Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Alrighty, having squared away all my mech-BA related questions (and getting several nasty lists lined up), I started to think about other list types for BA. You see, playing the eminently 1 dimensional Black Templars and Chaos Marines, who have maybe 4 different overall strategies between them, has made me really appreciate the relative diversity that the BA (and SW, and C:SM) codices have to offer. So, that said, I was curious about how to effectively build a DoA list for Blood Angels that won't simply get chewed up the turn everything arrives.

Here's a sample I wrote up:

HQ:
Reclusiarch, Jump Pack

Elites:
Sang. Priest, Jump Pack
Sang. Priest, Jump Pack

Troops:
10x Assault Marines, 2x Meltaguns, Sgt Power Fist
10x Assault Marines, 2x Meltaguns, Sgt Power Fist
10x Assault Marines, 2x Flamers, Sgt Power Weapon

Fast Attack:
7x Vanguard, Jump Packs, 2x Power Weapon
7x Vanguard, Jump Packs, 2x Power Weapon

Anyhow, the idea was to (usually) combat squad everything except possibly the flamer squad, drop in, melta vehicles, and use the Vanguard to take out any heavy weapons or finish off a monstrous creature or two on the turn everything arrives. After that, I'd just keep everything together and overwhelm squads, continuing to use the VV to eliminate larger squads. I wasn't quite sure how to deal with enemy elite infantry though, and I feel like a typical DE list could tear this to pieces.

Those are my basic ideas and concerns for the list and its variants, and I'm wondering what Dakka thinks.

Also, if there's a better way to run Jump-Infantry heavy BA lists that isn't DoA, please let me know. I don't really care for the "Descent of Angels" fluff, I'm more interested in running Jump Marines, since that's fairly unique to Blood Angels. (i.e. if I wanted to run Rhino/Razorback rush, I could just play Codex or Wolves).

Sounds silly, but with that many DS-ing units, I would take a unit of Scouts with a Teleport Homer. Give them Sniper Rifles and you have a unit for 100 points, and it can provide very accurate Deep Strikes, which when used in conjunction with Heroic Intervention, would allow you to pummel units straight away with the Vanguard, which also prevents a couple of units shooting your other DS-ing units.

Ive found vanguards lacking, whatever they can do, a regular assault squad can do too with essentially some smart DS positioning. Combat squadding has its uses, but theres more times than you would figure where plowing a full strength squad into the enemy is better (having a reclusiarch or chaplain being one good motivator)

In lieu of the vanguards, perhaps try a squad of honor guard with your weaponry of choice

I think that if you're going to pay a premium for heroic intervention on your assault squads.... you should invest in some more power weapons. otherwise I dont think they'll hit hard enough to justify their expense. they're already pretty expensive so one or two more power weapons per squad is really more about protecting the investment youve already made...

Sounds fun. An all deep strike army eliminates the problem of deployment. Just make sure you can get something in. Maybe instead of jump packs on a squad, a drop pod with a homer? Like a tac squad with some defensive weapons to defend the drop site. Other than that, sounds good.

I think they key is to have 3 battle plans.

Have a plan to reserve everything.
Have a plan go 1st and start on the table
Have a plan to go 2nd and start on table

The upside of a doa ba list is it can pull off all 3 which means it is unpredictible, has options, and can adjust its tactics.

Armies with only 1 of those 3 options are a 1 trick pony

I would suggest something to hold the home objective(s) such as scouts or tac squads. I also prefer Devastators to Vanguard as they offer some long range firepower that is very useful. They also make your opponents decision of when to pop smoke more of a decision. If everything is deepstriking, they will pop smoke on everything on turn 2 which can drastically reduce your ability to beta strike. In my experience, an army list like yours does very well against mech armies without a cc punch such as Tau and mech guard but will struggle against tyranids and demons. I find that devastators help to even it out.

