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Are imperial guard artillery pieces worth it? Despite massive amounts of firepower these things can lay down, they are limited by their weak armor, inaccuracy, and/or minimum range. Still, as previously stated, the sheer death they can inflict on anyone and anything is awe-inspiring. Plus (especially with the death korps) they are pretty dang cool. Who doesn't like the idea of a full artillery regiment unloading on the foe? Still and all, what are the tactical possibilities for such devices? (Manticore and deathstrike missile launcher included.)

Manticore is awesome. 3 strength 10 ap 4 large Templates possible per turn. Deathstrike is fun but not good in play. Should be more expensive and more destructive. I'm not that experienced a player but I think its a great idea. Lots of artillery and lots of regular gaurdsmen.

Don't forget you can fire the Manticore and the Basilisk direct, removing the minimum distance. weaker armor can bet helped a little by "bubble wrapping", putting cheap troops between Arty piece and attacker. vehicles like Chimeras can help, with terrain, to block shooting attacks. i run a Manticore in every list, personally.

Bassies and Manticores are beasts. I know someone swore by Colossus's but I think theres plenty of anti marine weapons from troops and etc.

prussia59 wrote:Are imperial guard artillery pieces worth it? Despite massive amounts of firepower these things can lay down, they are limited by their weak armor, inaccuracy, and/or minimum range. Still, as previously stated, the sheer death they can inflict on anyone and anything is awe-inspiring. Plus (especially with the death korps) they are pretty dang cool. Who doesn't like the idea of a full artillery regiment unloading on the foe? Still and all, what are the tactical possibilities for such devices? (Manticore and deathstrike missile launcher included.)

They all work...although the Deathstrike is literally a hit or miss.....but all the rest REALLY work, even the bassie which most people rank the lowest....the advent of better vehicle cover saves as well as a "friendlier" vehicle damage table makes artillery more sturdy versus enemy direct fire (ie missile launchers and lascannons) than in previous editions, and thus the IG artillery section is actually one of the best entries in the entire dex. Those artillery pieces which can fire indirect also have the advantage of negating the very same cover save rules which make artillery more sturdy, as well as hit versus enemy vehicle side armor, and this also makes them more valuable as compared to previous editions

I wish I had invested in them when I was first building my army. Got lots of tanks but 2 Manticore and 3 Medusa or Basilisks = FUN!

I've never had minimum range problems with artillery, in part because I've always taken artillery that had the option of firing directly.

As for the rest... meh. I think it's REALLY easy for people to only look at the maximum possible damage artillery can put out and have their eyes bulge out of their heads. Of course, in the real world of 40k, vehicles are shaken, BS3 is terrible, opponents displace troops, and you still need to roll to wound. Once all of these get filtered out (occasionally with cover involved), then yeah, what you actually get is usually much less than what you can potentially get.

I think their points cost is pretty accurate. As such, a manticore will probably do about as much for your army over all as a tac squad will do for a marine army.

Personally, I used to take manticores and basilisks, but they were the only part of my army that chronically underpreformed. Instead, I've been running hydras and extra infantry as of late, and it's done me pretty well so far.

One player at my FLGS runs a trio of Medusae that have reduced my kan wall to scrap on more than one occasion. I recommend them highly.

Incidentally, I maintain that he accomplished this completely by luck.

... yes, or take artillery when they're specifically going to be useful. If your opponent likes hordes of crappy vehicles (as above), manticores are a good counter. If your opponent relies entirely on devestators, then a colossus is a good investment.

If you're constantly facing off against something in particular that artillery is a counter to, then by all means...

The Manticore is loads of fun. Up to 3 S10 Ordinance pie plates a turn, massive range...it's good against anything it hits, with the exception of MEQ and better. It's very nice against vehicles, I've found.

I run two Griffins over the manticore. Harder to kill ( sorta) cheaper (not by much tho) and generally except tanks have the same effect. Lacking insta kill kinda stinks but a very very accurate bombardment from two usually means more wounds and hits and you are almost always going to get 2 shots a turn compared to the manticore.

I'm planning on running as many artilery pieces as I can get my hands on in my IG army, surrounded by waves of infantrymen.

Love the whole WWI/early WWII idea of bigger guns + fortifications = better

SilverMK2 wrote:I'm planning on running as many artilery pieces as I can get my hands on in my IG army, surrounded by waves of infantrymen.

Love the whole WWI/early WWII idea of bigger guns + fortifications = better

Yea me too.

darkknightzach wrote:I run two Griffins over the manticore. Harder to kill ( sorta) cheaper (not by much tho) and generally except tanks have the same effect. Lacking insta kill kinda stinks but a very very accurate bombardment from two usually means more wounds and hits and you are almost always going to get 2 shots a turn compared to the manticore.

their biggest drawback is the min. range, IMHO.

