How to equip ogre bulls?

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**teddet**

I'm in the process of constructing an ogre army. Since I'm starting from scratch, I can equip my ogre bulls any way I want -- is there a consensus on what makes the most sense? Extra hand weapon? Ironfist? Nothing?

**Monster Rain**

I'm a pretty big fan of the Ironfist, to be honest.

Due in no small part to the fact that they look awesome.

**Oscarius**

I like naked, cheapest + Basic armour piercing is nice.

**HawaiiMatt**

+1 for naked.

You won't get the extra attack from the 2nd rank, and you pay too many points to use the fist for defense (more ogres is better).

Light armor, extra weapon and fist are all neat upgrades, but they are all overpriced.

-Matt

**The Frying Dutchman**

I've been lurking around and from what I can see a lot of people like naked. It's not that the other options aren't good, it's just that they're overpriced for what you get. To accumulate any significant armor save, you need ironfists and light armor, which bumps you to 43 points a model. The extra attack isn't needed since only the models in the front rank can actually use it. And if you decide to use your ogre club (since you never actually give it up) then why did you buy all that kit in the first place!

My vote is for naked bulls....they seem the most cost effective.

**WhiteSkyBanshee**

I'd go for ironfists, but no armour, as it is pretty much useless, as 3 wounds is enough to keep them alive anyway.

**agnosto**

+1 for ironfists only. I feel that light armor is a waste and extra hand weapon is only good vs. hordes with little or no armor.

**Boss Salvage**

Mine have ironfists because they look awesome and because the 6+ parry benefits the entire unit. But if I were to do it all over, I'd go naked to take advantage of cheapness and free AP for the whole unit

- Salvage

**saitani**

Ironfists just for the 6+ ward when you know that you cant lose that one guy in the rear and lose the rank bonus.
Field them in unit of 6 with a bellower and a standard.

**Skelly**

Naked is hands-down the most efficient, especially when you're running lots of bulls.

**HawaiiMatt**

saitani wrote:
Ironfists just for the 6+ ward when you know that you cant lose that one guy in the rear and lose the rank bonus.
Field them in unit of 6 with a bellower and a standard.

Or, go naked, and spend 5 more points on a 7th bull. Now you get an additional +1 strength on one of the impact hits, all your attacks armor pierce, and should you get flanked, you still have 3 bulls in the mix.

I really like the idea of iron fists, but they weren't cost effective in 7th edition, and they aren't any better in 8th.

-Matt

**Grey Templar**

i vote for IFs.

3 different options for collecting dinner.

3 attacks at Str4 AP

4 Attacks at Str4

3 Attacks with a 6+ ward

i would probably try to run bulls naked IF the ogre bull box came with the option to actually run them naked

i sometimes go with LA if i have some extra points. a 6+ armor save is better then no save at all. Ogre bulls now won't ever get more then one save if you don't take LA, they can get a 6+ ward in CC, but they will often have 4+ regen too.

6+ armor and 4+ regen is a decent chance of saving your bulls.

**QuietOrkmi**

Is there anything to stop someone to model the ironfist but to tell his opponent that his cool looking ogres have no LA and no Ironfist?

**HoverBoy**

I wouldn't have a problem with it.
Then again some people have a tendency to wear their rectum as a hat.

**Da Boss**

I wouldn't mind as long as you pointed it out, and I can't see anyone objecting as long as you do that.

**Nagashek**

many many units run around with heavy armor only, or LA/Sh. Ogre clubs remove both. Hence why my dwarf army is eyeballing some slayers. Why pay for heavy armor that will never get used?

**The Grundel**

Ironfist's are not that good.

You DO NOT gain +1 attack to the models in the second row. 3 support attacks is the cap, the +1 in a 3x3 provides 3 additional attacks for 45 points (9 ironfists)

**agnosto**

The Grundel wrote:Ironfist's are not that good.

