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DISCLAMER: this is all based on the assumption that their playstyle does not change drastically and is mainly for fun and the assumption that they will be at least somewhat popular.

So, I was just wondering what other people might think. And I'm obviously one of those sucky players whose opinion doesn't really matter anyway, so who cares . I just thought it would be interesting to brainstorm.

Personally, I think that it could have a potentially drastic change on the current meta. Right now, meching up is the most common strategy, but if DE retain their ability to field ungodly amounts of Dark Lances, that could change some. Because facing down 20+ dark lances is a pretty big deterrent to bringing an army that could be neutered turn one. I'm sure GW would love this because it would mean players would have to buy more boxes of troops and elites and what have you because now all those tanks they bought before aren't as great as they used to be.

Maybe we'll see more people playing necrons and black templars because their vehicles can actually stand up against a dark lance barrage. That's somewhat doubtful, but we'll see.

Currently, melta is the go to anti tank weapon. Maybe we'll see less melta and more... other stuff because getting that close to an army of fast skimmers is pretty challenging. With their weak armor the 2d6 to pen is also pretty irrelevant. Also, the transports that actually deliver said melta could very well just get blown up first turn anyway. So, taking long ranged anti-tank could be a lot more important than it is now.

-In conclusion, more footy armies, less imperials, and more auto/las cannons.

This is what this noob came up with, probably wrong but could be possible.

I don't know nuttin' 'bout meta, but from what I've read, my guess will be less anti tank, more assault weapons and high rate of fire, and more blast/flamer, to quickly take out rapidly redeployed enemies. Maybe even more fearless, if they're keeping the terrofex around. Never actually played against it, but its rules are amazing.

OP:

Everything you mentioned for potential future META is actually the current state of Dark Eldar. In the top-tier competitive lists, SW have a fething crapton of missile launchers, blood angels have a metric crapton of assault cannons and autocannons with some lascannons strewn around, and there is some meltra floating around in there.

If the DE retain the ability to field "ungodly" amount of Dark lances....meching up is *still* a good strategy. Both SW and Mech IG can outshoot DE. Chimeras are a nightmare for DE to deal with; we're one shot 3+ to hit, 4+ to glance....they're THREE shots with 4+ to hit, 4+ to glance, and +1 to the result table. There's no universe where a firefight against a meched up army like that isn't a losing proposition. In terms of everyone ELSE...if you're talking about meching up in land raiders, that's a losing proposition anyway, which is why they're becoming less and less common in the top lists - the abundance of Melta has made sure of that. Plenty of armies can almost match the DE in terms of numbers of vehicles, and can make them quite survivable - from simple things like having AV12 on the front with a chimera, to having an SoS with Blood Angels, to other stuff.

The new DE codex needs to seriously wtfpwn the codex creep started by Mech IG and now Space Wolves; there needs to be an answer to those two codexes, and DE should be the ones to provide it. We'll see soon enough.

SamplesoWoopass wrote:DISCLAMER: this is all based on the assumption that their playstyle does not change drastically and is mainly for fun and the assumption that they will be at least somewhat popular.

So, I was just wondering what other people might think. And I'm obviously one of those sucky players whose opinion doesn't really matter anyway, so who cares . I just thought it would be interesting to brainstorm.

Personally, I think that it could have a potentially drastic change on the current meta. Right now, meching up is the most common strategy, but if DE retain their ability to field ungodly amounts of Dark Lances, that could change some. Because facing down 20+ dark lances is a pretty big deterrent to bringing an army that could be neutered turn one. I'm sure GW would love this because it would mean players would have to buy more boxes of troops and elites and what have you because now all those tanks they bought before aren't as great as they used to be.

Maybe we'll see more people playing necrons and black templars because their vehicles can actually stand up against a dark lance barrage. That's somewhat doubtful, but we'll see.

Currently, melta is the go to anti tank weapon. Maybe we'll see less melta and more... other stuff because getting that close to an army of fast skimmers is pretty challenging. With their weak armor the 2d6 to pen is also pretty irrelevant. Also, the transports that actually deliver said melta could very well just get blown up first turn anyway. So, taking long ranged anti-tank could be a lot more important than it is now.

-In conclusion, more footy armies, less imperials, and more auto/las cannons.

This is what this noob came up with, probably wrong but could be possible.

We won't be able to tell until the new codex comes out. As is, Dark Eldar cannot handle full mech armies. Dark Lances are not very effective at taking out armor. It will be interesting to see if they get some king of a melta weapon in the new codex.