As already stated--here and in every thread about IG artillery--minimum range only applies to indirect shots. There is no minimum range for direct ordinance shots from IG artillery.

Indirect shots:
-minimum range applies
-LoS not required
-Pinning at -1 Ld
-Vehicle cannot have moved in the movement phase
-Scatters full distance *if the gun doesn't have LoS*
-Shot counts as coming from the center of the blast, so ignores intervening terrain
-Counts as hitting side armor of target vehicles

Direct shots:
-No minimum range
-Los required
-Vehicle can have moved at combat speed
-Scatters distance rolled minus BS
-no pinning
-Shot counts as coming from the direction of the gun, regardless where it scatters.
-Counts as hitting target vehicle facing that is toward the gun

Every IG artillery piece except the colossus can fire in direct shot mode.

Ailaros wrote:I've never had minimum range problems with artillery, in part because I've always taken artillery that had the option of firing directly.

As for the rest... meh. I think it's REALLY easy for people to only look at the maximum possible damage artillery can put out and have their eyes bulge out of their heads. Of course, in the real world of 40k, vehicles are shaken, BS3 is terrible, opponents displace troops, and you still need to roll to wound. Once all of these get filtered out (occasionally with cover involved), then yeah, what you actually get is usually much less than what you can potentially get.

I think their points cost is pretty accurate. As such, a manticore will probably do about as much for your army over all as a tac squad will do for a marine army.

Personally, I used to take manticores and basilisks, but they were the only part of my army that chronically underpreformed. Instead, I've been running hydras and extra infantry as of late, and it's done me pretty well so far.

That's funny since my bassie and manticore do quite well..not ALL the time mind you, but most of the time they are OK, and there are times they were downright fantastic.

Hydras are also very good....for me it is the HS slots which are the most competitive and where I do the most juggling between different lists (where others find the FA tight, for me FA and elites are the most loose, and often times I do not fill all the slots up for these)...

I always dismissed the artillery section as too weakly armoured. Then found that Necron warriors can hide in ruins behind monoliths all they want when its raining collossus shells.

Mwa ha ha haaa

Artillery seems to be more of a benefit in higher point games. The more targets you have in a confined space, the greater their chances of performing. Table size can help/hurt their performance as well.

personally, I love rolling the scatter die. I have better luck with those things than any other six sided die i've ever thrown.

Honestly, I swear by my artillery. and my friends curse them. Nothing like removing entire squads of tyranid warriors in a single attack from, or harassing tau who are trying to snipe from their corner, from further back in your corner, or even behind a building where they can't shoot back. Not too mention the bonus of them pretty much always having some use... even with a weapons destroyed result, one of my basilisks ran down a squad of marines and crushed its sergeant... (my buddy has never DoG'ed me ever again. lol) I mean the potential for making up their pt value is quite high, considering they can pretty much always hit something, and in the case of basilisks and manticores, their hits are instant kills against many units.

freddieyu1 wrote:That's funny since my bassie and manticore do quite well..not ALL the time mind you, but most of the time they are OK, and there are times they were downright fantastic.

The problem is that human brains tend to suffer from selective bias. You only remember the games where that one time, that one shot, was make or break, and it pulled through in the clinch, and then simply ignore or forget everything else. This leaves you with the false impression that they're fantastic, because when you try and remember how they've done for you, you only remember the times they were fantastic.

over the next several games, take a careful, detailed look at what your artillery is really doing (and compare it to what you should statistically expect to help filter out luck), and in what circumstances they're doing it. In my case, I write battle reports, so I have documented proof of what my artillery has done every turn of every game.

When you're forced to confront what artillery does in it's entirety, instead of just selecting when it was awesome, you start to get a feel for why guard artillery is so cheap.

Admittedly artillery is not always awesome in my battles,but the good thing about guard is that they have other threats/guns to smother the enemy with.
Also dice plays a part as always, even if you're sure you have a good unit thats supposed to perform well, it may or may not.

I reckon it comes down to the luck of the scatter dice. I happen to hardly get a hit on the scatter dice in about 95% of my games.

But when i do hit...........THE PAIN! that is wreaked on the space marines is truly amazing.

Is there any viability to a list with chimera vets and artillery? Something like 5 Chimeras of vets, 1 CCS in Chimera, with 2x 2 Basilisk battery and a manticore?

The vulnerability of artillery is offset by having a lot of other vehicles presenting credible threats in an army. So, yes, having chimeras and hellhounds and Russes driving around doing stuff will make your artillery more survivable. An opponent who concentrates fire on your artillery can take it out, but will be at a disadvantage against all your other threats.

One combo that I've tried and liked a lot is a basilisk sitting behind a standard russ. A lot of times the basilisk is getting the 3+ cover save, and it can still shoot over or pivot a bit for direct shots.