You DO NOT gain +1 attack to the models in the second row. 3 support attacks is the cap, the +1 in a 3x3 provides 3 additional attacks for 45 points (9 ironfists)

For me it's the flexibility of either getting an extra attack or using it as a shield in CC and getting the 6+ ward save. Too bad it doesn't work against shooting...

**QuietOrkmi**

The only problem is that 6+ ward save is that you cannot combine it with a 4+ regeneration...

**agnosto**

QuietOrkmi wrote:The only problem is that 6+ ward save is that you cannot combine it with a 4+ regeneration...

That's fine considering I haven't had a game yet were I had regen in my opponent's turn because if it get's cast, trollguts always gets dispelled. My usual oppenent is an Empire player and he gets extra dice from those cheesey warrior priests, etc. so it's never an issue to dispell any gut magic that made it through my turn.

So yeah, the 6+ has helped.

**Grey Templar**

+1 to above post.

when you don't have Trollguts(which will be at least 1/2 the game against a smart opponent) that 6+ in CC can be nice.

as to the 2+ ranks not using the IF: this is true, but only IF your opponents is fighting to your front. Ogre blocks are really big and easy to flank. you will eventually be fighting a few flank battles and then the IF can really shine.

**QuietOrkmi**

I was thinking about Naked bulls v. option Bulls and came to this conclusion...

What do we do when we hit that bulk of S3 troops? If we cannot keep trollguts up, go last, won't we lose an ogre and a half before swinging?

6 Bulls with IronFist cost the same as 7 bulls with just clubs...

But when it comes to survivability, you can just raise their toughness by 1 instead of giving the bulls regeneration, the result will be the same. S3 against T4 results in 33% wounds while S3 against T5 results in about 16% wounds...

Throw in 5+ armor and 6+ ward and I think we can take on a large amount of S3 attacks...

**Grey Templar**

i have found the LA+shield save to be useful(and combinable with Trollguts), but i only do that if i need to fill in points.

i usually have at least 1 Toothcracker up in my turn and often a Trollguts. i try to do as much damage in my turn when i have my buffs and then take any damage in the enemy turn on the cheek.

if my opponent rolls less then 7 for Winds of Magic he often struggles with the choice of Magic or dispelling my Buffs.

i have had many times where my opponent risks 1 dice to dispell a buff and loses concentration. if he doesn't have many dice to play with he often takes the risk.

i also try to get some buffs up on the first turn. opponents wont usually bother dispelling buffs that won't be effecting them rightaway(shooty armies are an exception) and that can let you get some extra buffs up to ensure against him dispelling any.

**HawaiiMatt**

QuietOrkmi wrote:I was thinking about Naked bulls v. option Bulls and came to this conclusion...

What do we do when we hit that bulk of S3 troops? If we cannot keep trollguts up, go last, won't we lose an ogre and a half before swinging?

6 Bulls with IronFist cost the same as 7 bulls with just clubs...

But when it comes to survivability, you can just raise their toughness by 1 instead of giving the bulls regeneration, the result will be the same. S3 against T4 results in 33% wounds while S3 against T5 results in about 16% wounds...

Throw in 5+ armor and 6+ ward and I think we can take on a large amount of S3 attacks...

To get the 5+ armor, you're looking at 5 bulls vs 4 bulls, since you need to buy both light armor and iron fists.
The other problem with Iron Fists is that you're improving your opponents saves as well; by giving up armor piercing.
I don't know what the metagame is in your area, but most T3 models I see have a 5+ save; so taking the fist reduces kills.

Magic is the better solution, +1T, Regen, or +1 Strength are all better than any gear you can buy.

That might be a better comparison as well. If you're looking at army wide, light armor + fist, for those same points, you could instead pick up another butcher.

-Matt

**Grey Templar**

Bullgorger is better then Armor Piercing and you can always choose NOT to use your IFs at all and just use the Clubs.

this is legal as both Clubs and IFs are special weapons and you may choose freely between them.