@ dash. Hmmm, I suppose since I've never played WITH DE and only against them with my necrons (hehehehe) I could have overestimated the effectiveness of DL spam. Although, since you run wyche cult instead of the more common warrior cabal (which to my understanding has less lances) maybe they could deal with those chimeras in 5-7 turns of the game. Again, just me talkin' out my ass.

And yes, I realize that what I said is the current state of DE, I'm just guessing that as it is, people don't really consider them when they write their army lists because their models held back their growth. But with the new cool looking models that I'm sure you've seen that could very well change so people would have more situations to consider when deciding what to take.

Although, everything else you said still applies thus, I'm pwned : (.

I just want the new codex to hurry up and come out. I don't care what it does to the meta game lol.

I stopped running a kabal BECAUSE of Mech IG; they can't answer that many chimeras. Rather than try, I thought I'd just play an assault army - if conditions are right, I can still potentially win - my IG strategy is focused around going first and my haywire grenades.

The suggestion is that the ravager can fire all lances while moving cruising - should help with side armour shots, at least.

Will be interesting. The strength through pain rule seems to really pay dividends for assaulting armies - wyches with FNP??

Its all over man, the dark eldar are just to strong, the 40k universe will soon collapse!

Sarcasm aside I really don't think a whole lot is gonna change, unless the new codex is like broken over powered, which I doubt will happen (I remember the worries about tyranids and there many wound MCs but the codex balanced it all out) it will just be another army, that people will make small adjustments to accommodate in there armys. But really its hard to make any assumptions until we have the full codex, not just the scary looking bits people remember from skimming through it.

I don't think there will be enough DE players to really force the meta outside of the current Meq and anti Meq and IG that we have now. They aren't that appealing an army to the vast majority of players, and their play style, if it remains similar, isn't for most people (too unforgiving of mistakes).

That being said, I like my DE, and have had much fun with them. They have been on the shelve lately, since I've been playing other armies, and my army never got updated to 5th ed.

I honestly don't think the way Dark Eldar plays will be much different at all. There will just be more of them, now that they have amazing models as opposed to ugly Gary Morley sculpts from 1998. In other words, heavier armor will get bloodied pretty bad, while light armor like chimeras won't see much of a change. That much lance really means nothing against vehicles that are AV12 anyway.

It'll change the meta by inducing more idiots to use the term "meta" as though there actually was one.

Skarboy wrote:It'll change the meta by inducing more idiots to use the term "meta" as though there actually was one.

Why thank you for your insightful comment. I'm glad that the dakka community is blessed with your almighty presence. I mean, you're obviously the smartest and most elite gamer/person of alllll time. In fact, you're such a gem in the community that I'm pretty sure that humanity would cease to function with out your presence.

No there is no 'metagame', there's only a generalized trend across the entire spectrum of the game towards certain playstyles which then spawn countering generalized playstyles to deal with....wait a second!

I second notabot, there's not enough DE players in the fandom to really change things, the codex will most likely just motivate the diehard DE fans (is there really any other kind of DE players?) to take their armies to events more often and play-up their existing trait of being the obscure Knuckleball faction. There maybe a few FOTMs and a few new DE players, but I don't think its going to overhaul things like a new Codex: Smurfs 2: Melta-Boogaloo.

Eyclonus wrote:I second notabot, there's not enough DE players in the fandom to really change things, the codex will most likely just motivate the diehard DE fans (is there really any other kind of DE players?) to take their armies to events more often and play-up their existing trait of being the obscure Knuckleball faction. There maybe a few FOTMs and a few new DE players, but I don't think its going to overhaul things like a new Codex: Smurfs 2: Melta-Boogaloo.

I think you're underestimating the draw here. If the rumors of being able to assault after a flat-out move are true, this is *the* mobile army in a game based on mobility.

It also helps that the army actually has models that: a. are awesome and b. will actually be in stores.

DE, if rumors are true were written early 5th, when GW didn't realize about how effective mech were, back when C:SM came out. This probably alludes to them actually not being a unbeatable mech army like IG, rather, in the light of later 5th edition codex's, a sadly weakish army. I really do hope this won't happen though.

yournamehere wrote:Its all over man, the dark eldar are just to strong, the 40k universe will soon collapse!

Hah! I cant wait to see Vect one-shot an Avatar, or team up with tau and eldar to create a second super-pal buddy pact to fight Deamons or something. That or kill the swarmlord for good (maybe tortured for eternety?) and enslave the Void Dragon by raiding mars without being noticed.

sniperjolly wrote:

yournamehere wrote:Its all over man, the dark eldar are just to strong, the 40k universe will soon collapse!