Slick wrote:Ive found vanguards lacking, whatever they can do, a regular assault squad can do too with essentially some smart DS positioning. Combat squadding has its uses, but theres more times than you would figure where plowing a full strength squad into the enemy is better (having a reclusiarch or chaplain being one good motivator)

In lieu of the vanguards, perhaps try a squad of honor guard with your weaponry of choice

Ok, there is a big thing that Vanguards do that everything else in the game cannot do: charge the turn it drops. For an army that is going really cowboy style and playing 100% drop (read: unsupported) these guys are the bees knees. They can hit backfield units and make them go away, make combat screens to block enemy movement and create cover for your units, tie up scary CC units for a couple of combat phases until the rest of your stuff is free to charg, and put immediate in your face pressure on the other player. Without this kind of immediate pressure you're not doing much to disrupt the opponent on drop, so they get a good chance to react to you. Most armies are going to be able to dish out AP2 fire in decent enough quantities to really hurt you, and you never want to get charged by the enemy CC elite (like Thunderwolves) because you simply can't beat them without Furious Charge. Vanguards help you control what your opponent does on his next turn and allow you to easier dictate play. When you're able to do these things your opponent becomes more predictable and you gain an advantage.

I think the trap with Vanguards is that it is really easy to get carried away on toys for them. They quickly become more expensive than what they're actually good for (which isn't killing everything ever or being a huge hammer unit... which they can do but for a massive points investment, and IMO you can get a comparable hammer for cheaper elsewhere in the book so that option isn't the best most of the time) so you have to be careful to keep their points down. I run 3 units in my all drop list and they're definitely star performers. I usually run them in 1 of 4 configurations (still testing to find the one I like most and the points are different for easch loadout so it influences the makeup of the rest of the army, so its hard to tell even after 5 games with each):

5x Vanguards: 1x Powerfist (sarge)
5x Vanguards: 2x Powerfist (sarge, normal dude)
5x Vanguards: 1x Powerfist (sarge), 1x Storm Shield (normal dude)
5x Vanguards: 1x Powerfist (sarge), 2x Storm Shield (sarge, normal dude)

the ones with the Storm Shields make it easier to deal with things like Tervigons and Trygons (and MCs in general) as well as make them better for holding things like Thunderwolves in place for 2 combat phases until the rest of my army leaves its drop state and can charge.

I'm not saying they're required at all. There are times when I think a lot more bodies would be better, and in some lists they won't fit. They're tricky to use though and without DoA they'd be pretty terrible (but then the qhole DoA army concept would be terrible too haha). I just wouldn't write them off after a couple of bad games with them, they take some getting used to. I started with one unit in my list and it took 2-3 games to really figure them out. once I did though I found myself adding mroe and more and now I'm running 3 units of them.

one thing I would say is if you're sticking the Priests with jump squads give them the P fist instead of the sarg. same cost for the fist same 2 attacks on the profile, but WS5.

1) I would trade the reclusiarch for a librarian. He is a little cheaper, but a little worse in combat. However you can cast "unleash rage" on the enemy turn giving you prefered enemy when you are charged instead of only when you are charging.

2) Think about a honor guard squad with 4x plasma guns. You get a "free" sanguinary priest that can not be singled out in combat, and they can take out he MC's and other Scary combat unit on the turn that you drop. Again this could help you to deal more damage when you drop, increasing your alpha strike.

3) I would not recomend having only one unit on the board turn 1 wehther it is a drop pod or scouts. You are paying for DoA so use it, you do not need less scatter than that. Anything on the board will take a whole army worth of firepower, and would most likely just vanish before they are of any use.

4) You can always start on the board. Against any army with a limited amount of long range shooting and a lot of combat, (maybe orks or nids depending on the list) it might be a good idea. You are still a mobile force as everyone has JP's.

5) do not worry about having a unit dedicated to taking objectives. Just make sure you place any objectives you can right in your enemy's face, and then use 12+1d6" mves to get to them at the end of the game.

Awesome Christ wrote:one thing I would say is if you're sticking the Priests with jump squads give them the P fist instead of the sarg. same cost for the fist same 2 attacks on the profile, but WS5.

Congrats, now I can eliminate your Fist before it can do anything to my MC/Walker

Priests are a top priority to kill in CC and since they're an IC they tend to die fast with a determined opponent

If your taking VV don't take 2x groups of 5.

