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 Guildsman wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
Leverage those thousands and turn them into new, shiny miniatures from the people who still want 40k. I spent all yesterday building Infinity and I'm still not done... got my TAG and a traktor mul left.

And then there's the entire Circle Army...

Precisely what I did.

I got well and thoroughly out of GW games just a month or two ago. I first got into the hobby by stumbling into an FLGS and being entranced by everything inside. Being fairly young, I viewed them from the context of video games: it's physically playing a turn-based strategy game, with the degree of customization I've always wanted! I invested into GW, of course, and also played a fair bit of historicals through a faculty-led club at my high school. My involvement has waxed and waned over the past few years, but it's always been an interest.

Fast-forward to the present, and I was looking to get back into playing in a big way, now that I'm out of college. However, the GW "community," if you can call it that, really put me off. Awful behavior from management, declining game quality, and ever-increasing prices killed any interest that I might have had in jumping back into WHFB or 40K. There were two moments, however, that really decided things for me: the rebranding of the Imperial Guard, which clearly illustrated that GW is willing to tear up their own IP for any perceived gain, and the moment that I realized that finishing any of the partial armies in my collection would be prohibitively expensive, no matter what methods I used to find discounts. (To be fair, I did choose skaven, but still.)

Instead, I sold off most of my collection and reinvested in other games. I now have a foothold in both Malifaux and Infinity, and looking at recent GW releases, I don't regret getting out at all.

I also sold off my two armies. First I sold off my fairly recent Imperial Fist army, then my SOB army that I've been collecting since 2nd edition. Got a ton of Warmachine and Infinity stuff, including pre-ordering operation Ice Storm.

 Guildsman wrote:
the moment that I realized that finishing any of the partial armies in my collection would be prohibitively expensive, no matter what methods I used to find discounts. (To be fair, I did choose skaven, but still.)

Instead, I sold off most of my collection and reinvested in other games. I now have a foothold in both Malifaux and Infinity, and looking at recent GW releases, I don't regret getting out at all.

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. My own armies lay around for a while after I abandoned GW, but alternate battle rules got me buying again, particularly for skaven. (Although Seb Perbett's sculpting also had something to do with it, and discounts, particularly IoB resellers on ebay, helped too.)

I honestly think that the number of minis required by other mass battle rules makes a small but significant difference too, particularly with unit/element basing. E.g. Kings of War kicked off my rebuying, and I've seen some players embrace the fixed unit footprint beyond cramming a bunch of 20mm bases into it; arranging their GW minis into little dioramas rather than simply shoulder to shoulder. Or look at Impetus on the historical side: 120x80mm bases, IIRC, but the best examples I've seen have a handful of minis in that area, rather than twenty-four all painstakingly ranked up. (And we all know how well GW minis rank up, amirite?) It's the unit filler principle applied to the whole unit. Like I say, it's debateable just how much you can save by spreading your minis thin before it looks like you're extracting the urine, but still...

Then there's Mayhem, which I moved to. The suggested standard element base for 28mm is 60x60mm. Maybe a bit too abstracted in figure scale for some, but it means an element is 9 human-sized minis, give or take. The suggested army size for beginners is 7-9 elements. About 63-81 minis, assuming no larger infantry, cavalry, monsters etc. How many Warhammer players could easily achieve that with only their unfinished WH collections?

The diorama base is definitely better than the ranked up movement tray approach.



5 horses and a standard bearer. And a lot more interesting than had the person just crammed on 10 cavalry.

---

If I got back into fantasy, I'd do diorama bases with a counter on the back for "wounds". Then have a little slot on the back for lengthening it for bigger units.

All those extra models are just filler.

 Vermis wrote:

 Guildsman wrote:
the moment that I realized that finishing any of the partial armies in my collection would be prohibitively expensive, no matter what methods I used to find discounts. (To be fair, I did choose skaven, but still.)

Instead, I sold off most of my collection and reinvested in other games. I now have a foothold in both Malifaux and Infinity, and looking at recent GW releases, I don't regret getting out at all.