Hah! I cant wait to see Vect one-shot an Avatar, or team up with tau and eldar to create a second super-pal buddy pact to fight Deamons or something. That or kill the swarmlord for good (maybe tortured for eternety?) and enslave the Void Dragon by raiding mars without being noticed.

Well at least it won't be the Blood angels background and timeline... /gag reflex

In other news...

I think the sheer volume of Dark Eldar players there are going to be will change the dynamic of the 'meta-game', even if things like the dark lance maximisation is still a viable choice for them, because of that volume. Certain lists currently enjoying the limelight will vanish, just as those lists arose to push previous power lists off the top tables. Once those number crunching types start producing the power lists from the new codex, so the new evolution for everyone else begins.

Look at the feedback in the dark eldar pics thread, it's very positive, there are going to be a crap-ton of these things sold. Volume will shape a new game list-wise, whereas the last few releases (a lacklustre tyranid codex, overpowered and simplistic SW and BA which are, despite their gimmicks still marines) have not really altered things on a great scale.

Isn't this discussion a bit premature? No-one knows anything about point costs, availability of weapons, the statistics of the new weapons that are certain to come out, the cost and ability of various new or redone assault units, etc.

The only thing we can be fairly sure of is that a load of new abilities will be introduced. It does seem that almost all armies will still be based around AV10-11 fast skimmers (I can't imagine that those won't be made cheap, competitive choices like every other basic transport in recent codexes). But everyone is talking about loads of dark lances. While I'm sure those will stay in the codex, no-one knows what cost they will be or how many can be taken, or what other weapons will be available as competition. So what's the point? Let's have this discussion once we've actually read the codex.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:Isn't this discussion a bit premature?

These discussions have surfaced about dark eldar and grey knights etc for months and years. We have a miniature range to view now, the codex is inbound and will be leaking snippets from folks who get to see it so the picture will grow clearer as time goes on.

I've no idea about what concrete changes there will be beyond there will actually be Dark Eldar players to compete with for once, so I'm not sure I agree with Dash's idea that not much will change.

Well if they stay with their heavy anti-vehicle capability and the meta is vehicle spam and anti-vehicle weaponry to counter it, there really isn't any need for the meta to change.

I'm hoping that the Dark Lance spam combined with the lot that are dragged behind the flavour of the month bandwagon will lead to less full mech in the meta and more infantry based. But, it's not like I see the meta in real life anyway. I still haven't seen a full mech army

SamplesoWoopass wrote:

Skarboy wrote:It'll change the meta by inducing more idiots to use the term "meta" as though there actually was one.

Why thank you for your insightful comment. I'm glad that the dakka community is blessed with your almighty presence. I mean, you're obviously the smartest and most elite gamer/person of alllll time. In fact, you're such a gem in the community that I'm pretty sure that humanity would cease to function with out your presence.

I agree with Skarboy.. I posted this earlier today, it is edited for clarity;

You see the point? By not fighting on their terms, only your own you have the advantage. Essentially it seems that forums try to treat warhammer / 40k as an advanced form of magic the gathering - by the emperor we have talk of a METAGAME ?? What in the name of Sanguinus's bloodly nipple is that about? META? Does no one realise it's a circle jerk?

AHA! everyone brings scissors ergo I will bring rock... but people will be brining rock to beat the scissors so I need to have paper instead... but the scissors will beat my paper *head explode*
Yes you can have tactics, and strategies etc (hiding eldar rangers behind harlequins = a tactic or a syngergy) but if you are making a list to combat what you think your enemy might have you will probably loose if he out thinks you by one step on the meta ladder.
Rather by using your own methods, tactics, unique to yourself or just 'not that popular' you have the advantage against a 'superior' force. Good options are the 'no one uses xyz units' Yes they might be really really really crap. However they might just not be popular because something is better MOST OF THE TIME. However if you take said 'suboptimal unit' generally two things happen: Opponent goes 'lol phail unit' and ignores it/underestimates it so you have the advantage or else goes 'ZOMG the the XYZ unit! There must be something ubar they can do!!! DIE!!' and wastes time killing a medocre unit.

...

If everyone is thinking the same then no one is thinking

The game is much better, and bigger than some mtg style build of the block that many spout. Ignore them, pick a list you like, has cool stuff you think is fun and play a game.

