That way, it would force you to come in halfway up the board and you'd probably only get to one or two tanks. I could give up two chimeras, especially on the off chance that you don't get the board side you want.


Aha, but remember that the nid player is only going to consider outflanking if he's going second. So he gets to see where your tanks set up, and if you set up as described here, he can just deploy normally and/or infiltrate instead of outflanking.

puma713 wrote:
Edit: I've given my opinion. In the ETC, where you can choose your opponent, yes, this list may do well against Mech lists. BA or Razorwolves? I don't think so. Such precise spacing and movement don't work well with razorbacks that can move 12" and fire, or 18" altogether. And I think it would have trouble with 6-8 Razorbacks. Because, if you kill one or two, the gives the wolves an entire turn to lay into the genestealers. But, for ETC - sure. Because you know who you're facing.


As somebody who plays razor spam and has seen what hiveguard units do to razorbacks, I can see this nid army giving me a hard time, even starting all in reserve. Once you start losing razors, that's your firepower blowing up and it doesn't leave you with anything to shoot at the nids in your turn. Being able to move faster and shoot doesn't matter because it's the hive guard--not stealer or MC assaults, that are threatening the razorbacks. The wheels can come off really fast.

Psychic defense puts a possible crimp in this army's playstyle by making the genestealers vulnerable. But there is still cover, and that is still 60 genestealers.

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The 60 Infiltrating Genestealers is impressive for turn two charge if you know you are going first. The toxin sacs are pretty impressive against daemons and the like, but would this list benefit from 10 toxin sac stealers and 10 adrenal gland stealer (now with 6 troops) . The Adrenal Gland may help with busting amour (av 14) and force you opponent to divert fire into two squads. Multiple templates or blast can focus one killing unit very quickly, you know… MSU style.

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DarthDiggler wrote:Most likely the reserved force can come on in such a way as to severely limt their exposure to return fire. In my experience, less than half the force deployed on the table will have the opportunity to engage the reserve force as it comes onto the table.


You figure with the ETC LOS-blocking terrain, those Hive Guard become even more golden. Played right, they can fire with impunity.

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I faced a similar list in the 4th round of the Nova Open. He won first turn, put his swarmlord, alpha, and tyrant guard on the board, along with a unit of Hive Guard and Mawloc, declared all three units of stealers outflanking. Deathleaper and two pods (one zoies, one gaunts) in reserve. Heh, I placed my entire army in Reserves. He spent two turns moving forward, got all three stealer units and deathleaper on turn 2. I walked a blob onto the flank that got two stealer units along with some chimeras and their occupants, shot down one stealer unit, shot up another enough that the blob took them out in hth later, PCS chimera pushed forward far enough to disembark and melta down the now exposed death leaper. Pretty much left his last squad and the termie pod out of position, letting me gun down his big guys now walking towards me.
And that's the problem with this build. Even if he goes first and infiltrates the stealers, I can gun down (at least make them combat ineffective) two 20 man squads of them with blobs (gotta love FRFSRF), letting my tanks and other vehicles (gotta love no cover save weapons) pick off remnants or weaken the third squad. Then starting about turn 3 I focus on his other stuff. Sure, he'll probably kill my 4 AV 12 vehicles with those hive guard, but then they become ineffective anti-infantry platforms.

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Actually the list looks fairly tough for most armies. Only exception I would guess would be LR heavy. I would not want to draw that list with Deamons or Orks either. At first look I wouldnt think.......ohhh that list sure could rip up guard. Maybe thats what they were banking on?

I wonder how this tactic "scales up" to larger points 2000, or 2500.

I still am scratching my head trying to come up with a 2500 nid list that could take out a mech IG gunline. A friend of mine played mech IG in Ard Boyz and it took him 4 turns or less all three games to shoot his opponent off the board. Dnot know if anyone tried anything like this though....very interesting.
   
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There's a key difference between the list you faced, Don Mondo, and the ETC list. Your opponent didn't take tervigons with catalyst to protect the genestealers from your FRFSRF and flamers. That's the thing, IMO, that makes the ETC list work. Also your opponent wasted a ton of points on the Swarmlord, alpha, Deathleaper and tyrant guard. He's doing the standard thing of trying to make a 4th edition stealer shock army with a bunch of overpriced 5th edition toys--doomed to fail.

(Also your brief battle report demonstrates the value of going all in reserve, and also the way that hive commander works *against* nids and should never be taken.)

With the ETC list against your list, your opponent should infiltrate in cover on your side of the table (never ever outflank if you're going first, duh), eat your first turn's fire with catalyst on, then overrun you with genestealers.

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You, sir, are a list tailorer. Stop doing that and learn to beat your opponent by your skill of the game not by just knowing that unit A beats unit B, so therefore taking 3 units of A. When you list tailor people get bored of you quickly.

