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Hypothetical Situation:
A Rune priest attached to a squad of Grey Wolves open fire on some orks. The Rune priest uses Jaws of the Wolf and covers 4 orks and the Grey Wolves fire their bolters and cause 3 unsaved wounds.

Question:
Since Jaws is a Phycic shooting attack and the Rune priest is attached to the squad shooting, the results from each take place at the same time. Therefore since I can remove any 3 orks from the squad (for failed wounds) could I remove 3 that have to take an initiative test from Jaws?

I see no rule why not but I await input

Well, i cant quite remember the rules for jotww, but doesnt it say all models in the line must take an init test or die? (or sumthing like that) at which point, those three would be the ones that die, because it says "models" thats why jotww is so good, its for sniping fists or special/heavy weapons.

So, he would take 4 inititive test and the 3 wounds becaue it all happens at the same time, so he cannot remove the 4 in the line of jotww.

Sorry if this is a little confusing, im to tired to properly form sentences, 16 hours sleep out of 96 hours isnt fun.

Yeah Tekeino it targets models and that gives it it's strenght. However I believe that I have found a drawback

Jaws does not cause wounds. It forces an initiative test.
Shooting causes wounds
Since these both happen at THE SAME TIME I see no rule why not allocate the wound and the initiative test to the same model.
I know I can't allocate 2 wounds to the same model, but tests are not wounds

You can allocate the wounds to the orks taking the I test.

Yeah, that's perfectly legal. This is one of the many reasons I never use JOTWW, especially not as anti-infantry. However, it CAN be abused to hit two squads, tagging a single model in the first squad and a bunch of models a the second squad behind it, allowing the Grey Hunters to fire at the first squad (since the first model hit is the target) while Jaws does damage to the squad behind.

Still not worth taking IMO.

Is this view shared by all?
My Space Wolf opponent does not seem to think so and I am having a hard time convincing him :(

sn0zcumb3r wrote:Is this view shared by all?
My Space Wolf opponent does not seem to think so and I am having a hard time convincing him :(

It isn't clear since although JotWW is a psychic shooting attack it behaves so differently from normal weapons that it is hard to know exactly when in the steps for resolving shooting that its effects should be implemented.

One interpretation would be that because it doesn't follow the normal 'wound' process of a shooting attack that its results are resolved immediately (before other normal 'wounding' and other casualty removal are resolved for the rest of the shooting inflicted by the same unit as the Rune Priest).

The other interpretation (as has been presented here) is that since it is a psychic shooting attack no matter how it affects models those models still aren't removed until casualty removal, at which point actual wounds can be 'dumped' onto the same models.

The argument against the latter interpretation is that JotWW doesn't cause 'casualties' it simply removes models from play. Of course the counter to *that* argument is if the models don't count as casualties does that mean the unit can no longer count as destroyed when the last model is killed (as some of the models are not casualties, they just aren't on the table...kind of like being in Reserves)?

Hello everybody, I am new to this forum, I joined to take place on this discussion. I play Space wolves, in fact I am the aforementioned opponent .

The situation described above of jaws taking 5 boyz out, and the grey hunters causing 1 wound, which was arguably allocated to one of the 'jawd" boyz.

From my point of view,and the way I understand the rules, here we have One unit ( priest and hunters)who are trying to shoot at a boy mob with every way they can.
The sequence for the normal shooting phase still aplies and is followed for both units until the part where they roll for hits.
At that point, the hunters roll the dice to try and hit their opponents, whereas the priest's shooting attack, causes a characteristic test which is resolved immediately.(Page 8) The priest's attack does just that. It doesnt cause wounds, and it doesn't destroy models. After this step, the remaining steps of the shooting sequence take place following the rules for normal shooting.( roll for wounds, allocate, take saving throws, remove models) At the end of the phase the unit checks the numbers of models remaining in its strenght and models that are missing since the start of the phase count as casualties. See page 44 of the rulebook,( morale section) Models lost in a phase of the game count as causalties.( "a unit losing 25% of its models during a single phase must pass a Morale check at the end of that phase ,or else they will fall back"") This is open, you could argue that are many ways to cause casualties rather than shooting. A unit that has no models left counts as destroyed, therefore a runeprist's jaws of the world wolf can cause morale tests and a unit to be destroyed.