Take 1x group of 10. After you roll the reserve roll you can choose to then Combat Squad them.

This gives you more options to turn them into even more specialized units. (At the same price cost as 2x 5's)

Example:
I run 2x PF/SS, 4x PW/Pistol, 4, Pistol/SS

If I want to be an anvil and tank a unit for a turn or two that I feel threatening me after DoA so I can get out of DS status with my guys I combat squad 5x SS into a squad and assault and bog it down.

If I want to take out a MC or LR I combat squad my 2x PF's into a squad and assault it. Remember attaching a Reclusiarc takes away your HI...

If there's a threatening squad like Sang Guard with 2+ but no invuls I combat squad 4 power weapons + something and assault that.

You have options this way, same point cost and you have a specialized squad good at everything.

I also agree on doing HG with 4x special weapons. I like Melta though as I use them to pop big transports for my VV to assault.

kenshin620 wrote:

Awesome Christ wrote:one thing I would say is if you're sticking the Priests with jump squads give them the P fist instead of the sarg. same cost for the fist same 2 attacks on the profile, but WS5.

Congrats, now I can eliminate your Fist before it can do anything to my MC/Walker

Priests are a top priority to kill in CC and since they're an IC they tend to die fast with a determined opponent

hmm a fair point, I usually don't fight too many MCs and walkers usually go down to a pair or trio of meltas before that happens. I was thinking more for tank poping or multi wound squads that don't just cause insta-death, for which that usually works well for me.

syypher wrote:If your taking VV don't take 2x groups of 5.

Take 1x group of 10. After you roll the reserve roll you can choose to then Combat Squad them.

This gives you more options to turn them into even more specialized units. (At the same price cost as 2x 5's)

Example:
I run 2x PF/SS, 4x PW/Pistol, 4, Pistol/SS

If I want to be an anvil and tank a unit for a turn or two that I feel threatening me after DoA so I can get out of DS status with my guys I combat squad 5x SS into a squad and assault and bog it down.

If I want to take out a MC or LR I combat squad my 2x PF's into a squad and assault it. Remember attaching a Reclusiarc takes away your HI...

If there's a threatening squad like Sang Guard with 2+ but no invuls I combat squad 4 power weapons + something and assault that.

You have options this way, same point cost and you have a specialized squad good at everything.

I also agree on doing HG with 4x special weapons. I like Melta though as I use them to pop big transports for my VV to assault.

If you're playing the reserves game hard then you want as many chances to get a unit on the table as possible. Having more smaller units gives you more chances to put stuff on the table, and lets them land in multiple areas so that you can bring pressure to more than one place if needed. You actually end up losing flexibility and consistency by taking a big unit instead of 2 smaller ones. You can get that cheeky indirect unit customization though the combat squads, but you also lose out on a second cheap PF. You could also just equip your 5 man units with the same diverse wargear to get similar results.

I actually ran this the other day:

HQ:
Sanguinor

Elites:
Sang. Priest, Power Weapon, Jump Pack
Sang. Priest, Power Weapon, Jump Pack

Troops:
10x Assault Marines, 2x Meltaguns, Sgt Power fist
10x Assault Marines, 2x Meltaguns, Sgt Power fist
10x Assault Marines, 2x Flamers, Sgt Power fist

Fast Attack:
10x Vanguard, Sgt. Power fist, Power fist

Total: 1500

I was playing against a Dark Eldar Haemonculus coven and it worked out alright. I lost, but it was a very close game. At the end, I still had more than 25% of my army, but I wasn't able to cripple my opponent's raiders before they escaped my reach. To be honest, it was really fun, although I maybe made a mistake combat squadding everything (but I was concerned about leaving big 10-man blobs for him to roast with liquifiers) - the combat squads allowed him to gain pain tokens, preventing me from sweeping his army.

I've really wanted to use the 4x Melta HG, but I'm concerned that they won't be worthwhile, since I would be left without anything that can tip the balance in a big combat. It would also force me to take a Librarian (most likely) and I'm fairly unimpressed with them.