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. My own armies lay around for a while after I abandoned GW, but alternate battle rules got me buying again, particularly for skaven. (Although Seb Perbett's sculpting also had something to do with it, and discounts, particularly IoB resellers on ebay, helped too.)

I honestly think that the number of minis required by other mass battle rules makes a small but significant difference too, particularly with unit/element basing. E.g. Kings of War kicked off my rebuying, and I've seen some players embrace the fixed unit footprint beyond cramming a bunch of 20mm bases into it; arranging their GW minis into little dioramas rather than simply shoulder to shoulder. Or look at Impetus on the historical side: 120x80mm bases, IIRC, but the best examples I've seen have a handful of minis in that area, rather than twenty-four all painstakingly ranked up. (And we all know how well GW minis rank up, amirite?) It's the unit filler principle applied to the whole unit. Like I say, it's debateable just how much you can save by spreading your minis thin before it looks like you're extracting the urine, but still...

Then there's Mayhem, which I moved to. The suggested standard element base for 28mm is 60x60mm. Maybe a bit too abstracted in figure scale for some, but it means an element is 9 human-sized minis, give or take. The suggested army size for beginners is 7-9 elements. About 63-81 minis, assuming no larger infantry, cavalry, monsters etc. How many Warhammer players could easily achieve that with only their unfinished WH collections?

A great point. If I do decide to get into fantasy mass battle, it'll be through KoW. Mayhem would be interesting, too. WHFB is just unfeasible these days.

i got tired of them raising prices and the Codex creep.
Went to 15mm ww2,but slowly working on Bolt Action.

 TheKbob wrote:
If I got back into fantasy, I'd do diorama bases with a counter on the back for "wounds". Then have a little slot on the back for lengthening it for bigger units.

All those extra models are just filler.

*Blink, blink*

You know... there might be a market for a unit base with a built in wounds/nerve counter on the back....

Just sayin'....

The Auld Grump

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
If I got back into fantasy, I'd do diorama bases with a counter on the back for "wounds". Then have a little slot on the back for lengthening it for bigger units.

All those extra models are just filler.

*Blink, blink*

You know... there might be a market for a unit base with a built in wounds/nerve counter on the back....

Just sayin'....

The Auld Grump

I'd say that some of the very well to do laser cut MDF folks could whip something up in MDF or acrylic to serve this purpose well. That's all those models are... ablative wounds, so who cares?

 TheKbob wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
If I got back into fantasy, I'd do diorama bases with a counter on the back for "wounds". Then have a little slot on the back for lengthening it for bigger units.

All those extra models are just filler.

*Blink, blink*

You know... there might be a market for a unit base with a built in wounds/nerve counter on the back....

Just sayin'....

The Auld Grump

I'd say that some of the very well to do laser cut MDF folks could whip something up in MDF or acrylic to serve this purpose well. That's all those models are... ablative wounds, so who cares?

At least Kings of War is honest and open about that.

That seems to be the big, slow, change going on with my group - people are ssslllooowwwlllyyy switching from standard Warhammer unit basing to small dioramas.

I was the first in my group to start doing it - but I began doing it because of some models on Beats of War - the Violet Death undead army.

I think that there was an audible *CLICK!* when I looked at the units.... they are fantastic. A favorite is the animated Mortis Engine - powered by a music box, complete with music. I don't even like the Mortis Engine... but doing it up as a merry-go-round? Priceless... and suddenly I wanted one.

I will admit.. my undead army isn't quite as original as having a six year old vampire that is looking for friends, but it makes me happy. Zombies and ghouls swarming, clambering, and leaping out of a graveyard. (So, no scary-go-round for me. )

My girlfriend is doing her dwarfs in an... interesting fashion - the units are posing, and the 'general' is painting the portrait. (She is taking classes at art school... and thought that it would be funny.)

I really like the idea of having a counter integral to the base.

The Auld Grump

Have multiple warhammer armies, including two pretty much full ones in boxes and more unpainted goblins than I care to have nightmares about. The game for its flaws is fun, with the right people.

