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I especially liked these parts of the "create your own datafax" article:

"Another example of this is players that have an Iron Warriors Chaos Space Marine army that used to be allowed to include Imperial Basilisks. This is no longer allowed in standard-sized games, but in Apocalypse they can be included by simply taking Basilisks from the Imperial Guard army list along with an army chosen from Codex Chaos Space Marines."

and

"Next, consider adding some brand new things to the datasheet to reflect the unique qualities of your model."

Soooo, don't like the new Defiler? Then make a datafax for it using the old rules in the last Chaos Codex. Give it a spiffy name new name, though, like Defiler MK1, so that you can say it's a different type of Defiler than the one in the new Codex.

Or, need a legion of Iron Warriors? Make a datafax for them using the Books of Chaos rules in the last Codex. You could even make datafaxes for all the Chaos legions using the old rules variants in the last codex. So, the Legions aren't gone, they've simply been removed from the current codex and reassigned to Apocalypse battles. Yay!!

Kid_Kyoto wrote:...

"The Hand of the Emperor"
AV 20/20/20
Living metal
S - Special

Sometimes, such as when 3 wraithlords are fielded, the Space Emporer gets real (x2) mad and reaches down with his hand (represented by the players hand) and grabs the offending unit and smites it (represented by picking up your opponent's model and hurling it against the wall).

You realise though that a D Strength weapon will still cane that in 1 round of shooting.

I've heard about a few ork sheets that are knocking around, I guess we'll see those when the codex is officially released.

Stupid question, but is there any movement in regular 40k to allow these, particularly in tournaments?

Yea, they really need to make at least guidlines for making your own datafax's. I mean, sure, putting a point cost on "Ignores Crew Stunned and Shaken if within 6" of the command vehicle" might be tricky. But would it kill them to make rules that said "Ok, a Rhino chasis is worth X points, with extra points of AV costing Y points a peice, and the weapons cost Z..."

Seriously VDR does a decent job, it just doesn't scale up as well (as was pointed out) and is incomplete. Why GW would just ignore that competition instead of making an "Official Datafax Generator" that most people would insist on using because it is "official" is beyond me. They have to have some sort of formulae for points costs, so why not let us use it so we can blow cash making scratch build models we can never use in tournaments? Please, let me spend 200$ in bitz so I can make a Knight Templar with two Exorcist Launchers and twin linked multi-meltas, along with a flash datafax with a GW logo to go with it. It is as though the NFL suddenly stopped liscensing tee shirts.

Lord_Mortis wrote:I especially liked these parts of the "create your own datafax" article:

My favorite part of the article was "Duty's Fist". Hehehe. Duty. Fist. Hehehehe...

Soooo, don't like the new Defiler? Then make a datafax for it using the old rules in the last Chaos Codex. Give it a spiffy name new name, though, like Defiler MK1, so that you can say it's a different type of Defiler than the one in the new Codex.

Or, need a legion of Iron Warriors? Make a datafax for them using the Books of Chaos rules in the last Codex. You could even make datafaxes for all the Chaos legions using the old rules variants in the last codex. So, the Legions aren't gone, they've simply been removed from the current codex and reassigned to Apocalypse battles. Yay!!

Or you could just copy/paste the entire codex on a datasheet.



CHAOS SPACE MARINES

POINTS: 0 + MODELS


FORMATION:

3+ of the following units:
Chaos Lord or Chaos Sorcerer Lord or Daemon Prince (see below)
Chaos Lieutenant or Chaos Sorcerer (see below)
Greater Daemon (see below)
Chosen (see below)
Possessed Chaos Space Marines (see below)
Obliterator Cult (see below)
Chaos Space Marines (see below)
Daemon Pack (see below)
Nurglings (see below)
Chaos Raptors (see below)
Chaos Space Marine Bikers (see below)
Daemonic Beasts (see below)
Chaos Havocs (see below)
Chaos Predator (see below)
Chaos Dreadnought (see below)
Chaos Land Raider (see below)
Chaos Defiler (see below)


SPECIAL RULES:

What New Codex?: FZORGLE! Use the rules from Codex: Chaos Space Marines (Haines et al, 2002).

I think complexity of a good VDR would require too much game designer work, with too little return. It's one of those things that would be a lot better being in the realm of open source. Something fan made and done. You really don't need the "official" stamp on everything, especially with Apocalypse.