I expect some argument from you guys, that follow some solid cases.

You can argue that the rune priest's attack should follow the same shooting sequence in terms of time for the purposes of removing casualties altogether , claiming that he is somewhat a different unit and therefore has his own shooting sequence that goes parallel way with the normal, but then I would argue that if things are like that and he causes casualties in a different sequence than the squad then his caualties should be taken seperately than alltogether. Other than that, this is plain fiction. You cant invent rules just because you think the followning rules are not enough to solve this problems, also I dont think that GW wanted this power to reach such complicated arguments just because jaws is good against 2-3 armies. You just make the power when it is good to do so, and get some results from it. It is the primer psychic power of the codex after all.

GW wanted this power to reach such complicated arguments just because jaws is good against 2-3 armies.

Other than Eldar and Dark Eldar (and debatably IG) I don't really se many armies it isn't good against? Even against Eldar and DE it has it uses once you've popped the transports. A 1 in 6 chance to kill Eldrad, Lelith or Vect in 1 shot. I'd take that any day of the week! Not to mention Lysander, Calgar or Abbadon!

pitfighter wrote:Hello everybody, I am new to this forum, I joined to take place on this discussion. I play Space wolves, in fact I am the aforementioned opponent .

The situation described above of jaws taking 5 boyz out, and the grey hunters causing 1 wound, which was arguably allocated to one of the 'jawd" boyz.

From my point of view,and the way I understand the rules, here we have One unit ( priest and hunters)who are trying to shoot at a boy mob with every way they can.
The sequence for the normal shooting phase still aplies and is followed for both units until the part where they roll for hits.
At that point, the hunters roll the dice to try and hit their opponents, whereas the priest's shooting attack, causes a characteristic test which is resolved immediately.(Page 8) The priest's attack does just that. It doesnt cause wounds, and it doesn't destroy models. After this step, the remaining steps of the shooting sequence take place following the rules for normal shooting.( roll for wounds, allocate, take saving throws, remove models) At the end of the phase the unit checks the numbers of models remaining in its strenght and models that are missing since the start of the phase count as casualties. See page 44 of the rulebook,( morale section) Models lost in a phase of the game count as causalties.( "a unit losing 25% of its models during a single phase must pass a Morale check at the end of that phase ,or else they will fall back"") This is open, you could argue that are many ways to cause casualties rather than shooting. A unit that has no models left counts as destroyed, therefore a runeprist's jaws of the world wolf can cause morale tests and a unit to be destroyed.

I expect some argument from you guys, that follow some solid cases.

You can argue that the rune priest's attack should follow the same shooting sequence in terms of time for the purposes of removing casualties altogether , claiming that he is somewhat a different unit and therefore has his own shooting sequence that goes parallel way with the normal, but then I would argue that if things are like that and he causes casualties in a different sequence than the squad then his caualties should be taken seperately than alltogether. Other than that, this is plain fiction. You cant invent rules just because you think the followning rules are not enough to solve this problems, also I dont think that GW wanted this power to reach such complicated arguments just because jaws is good against 2-3 armies. You just make the power when it is good to do so, and get some results from it. It is the primer psychic power of the codex after all.

The problem you have here though is allocation of tests. There are no rules for this. You can allocate wounds sure, but nothing about allocating tests to a unit.

Since JOTWW is a PSA, then IMHO its resolved simultaneously to shooting, and therefore the orc can "double allocate" in this case.

At the end of the day it is all about timing and the timing inserted by tthe sw player has no basis in the rules. The it all happens at the same time argument is what follows the RaW most closely and this allows the Ork player to allocate wounds to the I testing models. However whether he would do this before or after the I test is totally unclear.

I don't think that the RaW answer is either clear or correct in this case. I'd play it the way the RaI clearly works and you can double assign. Why ignore the clear rules for unclear and obviously incorrect RaW? Unless you're trying to seek an unfair advantage?

liam0404 wrote:

The problem you have here though is allocation of tests. There are no rules for this. You can allocate wounds sure, but nothing about allocating tests to a unit.

