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Question about this.

Since you never actually pick a target.
Can you fire towards a combat and potentially hit models in combat with the template?

I can't find any restrictions for weapons that don't actually target units.

Shooting is bound by the rules in the BRB, which is you cannot target where you would hit combat essentially. The only exception is the Skaven army book under the Skaven Slaves entry where you can fire intentionally into combat involving them.

In the skaven AB ther are some conditions that can target close combats with shooting, however the warp fire thrower isnt one of them unless you make an oops , it does actually say that you have to fire it at a valid target, however if you over shoot said target and it hits a close combat then fair game.

You know this is actually a good point since the BRB says a template can't be aimed over a unit in combat but when you aim the WFT it's template is directly in front of it then scatters into range, so technically you never aim it at combat it just winds up there...

Never mind from rereading the ranged combat rules (specifically those for flame throwers) you have to nominate a target within los so you can't target at the unit in combat, unless it's scavenslaves, of course if theres a unit behind or in front of the unit you wan't to hit in combat you could nominate an attack against them and then just hope to roll so that it flys into the combat.

And as a question of my own those wounds are randomized as per shooting right? so I could fire at my slaves in combat, land the template just over slaves then roll to give theorhetically half the wounds to my opponent.

No. The template covers what it covers. Check the FAQ.

Nope check the brb and faq. The exception, and what you are thinking of, is if you have lets say a mortar and you place it over a unit that is unengaged, but next to an engaged unit, and it then scatters off the unengaged unit on to the engaged unit then that is ok. The big difference is that a WFT shoots just like a cannon the template does not use a scatter die thats just the way the straight line ends. Hope this helped.

Vulcan wrote:No. The template covers what it covers. Check the FAQ.

Boooooo.

Sol wrote:Nope check the brb and faq. The exception, and what you are thinking of, is if you have lets say a mortar and you place it over a unit that is unengaged, but next to an engaged unit, and it then scatters off the unengaged unit on to the engaged unit then that is ok. The big difference is that a WFT shoots just like a cannon the template does not use a scatter die thats just the way the straight line ends. Hope this helped.

That's what I was saying, declare your target as an unengaged unit in line with your real target then roll for distance and hope that the one you hit is your actual target.

And the warpfire thrower does not fire like a cannon if fires like a flamethrower "Set the flame template with the small end against the nozzel of the warpfire thrower with the large end towards a target in range." Ergo you have to aim the flame attack at a target and the basic rules for shooting specify that a target unit may not be in combat.

Yea you can not do that. It does fire like a cannon in the way that you draw a straight line in your intended direction, it just ends with the template. Where as a mortar scatters in a random direction so you can not draw the line through combat intentionally so it can hit friend or foes in combat by accident. If you target the ground or another unengaged unit and it hits into combat then it is not a legal shot and you lose the shot, this also applies for Pha's protection where if you try doing this to a unit protected by that spell, and hit them you have to roll a 4+ or the shot is lost. Rule book and faq are clear about these things.

ok. were skirting the issue here.
a clear answer is: if you target a unit and the WFT overshoots the unit you are aiming at and hits a unit behind it, its a legal use of the WFT because your intended target was not illigal, the fact that the WTF over shot and hit another target isnt an issue and is perfectly legal.
Sustaining proof: Rule book page 114 second colum top paragraph.
Skaven AB: exact same listing (i think the cut and pasted)
page 60.

there is no mention that if is diviates off target the shot is lost (by diviation i mean that it over shoots and hits something else. so long as you aim at a legal target anything else hit is fair game.

now on page 112 of the rulebook concering cannons it states that you are not allowed to make a shot that has a chance of hitting a friendly unit or into a close combat. this of course WILL effect a WARP CANNON but has NO BERING on a WFT, as rules for each are seperate.

Page 39 you can not purposefully aim hoping to over shot into combat. So no you can not do it just like you can not aim a cannon at a guy 1 inch away from a combat because you are purposefully aiming in a way that can hit combat.

Sol wrote:Page 39 you can not purposefully aim hoping to over shot into combat. So no you can not do it just like you can not aim a cannon at a guy 1 inch away from a combat because you are purposefully aiming in a way that can hit combat.

Awe you didnt read the whole thing or even para-quoted it correctly silly.
first paragraph says..... your not permitted to shoot at enimies in close combat. fine, the example isnt about that. its about over shooting with a war machine (war machines not being mentioned in the first paragraph BTW), your not aiming at the close combat but a valid target with a close combat behind it.
next: second paragraph first part states, that some war machines can accidently hit friends whilst aiming at the enimy with templates. 'the key word here is accidently) example: say a diviation on a stone thrower.
next part. you can not pourpousely aim a template so that some of your models will be hit. oooo kay... clear.

So first paragraph talks about shooting at enimies inclose combat. ok you cant fine. but a template that over shoots isnt doing that. it was never targeted or shot at that unit. it was shot at a valid target and over shoot. perfectly valid.
second paragraph talks only about friendly models not enemy models.... so in a combat where a diviation or overshot happens and no friendly models are hit , its perfectly legal.

ok so ops question is: Since you never actually pick a target.
Can you fire towards a combat and potentially hit models in combat with the template?

we corrected him on that. you do need to pick a target. that said.. can you over shoot into a combat? yes so long as you dont aim in such a way that your own models will be hit....