Other than more redundancy on my meltaguns (which I admit I need when I'm doing no damage with 100% of my shots), I don't really see the benefit of having an HG/Librarian over the Sanguinor, since it's more expensive, much less effective in combat, and doesn't provide any force multipliers other than the morale bubble and a free Sanguinary Priest.

Equipping the same 5 man squad with diverse wargear limits you.

2x 5 man squads.
1 for MC killing with 2 PF's/SS and 3 Pistol/SS
1 for bogging down units with 4 PW/ Pistol and 1 Pistol/SS

Same points, as 1x 10 man. If your trying to "diversify gear" and have one squad be efficient at MC killing with 2 PFs. Which if your fighting someone without loads of MCs or without the need of really having 2x PFs in 1 5man squad then your already behind and your stuck with that 5 man squad like that. (This is just an example for how this path can limit your options. Not the only way it limits.)

With DoA you have a 77% chance of coming with a single unit. Which is very good for arguments sake. In this case a group of 10 VV. With 2x groups of 5 you have that same chance of something coming in but now you have redundency. More chances of stuff coming in because your rolling for 2 squads now but also a weaker squad of only 5, that cannot specialize. Also you increase your chance of not coming in at full strength. 23% chance of failure with 1x 10 man squad. 23% chance of failure twice for 2x 5 man coming in.

Let's say to make things easier you have your 2x diverse war gear squads as you suggested. One anvil unit with SS's meant for bogging down a CC special unit with PWs/Fists/THs or what not and one with 4x PW's to take out those 2+ no invul CC specialists. Your playing someone where one isn't as needed as the other and you roll but the one you don't need comes in. You don't have this problem with a 10 man squad.

With a 10 man squad you always get a squad diversified to do whatever you want. You roll reserves and say it comes in. You now can split it for whatever you want. CC specialists with PWs, MC/Tank killing with Fists, or SS all around for anvil. You can also not split it and now you have the option of really messing someones day up with a huge multi-assault of a killer unit.


Diversifying your 2x 5 mans will come out to the same points. Having the exact same squad wit 1 PF in each will save you 15 points on a PF total compared to a 1x 10 man squad but you also lower your options to adjust to the enemy.

Probably one of the biggest reasons I support 1x 10 man is options to adjust the squad mid game and be efficient at whatever you want. This forces your enemy to start adjusting to you and playing around your tricks. That's half the battle.

So, my thoughts after playing Jump variants for a few months now:

-Vanguard can be essential, if you build your list a particular way. Why? Because you give them storm shields and have them negate something for a few turns, and maybe kill it. Assault termis? VV can hold them up and reduce them a bit. Dread? MC? All capable of being dealt with.

-Librarian + blood lance + DoA is fun. Unleash Rage as well and you're not doing too shabby.

-I'd go Dante over the Sanguinor, if you're bringing Honor Guard. Drop and pop something. Nearly guaranteed. Or, take an ASM combat squad w/ 2 x melta and an infernus and have Dante drop with that.

-And going with the above, SG dovetail quite nicely, especially if they are scoring. But this is really for 1850+ pts.

Xca|iber wrote:

I've really wanted to use the 4x Melta HG, but I'm concerned that they won't be worthwhile, since I would be left without anything that can tip the balance in a big combat. It would also force me to take a Librarian (most likely) and I'm fairly unimpressed with them.

Other than more redundancy on my meltaguns (which I admit I need when I'm doing no damage with 100% of my shots), I don't really see the benefit of having an HG/Librarian over the Sanguinor, since it's more expensive, much less effective in combat, and doesn't provide any force multipliers other than the morale bubble and a free Sanguinary Priest.

If you can find the points then you can take the Honor Guard without taking the Librarian. Your HQs aren't required to join the HG unit, the only requirement to get a unit of HG is that you can have only 1 HG unit per HQ choice. Sanguinor allows you to take one, just like the rest of the HQs. Of course you need to find points for it.

As for Librarians, I've found them to be very good. Shield is nice when you're dropping in the open and also for the games where you deploy on the table. Unleash Rage makes your Assault Squads into something that can really hit hard. The psychic hood is also very nice to have. I think if you want to try dropping Sanguinor to get the Honor Guard then you'll want to set up your VV unit to be a bit more of a combat hammer. Get some Storm Shields in there and a power weapon/lightning claw or two.

syypher wrote:Equipping the same 5 man squad with diverse wargear limits you.