VDR as it was, was neat, but like was pointed out above, in the wrong hands it lead to abuse. I remember when things were quickly house ruled, but not everyone agreeing made our group outlaw it entirely.

I wonder why the Kroot merc list was changed as it was, and what real benefit is the kroot shaper being what he is ? A psyker with no powers?

That being said, I would love to see some fan based lists with tweaks to what already is out.

A proper 13th Company list, along with LaTD, and Kroot Mercs. It doesn't look like it would take much to make them a little better, though making them too complex would be outside the realm of a datafax.

Just wondering, for extreme stupidity, if the GK's fall under the control of the Chaos player to "cleanse" the people who witnessed the Demon infestation, couldn't he say, have units within the formation assault each other?

Such a stupid, stupid rule.

I agree. Redeemer formation is totally rad, except for the lame special rule at the end.

Capt K

Considering the way most people imagine GW to make up rules and point costs anyway, with no actual formulaic reason for those point costs, any player's homegrown model+point cost will be just as accurate.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:SPECIAL RULES:

What New Codex?: FZORGLE! Use the rules from Codex: Chaos Space Marines (Haines et al, 2002).

Toreador wrote:I wonder why the Kroot merc list was changed as it was, and what real benefit is the kroot shaper being what he is ? A psyker with no powers?

That being said, I would love to see some fan based lists with tweaks to what already is out.

A proper 13th Company list, along with LaTD, and Kroot Mercs. It doesn't look like it would take much to make them a little better, though making them too complex would be outside the realm of a datafax.

Kroot Merc datasheet has got me thinking about kroot again, messing around with an "APOC in 1500 Points" list with them. Lack of eviscerators / power weapons is a tough one, but in the end that was a pretty massive crutch keeping the old list up

Unfortunately I have no idea what APOC says Knarlocs do, so kinda stalled at the moment.

- Salvage

Of course you don't need it to be official, but it would be nice if there was a generally accepted "official" system to make your own vehicles and the like. This is for the same reason we have official RAW that we use in pick up games, but house rules we break out when our buddies come over.
All I am saying is, it would be nice if GW would make the effort to produce a "build your own tank/big critter" system so we would have some sort of better base to start from. Even if it were 10% or more over the price of equivalent units in the codex, it would still be fun, and having it be a GW standard item would mean I could take my new kitbash model and rules over to the store and play with some new person with the assumption it probably isn't overpowered for the price cost.

It isn't necessary, but neither is kissing your wife when you get home from work. They are, however, both appreciated and their absence generates a fair amount of spite.

Nope, it's agreed, but probably beyond of the scope of what GW would want to use resources for. You never know, if Apoc does well, it could be a sourcebook in the future, or White Dwarf articles.. or even better. Open source it, come up with some real good rules and present it to GW for a White Dwarf article.

win win.

I think GK killing of their own would be frowned up in Apoc. It's more about the fun and fluff, not exlploiting rules. Though I am sure it would happen.

Think a better rule would be to have a third party suddenly take control, or have a dice off to see who controls them this round.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Just wondering, for extreme stupidity, if the GK's fall under the control of the Chaos player to "cleanse" the people who witnessed the Demon infestation, couldn't he say, have units within the formation assault each other?

Such a stupid, stupid rule.

You would really do that, Voodoo? Really?

You're a bad person. A 'kill-the-kiddies-steel-the-sweets' kinda bad person.

His Master's Voice wrote:
You would really do that, Voodoo? Really?

You're a bad person. A 'kill-the-kiddies-steel-the-sweets' kinda bad person.

Having the models in the formation kill each other seems kinder than having the formation assault its erstwhile allies, no?

Why would GK's kill themselves after witnessing/ battling raw chaos, when they've spent their entire lives steeling their resolve so they are incapable of corruption? And why would they suddenly turn on people that have helped them or fought along side them? In the scope of the game that is slowed.

Capt K

VDR failed at both ends of the spectrum. An AV14/14/14 multi-Ordnance monstrosity was an obvious problem. But so was a simple AV14/10/9 Battlecannon to provide support fire while exploiting auto-Glance from Hull Down.

The Datasheets are OK, because opponents can aways add a Blank Datasheet of their own to counter any silliness or excess. That's why Apocalypse is by mutual consent, rather than tournament-style.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Just wondering, for extreme stupidity, if the GK's fall under the control of the Chaos player to "cleanse" the people who witnessed the Demon infestation, couldn't he say, have units within the formation assault each other?