Like the 'mech' meta.. just like ya know not take tanks and take more infantry and watch them absorb missiles. 1 lascannon = 1 dead leman russ or 1 dead guardsman... The problem with the 'meta' is lack of diversity. Only unlike mtg there are no 'tier' army lists. In mtg you have 60 cards 20 life and draw 7. The only random factors are - if you go first and the order of your deck (which you minimse with thinning, fetches, and card advantage) in 40k almost everything short of not moving through difficult terrain and weapon ranges is random. Yes some lists might work better but there's more factors like terrain, starting side and so on. Also what your opponent does. I have in games made deliberate stupid moves to throw my opponent off. When it gets to the stage where you opponents go 'you'll move x unit to y and do z' just ignore them or move x somewhere else, do q instead of z, run instead of shoot, something.

It's sad because talk of that spells the death of the hobby, new players will come online get a 'tier 1 list' (spaze marinez?) and then no one will play anything - because the meta says we should play spaze marines.

HOWEVER : if you look at any top mtg players you will find that they have thought so far outside the box you didn't even know there was a box that you were in.

Moral of the story; meta is bullcrap, army list advice is good but if everyone's thinking the same then no one is thinking!

Claiming 'there is no meta, think outside the box, do the unpredictable!' doesn't change reality. Right now mech is cheap, powerful and very available. YThere is a lot of it in the game. When there is a lot of armor, there will become a lot of anti-armor to deal with it. If you don't take a lot of anti-armor you get spanked.

That is a metagame. Saying it isn't so doesn't make it so no matter how many words you use.

I really, really hope Dark Eldar can just chew up and spit out mech lists without a hiccup or a burp. Maybe we can swing things back to some kind of neutral ground.

But if you wish to play against the meta you bring no tanks and then the AT stuff is wasted

SamplesoWoopass wrote:DISCLAMER: this is all based on the assumption that their playstyle does not change drastically and is mainly for fun and the assumption that they will be at least somewhat popular.

So, I was just wondering what other people might think. And I'm obviously one of those sucky players whose opinion doesn't really matter anyway, so who cares . I just thought it would be interesting to brainstorm.

Personally, I think that it could have a potentially drastic change on the current meta. Right now, meching up is the most common strategy, but if DE retain their ability to field ungodly amounts of Dark Lances, that could change some. Because facing down 20+ dark lances is a pretty big deterrent to bringing an army that could be neutered turn one. I'm sure GW would love this because it would mean players would have to buy more boxes of troops and elites and what have you because now all those tanks they bought before aren't as great as they used to be.

Maybe we'll see more people playing necrons and black templars because their vehicles can actually stand up against a dark lance barrage. That's somewhat doubtful, but we'll see.

Currently, melta is the go to anti tank weapon. Maybe we'll see less melta and more... other stuff because getting that close to an army of fast skimmers is pretty challenging. With their weak armor the 2d6 to pen is also pretty irrelevant. Also, the transports that actually deliver said melta could very well just get blown up first turn anyway. So, taking long ranged anti-tank could be a lot more important than it is now.

-In conclusion, more footy armies, less imperials, and more auto/las cannons.

This is what this noob came up with, probably wrong but could be possible.

IMO these guys are going to continue the trend of the last year: you're either super shooty, super fast, or super dead. The game is effectively decided by turn 2. Either they arrive in their ultra fast skimmers and wreck your gak, or they dont and they die horribly. I expect to see something in that book that will cause your opponent to reroll invulnerable saves or perhaps even ignore them all together, also something that gives you some control over your reserves, since those are trends running through alot of books right now. How it effects the meta in the sense of the top tier army depends on just how fast and hard they hit. Its possible that they could unseat guard if they get a good anti-tank assault weapon, which would let them crack chimeras and charge right out of their open topped transports in one turn. I somehow doubt this though, since dark eldar warriors will remain pretty expensive compared to guardsmen, and they probably wont be able to spam specials like guard can; also, even if they do come in cheap, they're most likely to get a lance rather than a melta weapon for their up close anti-tank workd, and chimeras are armor 12 anyway. They might damage thunderwolf spam armies since they have the mobility to stay away from the wolves. it depends on if they get, at the same time, a big blast weapon that can insta-kill them. if they dont it will just take longer for the thunderwolves to catch and murder the elves; if they do it will depend on whether their skimmers get some kind of protection vs long range firepower, since long fangs can just missile the gak out of them and cripple the whole army if they hang back to shoot the thunderwolves. If the answer to both of those questions is no, and they dont get some kind of amazing super rule, I think they'll die horribly to wolves in close combat like everything else, poisoned weapons or no. (poisoned power weapons are another story though....) as far as blood angels I dont see them having much of an effect, since blood angels are every bit as fast as dark eldar and feel no pain pretty effectively cancels poisoned attacks.

Just based on what I know now I dont think they'll radically alter the game unless there is some kind of massive new special rule or dark eldar units end up being horribly under priced.
AF