40k.. have 5th edition rules for various reasons never got 6th, was keen on 7th but the rate books are being put out at I can't justify keeping up so my IG have dust on and the new ork army for 7th was stillborn with a few units only. A half built knight is staring at me, it will be finished, one day.

Have a huge collection of flames of war and would be happy with lots more, the thing that holds me back is lack of time, the models are not to GW quality, but are smaller so matters less, but the game is a lot better.

Starting WW2 navy games with micronaughts.

Bolt Action looked good, but has too much "40k" in it for me (no split fire, skirmish game with units, game being pushed ever larger and creaking)

Black Power plus Pike & Shotte are good and love the beautiful models (and the prices, 60 models for 20 squid?)

Realised a lont time ago I spend far more time modelling than playing, wish I had more time to play.

Too many games, not enough time.

Still enjoy GW games, and the two games of all time that I have enjoyed the most? Space Marine (Epic V1) and Star Fleet Battles, enough detail in both to be interesting and not just generic counters, but both actually playable as games.

What did it for me was 7th edition and the new ork codex. When I realized that I would need 5 big mek gun at $46. Then the naught walker for $105 and the vast number of trucks for $37.25 I would also need. Plus tank busters ect ect.... The price is way to much for some plastic junk.
My buddies of our gaming group have started playing warmachine and for haft the price I got a 35 pt army. We have all quit GW about 15 of us and have not looked back.

I can't actually say I've left yet, but I intend to.

Why? A combination of the prices, business practices/choices and the constant and needless bad changes to already badly designed rules. Also design wise, the newer kits continue to get worse, I still laugh at Logan's Sleigh.

My problem is supplementing the game, I've currently not played since the very beginning of 7th, but my local group is still 100% commited to the game, the only game they play outside of this is Dropzone Commander, which looks fun but is not my style of game.

I've been delving more into RPG groups and dungeon crawlers lately, mostly D&D, but some 40k/Fantasy ones (E.g. Deathwatch, Dark Heresy.) as I still love the lore and setting, and I'm still a loyal black library fan.

As for miniature based games, I'm attempting to find some people interested in Warmahordes and Infinity as these seem more reasonable price wise and much better in terms of aesthetic design and rules design.

 Rysaer wrote:
but my local group is still 100% commited to the game

Do they like the rules, or are they like you: more interested in the minis and background?

Very much the rules, most of them know very little about the background.

I'm a bit of a black sheep these days as I had the gall to be upset about 7th edition, I explained the changes I liked/disliked, but because I disliked some changes I am apparently satan reborn.

 Rysaer wrote:
Very much the rules, most of them know very little about the background.

I'm a bit of a black sheep these days as I had the gall to be upset about 7th edition, I explained the changes I liked/disliked, but because I disliked some changes I am apparently satan reborn.

GWombies. I've seen that mentality elsewhere. Only know GW stuff, don't want to hear anything other than praise, anyone who dislikes it is brainwashed by those evil internet forums or is a Privateer Press fanboy.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Rysaer wrote:
Very much the rules, most of them know very little about the background.

I'm a bit of a black sheep these days as I had the gall to be upset about 7th edition, I explained the changes I liked/disliked, but because I disliked some changes I am apparently satan reborn.

GWombies. I've seen that mentality elsewhere. Only know GW stuff, don't want to hear anything other than praise, anyone who dislikes it is brainwashed by those evil internet forums or is a Privateer Press fanboy.

Ugh. Used to know a GWombie...

Games against him were stressful as feth.

You guys are just a bunch of haters.

 slowthar wrote:
You guys are just a bunch of haters.

*gasp* White Knight alert!!!

From the west it's the white knight!!

Rysaer: Pity. It might've been easier to point out alternate rules if space marines did it for them; but people older than mid-teens who love 40K rules exclusively both frighten and confuse me. DZC is a glint of hope, although you don't like it yourself. Does that mean they'd be willing to at least try some other rules, a couple of times?

Failing that, are there any other gaming groups or clubs nearby...?