Hahaha!

In case anyone is interested, here is a link to my custom VDR generator. Unfortunately I don't have a text file describing all the details and such, but it shouldn't be too hard to figure out for the most part.

Ok....
A couple of Serious questions,
-Is one guy writing all of this garbage?

-Do people actually play with this sort of garbage when you have already been given the green light to play with what you want?

-Why does GW think a game with more figures, and even more suck is going to do well when you don't fix what was broken in the first place?

--Probably not

--Yep, happily been playing it. In fact, it is quite quite fun. Some really great games so far.

--In an odd sort of way, without lists and more house rules we tend to balance and fix our own games. In fact, I think, the games tend to work a little more because it isn't so ultra competitive and more light hearted. It really wouldn't work well for a tournament or ultra competitive environment, but a lot of people I have talked to have had more fun playing Apoc than they have had playing any 40k game for the last several years. But really, it depends on your group and or shop. If it runs well, it is because of the people, not the rules.

Actually had someone argue that the rule was characterful and fluffy for the GK's.

RIGHT. That holds as much logic as the people who argue that GK's shouldn't get Meltas or Anti-Tank weapons, because they fight Demons. Apparently these people never played games against Defilers or any of the Chaos Tanks that had Demonic Possession (which happens to just about every chaos tank I've ever seen).

Also nice to see the Fire Prism get some cheese of its own to compete with the slowed Falcon Formation.

You know something's wrong when someone can take a Formation of 6 Fire Prisms, put out THAT kind of firepower, and then say, get hit with a Strength D 10" Blast, and then have them all be "Shaken" as they safely fly away.... If I'm not mistaken that formation is probably way better than the Eldar Titan.

Yeah, I guess GKs don't have the good sense to wait until after all the Emperor's enemies are defeated (even the non-Chaos ones) before they started "cleansing" their erstwhile allies.

well, they will just mark the planet for exterminatus when they leave anyway....

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Also nice to see the Fire Prism get some cheese of its own to compete with the slowed Falcon Formation.

You know something's wrong when someone can take a Formation of 6 Fire Prisms, put out THAT kind of firepower, and then say, get hit with a Strength D 10" Blast, and then have them all be "Shaken" as they safely fly away.... If I'm not mistaken that formation is probably way better than the Eldar Titan.

What's more fun is that the new ability is free for the Fire Prisms. There's no formation cost, so all you have to do is pay for 6 Fire Prisms (+ the ubiquitous holo-fields and spirit stones), and you get a multi-shot, twin-linked uber barrage death cannon.

BYE

Toreador wrote:well, they will just mark the planet for exterminatus when they leave anyway....

Then wouldn't they just leave immediately? Then instead of being controlled by the Chaos player they would just be removed from the table and the game would end - counting as a loss for both sides.

Sure, but that would be less fun than letting them run amok.

Weren't there old stories (and I mean old) of Grey Knights even purging Space Marines?

I still think just an even up die roll would be great every round as they take it out on everyone.

But like was said above, most likely daemons will still be around.

That GK rule is pretty dumb, IMO. Here's why - it leads to two completely slowed tactics:

- The GK player makes sure his "all daemons must die" Marines don't kill the last Daemon remaining, while
- The Daemon player runs his Daemon straight at the GK's instead of all those other tasty targets which are much easier to take down.

The thought behind the rule is cool, but ultimately leads to big, fat, stinky blue-veined tactics to work around it.

Viperion

You know what, It's Apocalypse. Make them teleport out instead, or make a leadership check against their commander's Ld. to see whether the turn on the good guys or not.

Yeah I honestly don't see anyone playing Apocalypse other than as a megabattle-type event anyway. Until I see tournies (stupidly) using this "ruleset", screw the rules.

The Power Cosmic wrote:Make them teleport out instead ...

Overzealous Celebrations - If at any point after the Grey Knights have entered play there are no Chaos models on the table, the Grey Knights teleport off planet to begin 666 days of celebratory feasts. Remove all members of the Redeemer Force from the table. If the scenario uses victory points the Grey Knights removed due to Overzealous Celebrations do not count as destroyed (though victory points are earned for those squads destroyed or depleted prior to leaving the table).

HOUSE RULE!

- Salvage