I agree with ragekitty Hawkins here.

Nowhere under the flame thrower or warpfire thrower rules does it say that you have to draw a line across your targeting or that if any allies or combats are in the way you can't shoot.

Pertaining to the comment about the placement of a template though it does say you can't place a template over an ally so if your warfire thrower were directly behind an ally you couldn't place it (with the possible exception of skaven slaves) because it says to Place the flame template then move it forwards, which could possibly represent real world conditions of allies getting in the way as you start to arc the flammable material, but that's rather beside the point.

so the basics we've layed out as I understand them are.

1. set down the template so that it is pointing from the flame nozzle pointed towards an enemy out of combat, declaring that as your tagret, making sure that it does not overlap your own unit.

2. Roll the scatter dice.

3.Pray to roll so that it hits the in combat enemy you're actually aiming at.

4.Move the template forward as instructed and it hits any models that are under it.

If you aim something that you know will go in a straight line, and has a max range that can carry it into combat then you are intentionally shooting at a combat, so no you can't. It is not in anyway accidental. Also it clearly states that while a combat looks like 2 separate units it isn't, but rather it is a swirling melee. That is why you can not shoot into combat because you will be hitting your own troops. Honestly I don't know why the op or anyone else would want to try and pull such a douchebaggery on a fellow gamer, unless they just really don't like the person, but you still shouldn't try to cheat the system. As GW says it isn't in the spirit of the game!

Unless you're skaven! In which case shooting at your slaves is a nice tactically sound move

But I dont see a problem, if I think what you're saying is true that means I can effectively protect my troops as long as I create a "bubble" around my unit of choice as long as I have combat around it?

kenshin620 wrote:Unless you're skaven! In which case shooting at your slaves is a nice tactically sound move

But I dont see a problem, if I think what you're saying is true that means I can effectively protect my troops as long as I create a "bubble" around my unit of choice as long as I have combat around it?

I agree, and besides skaven are all about douchebagery.

Read about this very tactic in a recent batrep somewhere, and had never realized the implications of warpfire thrower + slaves. I haven't checked the rule, but apparently you randomize all hits on the collective combat, so templates don't just hit who they actually hit (ala 7th edition skaven rules). So this guy was getting his slaves in combat with regen-ing things - let's say 1 hydra - and then squirting that flame template onto the slaves / hydra. Since the slaves have wee 20mm bases, TONS of them get hit, but then each hit is randomized, resulting in an enormous number of S5 flaming D3 wounding hits possibly hitting the hydra, vs the 1 that the template normally would do.

Maybe you guys caught that, and maybe the rule actually doesn't say that, but I was impressed by the d-bag factor

- Salvage

Ah that's the reason why not to randomize shots into combat was in the FAQ, though I still think you should be able to, they should change it so you still randomize shots when firing into combat but you're limited to only the maximum number of hits a unit could take then to reroll the others or just discount them as missing.

see it all comes down to intentional and unintentional. a. the rules support an unintentional hit on enimies even in combat. as stated perviously, the WFT states that anything under the template is hit if your only placing it over enimy models fair game, it does not say you have to randomize it even if it hits a close combat unintentionaly. the key here is what your trying to accomplish, if your dead set on hitting your intended legal target, then any colateral on other enemy units is ok. the rules support this. i dont see one rule that disputes this in regards to the WFT.

*runs off to check other rules.... BRB*


Automatically Appended Next Post:
yup nothing on randomizing hits from the WFT. can anyone find a rule that says you must randomize hits from a WFT hitting an enemy unit? or even a combat?

Sol wrote:That is why you can not shoot into combat because you will be hitting your own troops. Honestly I don't know why the op or anyone else would want to try and pull such a douchebaggery on a fellow gamer, unless they just really don't like the person, but you still shouldn't try to cheat the system. As GW says it isn't in the spirit of the game!

The Skaven AB makes it pretty clear that shooting your own troops is exactly in the spirit of playing the game with a Skaven army.

Target the WFT at an unengaed enemy unit, or a unit in combat with slaves. Roll the artillery dice. Move the template. Accept result.

Boss Salvage wrote:Read about this very tactic in a recent batrep somewhere, and had never realized the implications of warpfire thrower + slaves. I haven't checked the rule, but apparently you randomize all hits on the collective combat, so templates don't just hit who they actually hit (ala 7th edition skaven rules). So this guy was getting his slaves in combat with regen-ing things - let's say 1 hydra - and then squirting that flame template onto the slaves / hydra. Since the slaves have wee 20mm bases, TONS of them get hit, but then each hit is randomized, resulting in an enormous number of S5 flaming D3 wounding hits possibly hitting the hydra, vs the 1 that the template normally would do.

Maybe you guys caught that, and maybe the rule actually doesn't say that, but I was impressed by the d-bag factor

- Salvage

Not anymore, Boss. The Skaven FAQ removes the Randomization of hits from the Slave's rule. Now, you hit what you hit(yes, even with direct fire weapons!):

Page 36 – Expendable
Delete the last two sentences.

These two state:

"As combatants are constantly in motion, all successful hits must be randomized between the fighting units(1-3 friend, 4-6 foe). If there are multiple units, further randomise to determine exactly which one is struck."

Tying up a unit with Slaves and laying into it with Jezzails means no Slaves hit anymore. No more multiple hits on Hydras is the side effect, though.