I admit the rules can be shaky at times but I don't think they're as bad as people on the net make them out to be. I just can't get into the aesthetics/fluff of any of the other games. The recent SW releases other than Logan's sled and murderfang's face are actually pretty cool. I thought the flyer was ugly but it's killy so I bought one and now that I've built it, I kind of dig the flying box with a giant cannon. I wouldn't mind trying other games if I saw one that really grabbed me but no matter how much I look at models from other systems, they just don't do it for me.

The rules certainly are not unplayable as they stand.

They could be a lot better with a bit of effort, and could be vastly improved (more interesting, exciting and fun to play) with a moderate effort.

 slowthar wrote:
You guys are just a bunch of haters.

Close, but not quite....


The Auld Grump

 slowthar wrote:
You guys are just a bunch of haters.

I just shake it off!

 slowthar wrote:
You guys are just a bunch of haters.

Hater or lover? 'cos I LOVE other games.

 Robisagg wrote:

 Mastiff wrote:
like the Taurox and new Space Wolf flying transport, where they look like they fed all the design elements into a computer and it spat out uninspired facsimiles that met the criteria, but with absolutely no soul.

The funny thing is that's exactly how an STC works lol.

Touché

At least when they had Jes Goodwin's ghost in their STC machine they were functional and snazzy-looking.

 Guildsman wrote:

A great point. If I do decide to get into fantasy mass battle, it'll be through KoW. Mayhem would be interesting, too. WHFB is just unfeasible these days.

KoW is a great system. Very flexible, very cheap and easy to learn. As others have said, it's essentially an element based system, so the number of guys on the base is irrelevant as long as the base or movement trays are the right size. This has allowed our club to field all kinds of great models and models on alternate basings that wouldn't otherwise have been seen as often on the battlefields.

A couple examples from our last game.
-4 Tharks (6 armed giants from Burroughs Barsoomian Mars books) standing in for 6 Ogres
-3 Thark great beasts standing in for 6 Ogre chariots
-25mm based Japanese from Clan War for Kingdoms of Man army

http://chicagoskirmish.blogspot.com/2014/08/quake-mourn-campaign-session-4-kings-of.html

To be honest I'm not sure that KoW would hold my interest as well if it were my only game. I like it more than GW rules, but it doesn't have the crunch and background of GW games. However the low cost of rules and my sourcing of cheap models means that it doesn't have to be. At present, it's one of at least 3 minaitures games that I play fairly regularly and a half dozen or so that I play over the course of the year. Jumping off the GW train means that I now have enough gaming dollars to ride many different games.

Yeah, GW is using a lot of dirty strategies, but warhammer forty k is what my passion is, so I stick with it.

lliu wrote:
Yeah, GW is using a lot of dirty strategies, but warhammer forty k is what my passion is, so I stick with it.

The problem is who they are directing their dirty strategies at. Mostly they're aiming them at us, the consumer with pricing, or people not actually doing anything wrong with legal battles.

If they were 'fighting dirty' against their competitors in the retail space to gain more of a following, I'd understand this stance. But saying 'Games Wokshop is intent on giving me as little value as they possibly can for the huge sums of money they charge me, but I'm okay with it because I like the background' makes zero sense to me. They're actively giving you as little as they possibly can while charging you obscene sums of money for the privelege.

 -Loki- wrote:

lliu wrote:
Yeah, GW is using a lot of dirty strategies, but warhammer forty k is what my passion is, so I stick with it.

The problem is who they are directing their dirty strategies at. Mostly they're aiming them at us, the consumer with pricing, or people not actually doing anything wrong with legal battles.

If they were 'fighting dirty' against their competitors in the retail space to gain more of a following, I'd understand this stance. But saying 'Games Wokshop is intent on giving me as little value as they possibly can for the huge sums of money they charge me, but I'm okay with it because I like the background' makes zero sense to me. They're actively giving you as little as they possibly can while charging you obscene sums of money for the privelege.

"I don't mind getting totally hosed and fleeced!"