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Salem, MA

Who are you talking to, zeekill? The guy who wrote the original list is Polish, probably doesn't read Dakka.

Anyway part of my point is that I think this list is much more widely workable than posters here are giving it credit for. It'll struggle most against land raiders and armies with heavy psychic defense, but would work better IMO than any other 5th edition stealer shock list I've yet seen.

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I saw that list also and it's interesting. Though it definitely seems tailor made for ETC style terrain. I don't know how well it will work in US style '3 hills + 3 walls if your lucky' boards.

The part of this list that seems a bit off are the 9 hive guard. Not that they aren't good, but in a list that is mostly reserved, and where there's only two synpase creatures? I forsee alot of issues with lurk and/or range.

I'd almost be inclined to run more of a mix of zoanthropes/hivegaurd instead. Or t-fexes perhaps. Especially if going to 2k.

This is true, however, again, you'll be well out of range for Catalyst and, in most of the games that I've played, a unit of 20 genestealers won't be completely out of LOS, in any case.

Couple of issues with this statement. For one, 20 man stealers coming in from the shortedge or infiltrating, they could easily trail a few back toward a tervigon's 12" range (I do something similar occasionally with 16 strong units). For two, its not about getting them completely out of LOS, its about getting a 4+ cover save and the FNP. That makes them more resilient then marines.

Also your brief battle report demonstrates the value of going all in reserve, and also the way that hive commander works *against* nids and should never be taken.

Or it demonstrates his opponent over estimated his stealers, placed them poorly and under estimated the blob squads and IG shooting.

Still, I am on the fence as far as hive commander for the same reason (but that is a discussion for another thread).

You, sir, are a list tailorer. Stop doing that and learn to beat your opponent by your skill of the game not by just knowing that unit A beats unit B, so therefore taking 3 units of A. When you list tailor people get bored of you quickly.

This is a tournament list, designed around the current meta. He's not taking this list against mech IG and then turning around and taking some other list against a different opponent. Its also a bit ludicrous to heap such scorn on this list -- do you go around to every other thread admonishing the las/plas razor spam or melta spam?

Its also kind of funny since Darth is one of the posters on this board who has used to good effect an allcomers 'toolbox' list. Quite franly he doesn't need your trollish advice.

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Flavius Infernus wrote:There's a key difference between the list you faced, Don Mondo, and the ETC list. Your opponent didn't take tervigons with catalyst to protect the genestealers from your FRFSRF and flamers. That's the thing, IMO, that makes the ETC list work.

With the ETC list against your list, your opponent should infiltrate in cover on your side of the table (never ever outflank if you're going first, duh), eat your first turn's fire with catalyst on, then overrun you with genestealers.


I just don't get how you're putting so much emphasis on Catalyst. It is not a game-breaker. It is a 12" power that limits your range severely. And if you play to keep your units in a certain bubble so they can have something cast on them, that limits your movement even further. Not only that, but it is just a 4+ reroll. It's not like the genestealers have a 2+/4++ or anything. Read Dash's batrep against the same list Don Mondo is talking about - FNP would not have helped genestealers that much against deffrollas, power klaws, and 120 wounds worth of Burnas.

To say that FNP (especially one that has to be cast) makes or breaks an army is inaccurate. I think it helps keep them alive, but turn a beatable army into an unbeatable one, it does not.

Edit: To be clear, I'm not saying this list won't work. I'm just saying I think it needs some tweaking.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/20 19:31:13


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Flavius Infernus wrote:(1) catalyst on stealers is like giving them their old 4+ extended carapace back--except it also works against heavy flamers. Granted it only works on one unit at a time, but there are only 3 stealer units here and you can use catalyzed unit(s) to screen others, and screen the big bugs & hive guard. Because stealers are T4, their FNP works against the widespread str6-7 shooting that guard armies have.
I've been having great success w/large stealer units (I like 16-18), supported with Catalyst for a few months now. They're great to infiltrate with, as you get to set up after your opponent is deployed, and broadly enough to ensure cover saves, to go with your FNP. And it's hard for most armies to simply ignore 16-20 stealers who will be assaulting on turn 2.

The most effective counter is actually good old double-lash chaos, as you can cluster the 'stealers back up, outside of cover, and plasma cannon them down. It hurts. Counter-psyker abilities are an obvious pain, too (but as it's a movement-phase power, at least you can move/run the stealers to try and mitigate failure).

I'd drop one unit of Hive Guard, as great as they are, and add some Ymgarl. One more threat, and on those terrain-heavy tables, they can be almost anywhere, while still threatening the middle. Now you've got stealers outflanking, maybe stealers infiltrating as well, plus some Ymgarl who are going to hop out and eat something. Multiple threat vectors are great.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/08/20 19:29:56


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winterman wrote:

puma713 wrote:This is true, however, again, you'll be well out of range for Catalyst and, in most of the games that I've played, a unit of 20 genestealers won't be completely out of LOS, in any case.