The one place where artillery might struggle a lot with survivability is with 2 or 3 vehicles in an otherwise all-infantry army. Everybody has a couple of extra long-range antitank guns they can throw at your vehicles to stop them from shooting. You really need to go with 5+ vehicles in an army to see them become survivable enough to be useful.

Artillery isn't *that* cheap. But it is a good deal for a glass cannon. Including the manticore/deathstrike and hydra is a little disleading since they are a bit tougher.

I really like the hydra. Four twin linked long range autocannon shots is awesome, and quite a fair price when you compare it to HWT who die if breathed on wrong and are immobile.

I also like the manticore. On average, you are getting two S10 blasts, which is great against just about anything. Even marines have to be wary of it since it forces more saves and can instadeath things like TWC.

The medusa is very sexy- especially in groups. I just wish the bastion breach shells allowed you to retain the normal firing option and the range were a little better

Colossus is lolwut? funny. Until it hits terminators :-(

I like the artillery as it is a good complement to other strengths like melta vets, vendettas, etc.

With longe range, indirect fire, and low(ish) cost, IG arti is great...for now....

Once the new Dark Eldar ship, however, arti is going to be a poor choice when facing them, since the DE reavers will be guarenteed a 2nd turn assault, and the rest of the army is right behind them.

I think that in local areas when DE gets played heavily, you will see more LR Demolisher varients (you won't need the range, and rear armor 11 will help greatly), and even more Hydras.

Personally, I would wait a month or so, and see the impact that DE make on your local scene, before Iwould drop cash on several tanks. The meta usually changes considerably with "new codex syndrome", so what is great now, might not be so great after a new Dex drops. With DE being the fastest dex to ever come out, mobility might serve you better than arti...best to wait and see at this point in time.

It really depends on how everyone reacts to all this mobility....if everyone tries to get faster to avoid/match the DE, then arti will become less effective against everyone. If not, then arti will remain queen of the battlefield and almost an auto-include in IG lists.

Blacksails wrote:Is there any viability to a list with chimera vets and artillery?

Yes, it's called a "leafblower"

Flavius Infernus wrote:As already stated--here and in every thread about IG artillery--minimum range only applies to indirect shots. There is no minimum range for direct ordinance shots from IG artillery.

Indirect shots:
-minimum range applies
-LoS not required
-Pinning at -1 Ld
-Vehicle cannot have moved in the movement phase
-Scatters full distance *if the gun doesn't have LoS*
-Shot counts as coming from the center of the blast, so ignores intervening terrain
-Counts as hitting side armor of target vehicles

Direct shots:
-No minimum range
-Los required
-Vehicle can have moved at combat speed
-Scatters distance rolled minus BS
-no pinning
-Shot counts as coming from the direction of the gun, regardless where it scatters.
-Counts as hitting target vehicle facing that is toward the gun

Every IG artillery piece except the colossus can fire in direct shot mode.

As he stated(darkknightzach), we were talking about Griffons. Griffons have no "Direct Fire" ability. therefore, suffer from min. range.

edit
pg.# 53 of the IG codex.

Very true, luckily the min range on the griffons are relatively small. Usually my Griffs are of course in the back or in a corner, so for the enemy to be at 12 inches often means they are a bit out of position, deepstriked, or are very close to a lot of las guns. By that time two heavy flamers on 2 griffs are almost as good ( more accurate too) than the indirect, and coupled with near by las guns should be able to still inflict heave damage on the squad near by. Or in the case of some one deep striking to out of place Griffons, i still got a turn or 2 to shoot them and then some one definitely spent more than 150 points to go after them.

Griffons are rather expendable and usually arnt that great of a threat compared to 2 leman russ. I find they are probably the most survivable of the tanks in IG (well not armor wise but you get it)

(ps and yes i am probably biased to them, simply think they are great for the price.

darkknightzach wrote:Very true, luckily the min range on the griffons are relatively small. Usually my Griffs are of course in the back or in a corner, so for the enemy to be at 12 inches often means they are a bit out of position, deepstriked, or are very close to a lot of las guns. By that time two heavy flamers on 2 griffs are almost as good ( more accurate too) than the indirect, and coupled with near by las guns should be able to still inflict heave damage on the squad near by. Or in the case of some one deep striking to out of place Griffons, i still got a turn or 2 to shoot them and then some one definitely spent more than 150 points to go after them.

Griffons are rather expendable and usually arnt that great of a threat compared to 2 leman russ. I find they are probably the most survivable of the tanks in IG (well not armor wise but you get it)

(ps and yes i am probably biased to them, simply think they are great for the price.

If i wasn't addicted to Hydra-crack(same price), i'd try them. i face enough Eldar to need the Hydras, though.