2x 5 man squads.
1 for MC killing with 2 PF's/SS and 3 Pistol/SS
1 for bogging down units with 4 PW/ Pistol and 1 Pistol/SS

Same points, as 1x 10 man. If your trying to "diversify gear" and have one squad be efficient at MC killing with 2 PFs. Which if your fighting someone without loads of MCs or without the need of really having 2x PFs in 1 5man squad then your already behind and your stuck with that 5 man squad like that. (This is just an example for how this path can limit your options. Not the only way it limits.)

With DoA you have a 77% chance of coming with a single unit. Which is very good for arguments sake. In this case a group of 10 VV. With 2x groups of 5 you have that same chance of something coming in but now you have redundency. More chances of stuff coming in because your rolling for 2 squads now but also a weaker squad of only 5, that cannot specialize. Also you increase your chance of not coming in at full strength. 23% chance of failure with 1x 10 man squad. 23% chance of failure twice for 2x 5 man coming in.

Let's say to make things easier you have your 2x diverse war gear squads as you suggested. One anvil unit with SS's meant for bogging down a CC special unit with PWs/Fists/THs or what not and one with 4x PW's to take out those 2+ no invul CC specialists. Your playing someone where one isn't as needed as the other and you roll but the one you don't need comes in. You don't have this problem with a 10 man squad.

With a 10 man squad you always get a squad diversified to do whatever you want. You roll reserves and say it comes in. You now can split it for whatever you want. CC specialists with PWs, MC/Tank killing with Fists, or SS all around for anvil. You can also not split it and now you have the option of really messing someones day up with a huge multi-assault of a killer unit.


Diversifying your 2x 5 mans will come out to the same points. Having the exact same squad wit 1 PF in each will save you 15 points on a PF total compared to a 1x 10 man squad but you also lower your options to adjust to the enemy.

Probably one of the biggest reasons I support 1x 10 man is options to adjust the squad mid game and be efficient at whatever you want. This forces your enemy to start adjusting to you and playing around your tricks. That's half the battle.

You will also lose the ability to spread your force around the table as needed. If you're taking units of Vanguards you're probably building your list in a way that makes them very important. Having multiple small units lets you just demolish an enemy backfield in a couple of rounds. Units of Long Fangs, vehicles, etc etc that are spaced in such a way that 1 large unit (even after combat squads) can't touch them all in one turn are going to be frustrating. You also can box faster moving armies in easier because you can bring pressure from multiple angles and force some difficult choices. You lose a bit of flexibility in your wargear, but you gain a lot of flexibility in your options related to deployment and pressure. The wargear is more linear because it is something that you can see when you take/don't take it, whereas options within the game aren't so symmetrical. I really like the ability to concentrate or spread my force around the table as needed and I can get close to the same utility as a big 10 man unit in terms of wargear (not quite there, but pretty close) with smaller units.

Also if I was building diverse smaller units to be strong in combat I wouldn't go overboard on any one thing. Probably 3 SS, a Powerfist and a Lightning Claw in each. Now both units are pretty good at doing anything I want them to. They can also be in multiple places at once the instant they make their reserve roles. I think this is strategic flexibility vs linear force, and I don't think there is a right or wrong answer. I think it is entirely dependent on what the rest of your army looks like and what role you want your Vanguards to fill. I wasn't trying to say "you're wrong" so much as "there are other options" if that makes sense.

kenshin620 wrote:

Awesome Christ wrote:one thing I would say is if you're sticking the Priests with jump squads give them the P fist instead of the sarg. same cost for the fist same 2 attacks on the profile, but WS5.

Congrats, now I can eliminate your Fist before it can do anything to my MC/Walker

Priests are a top priority to kill in CC and since they're an IC they tend to die fast with a determined opponent

Even if the fist was on the sarg instead of the priest the player controlling the walker should dump every single one of it's attacks into the priest. It would knock the str of the sarg's pfist down from a 9 to an 8, but most importantly it's worth trading a walker for a priest even if the walker costs more points.