Couple of issues with this statement. For one, 20 man stealers coming in from the shortedge or infiltrating, they could easily trail a few back toward a tervigon's 12" range (I do something similar occasionally with 16 strong units). For two, its not about getting them completely out of LOS, its about getting a 4+ cover save and the FNP. That makes them more resilient then marines.


I was referring to his prior statement about infiltrating them 12" away. If you're within LOS, you can't infilitrate 12" away. Even infiltrating 18" away, you've got to string back a bit to get the power, limiting your mobility. If you're too concerned with making sure something is within 12" of your own model, how're you going to control the tempo of the rest of the game, when those BA razorbacks fall back 12" and open fire? And again, it's just FNP. It's not as all-powerful as folks are making it out to be. It's still a numbers game. If you throw enough shots at something, it will die.

However, you and I do agree that the lack of synapse could be troubling.

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I was referring to his prior statement about infiltrating them 12" away. If you're within LOS, you can't infilitrate 12" away.

Oops sorry, quote fail on my part -- just trying to get the point across regarding the size of the unit making it much easier to get FNP on the unit then you might expect.
And again, it's just FNP. It's not as all-powerful as folks are making it out to be. It's still a numbers game. If you throw enough shots at something, it will die.

For a rather expensive model that gets gibbed by bolter fire, its pretty big deal actually. I do agree that catalyst gets talked up a bit more then it deserves (especially for something like the 10ish termagants units - T3 fnp isn't all that great -- but i see it suggested for them all the time), but in the case of a large 200+ point stealer unit with cover? Its pretty damn nice.

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winterman wrote:
I was referring to his prior statement about infiltrating them 12" away. If you're within LOS, you can't infilitrate 12" away.

Oops sorry, quote fail on my part -- just trying to get the point across regarding the size of the unit making it much easier to get FNP on the unit then you might expect.
And again, it's just FNP. It's not as all-powerful as folks are making it out to be. It's still a numbers game. If you throw enough shots at something, it will die.

For a rather expensive model that gets gibbed by bolter fire, its pretty big deal actually. I do agree that catalyst gets talked up a bit more then it deserves (especially for something like the 10ish termagants units - T3 fnp isn't all that great -- but i see it suggested for them all the time), but in the case of a large 200+ point stealer unit with cover? Its pretty damn nice.


Yeah, giving your entire army FNP can be nice. It's like playing Nidcrons. However, something about having two Tervigons for it seems a bit. . .off to me. This is generally why I don't comment on lists on Dakka. I hate telling anyone how to play their list. It's not my money. It's not my time. Play the list the way you like to play it. They're your models and if you like the list, play it. I guess I just got sucked into this one.

My opinion turned into list advice, which I don't like to give (whether it's good advice or not!).

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Plastictrees






Salem, MA

Winterman: look outside the box. It's not a list that's mostly reserved. It's a list that can *either* go all in reserve *or* deploy for a turn 2 assault. I have a Shrike army that plays according to a similar dynamic (except it's a turn 1 assault, using sternguard melta instead of hive guard). Which one you do depends on your opponent's army, but in general against shooty and/or mech opponents you deploy/infiltrate if you're going first, and reserve if you're going second.

So the hive guard are vital for opening transports so your stealers can immediately assault whatever drops out. It isn't necessary to outflank--just bring the stealers in with the other stuff from reserve. If I played this army, I probably would almost never outflank, or more likely I'd add a very small unit of stealers to outflank just to keep the opponent from hugging the short edges.

Puma: my remark about infiltrating 12.1" was a reference to the ETC tournament where the terrain was not like U.S. terrain. I play infiltrating armies all the time, and I've only ever been able to infiltrate inside 18" a couple of times on U.S. terrain tables.

But you don't really need a turn 1 charge. As already pointed out, a cover save and FNP save is actually statistically a bit better than a 3+ save. So stealers in cover with catalyst can weather a turn of small-arms fire about as well as a unit of space marines, then charge in on turn 2.

Also I think you're getting hung up on the 12" thing for catalyst. It's actually often more like a bit less than 18" because you can move the tervigons to within 12" of the stealers, cast the power, and then move the stealers up. Or, with huge units like that, it's easy to string out a long tail to pick up the power/synapse, while maintaining a projected front.

Either way, missing catalyst for a few turns here and there isn't a dealbreaker unless you happen to be standing bunched up in front of a line of heavy flamers. You still got T4 on a hella lot of genestealers, and once you're stuck in, catalyst is less important.

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