Power weapons are a good deal on a priest. Going from 75 to 90 points isn't a huge increase in points, and it's well worth 4 WS5 I5 S5 attacks. The priest kills MEQ outright 4/9 times on the charge, and with 4 attacks that's going to average 2 dead MEQ per charge which adds a good chunk to combat resolution. The key is because they are at I5 when a priest gets sucked into CC at least he already got all his swings off before the MEQ player contemplates just how many attacks he should dump into the priest (Personally I think the MEQ player should dump every attack possible into the priest regardless if he has a pweaon or pfist, but that's just my 2 cents). He is also not that hard to keep alive in BA V MEQ fights as long as one of his squad mates ensures that the Pfist is locked in CC >3" from the priest, because as long as it's not within 2" of a unit basing the priest the priest is safe from the fist.

@caffran9: ya is all a good debate no hurt feelings of whose right our wrong.

With what you said your primary point being that you can spread out your force and assault multiple squads in the backfield if you take two 5 man vv squads isn't an advantage over my suggested 10 man being stuck in one place all together limiting their that range as you put it...

You know you can combat squad after you roll reserves and before you roll your deep strike. Meaning you get you 10 man squad in. You then split them in 2 if you need to. (since you have an option too and you can even split the war great anyway you want) then if you chose to split them you can now deepstrike both units at two different locations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Typing on a phone sucks...

My understanding was that the combat squad when they get deployed, so they need to land together and then they can spread out from there. If that is incorrect then yea, just ignore that whole part of my post.

Funny thing in all this is that I'm currently running a single unit of 10 with a pile of Storm Shields, Powerfists and Power Weapons, though it is to make room for a pair of Baal Predators.

If I was playing no support though and my list was very aggressive, I'd be playing 3 smaller units. I want to make sure that I get 2 units of them on turn 2 as often as possible at that point because they set up the game for the rest of the army. This is actually where my playtesting with this style of army started like5 months ago and the Vanguards were the MVPs in that kind of list. I just wanted some ranged support, so it has changed a lot since then.

It really depends on the list and intended roles of the units. I'm using them as a hammer now so I want lots of them together, but if I'm using them to protect the rest of my army I want as many chances to put them on the table as possible (meaning as many reserves rolls as possible).

Your list looks pretty solid. A couple changes I would make though. Switch the Reclusiarch for a Librarian. The Librarians shield power can give a chunk of units a cover save, while Blood Lance can potentially take out any clumps of tanks.

The assault squads are good, but I would mess with the vanguard vets. You mentioned super units, and you are correct, they will tear it a new one. Equip some storm shields in there and a power fist. You don't need more than 5 either.

@ Caffran9. My load out for VV is Sarge with Glaive & SS, LC & SS, and PF. I suggest putting the glaive on the sargent if you are going to give him a SS. A free upgrade from the power weapon, and since you can never get an extra attack with a SS, the two-handedness is negated. I agree 100% with your tactics though.

@ Awesome Christ. I would suggest against putting PF's on the priests. Sure they are attacking at WS 5, but they are also Independent Characters which means that they can be singled out in close combat. The sergeant cannot be singled out.

I would also get some Honour Guard w/ meltaguns. They give you a non-IC priest and up to 4 melta's on the drop. Another nice thing about the Honour Guard is that they have 2 attacks base. So even if you get charged or charge with them, you're getting 10-15 MEQ attacks even though they all have meltaguns.

The 1000pt list I ran a couple times last night looked like this

Librarian - JP, Shield, Lance
Honour Guard - JPs, meltagun x2
Priest - JP, hand famer
Assault Squad x10 - PF, meltagun x2
Assault Squad x5 - hand flamer, meltagun
VV x5 - glaive & SS, LC & SS, PF

I turned the big assault squad into 2 combat squads (PF in one, 2 melta in other) and attached the librarian to the PF squad. I attached the priest to the small assault squad. Deployment is tricky, but it is certainly a different type of army to play. I ended up beating Thousand Sons and Orks.