Since JOTWW is a PSA, then IMHO its resolved simultaneously to shooting, and therefore the orc can "double allocate" in this case.

Obviously, tests are not allocated. I am only saying the clear thing in the rules, that since the shooting phase uses steps, ( for a pusrpose) the initiative test takes place at the first step, because this is the step where the priest along with the other models" shoots" . Steps, have a beginning and an ending. they resolve each one individualy from the rest. I would argue that you can spread the initiative test through all the steps just so you can claim it happens at the same time with the whole shooting phase. It just isn't like that.




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FlingitNow wrote:

GW wanted this power to reach such complicated arguments just because jaws is good against 2-3 armies.

Other than Eldar and Dark Eldar (and debatably IG) I don't really se many armies it isn't good against? Even against Eldar and DE it has it uses once you've popped the transports. A 1 in 6 chance to kill Eldrad, Lelith or Vect in 1 shot. I'd take that any day of the week! Not to mention Lysander, Calgar or Abbadon!

The chance of 16.66% to take out abbadon is not a good chance unless you are trying this with multiple rune priests for cumoulative rounds. And no, that is not a good strategy, unless you are the random smartass kid who just wants to ruin a game

Obviously, tests are not allocated. I am only saying the clear thing in the rules, that since the shooting phase uses steps, ( for a pusrpose) the initiative test takes place at the first step, because this is the step where the priest along with the other models" shoots" . Steps, have a beginning and an ending. they resolve each one individualy from the rest. I would argue that you can spread the initiative test through all the steps just so you can claim it happens at the same time with the whole shooting phase. It just isn't like that.

But you have nothing to back up that the I test is done then. there is no indication of timing and even if the I test is done then there is no indication of the timing of the removal of models.

pitfighter wrote:
Obviously, tests are not allocated. I am only saying the clear thing in the rules, that since the shooting phase uses steps, ( for a pusrpose) the initiative test takes place at the first step, because this is the step where the priest along with the other models" shoots" . Steps, have a beginning and an ending. they resolve each one individualy from the rest. I would argue that you can spread the initiative test through all the steps just so you can claim it happens at the same time with the whole shooting phase. It just isn't like that.

Well first things first - point to the section in the rulebook where the shooting phase is broken into steps, OTHER than the following:

-Rolling to hit
-Rolling to wound
-Taking Armour saves/FNP
-Removing casualties

There is no precedent for the process that you describe.

Well, guys, Im open minded to your opinions and I will accept any valid cases.

The shooting phase has steps, and No, there is nowhere in the rulebook that states particularly where does the priest's psychic attack is taking place,
But my basis is that the rune priest is a model and he is shooting. He is following the game's procedures like any other model. that is why I believe his psychic power and the initiative test are taking place along with the other models in the "roll to Hit" step, which is the first step that is done differently for him, but it is the actual shooting step. The thing is that he stops after that.


Aquire target -- he does
Check Line of sight -- he checks
check range -- he checks
Roll to hit -- causes initiative test
Roll to wound
Take armour saves
Remove casualties.


It just makes sence.

As for when the models are removed, the codex states the whole procedure happening immediately.( You guys are thinking it might not happening at the same time and it might happens along with the remove casualties step for your convenience.

Aquire target -- he does
Check Line of sight -- he checks
check range -- he checks
Roll to hit -- causes initiative test
Roll to wound
Take armour saves
Remove casualties.


This could easily be:

Check Line of sight -- he checks
check range -- he checks
Roll to hit -- he auto-hits
Roll to wound -- no roll required
Take armour saves -- causes initiative test
Remove casualties.

Or:

Check Line of sight -- he checks
check range -- he checks
Roll to hit -- he auto-hits
Roll to wound -- causes initiative test
Take armour saves -- none allowed
Remove casualties.

Or

Check Line of sight -- he checks
check range -- he checks
Roll to hit -- he auto-hits
Roll to wound -- causes initiative test
Take armour saves -- removed casualties
Remove casualties.

Or various other permutations. There is no guidance in the rules for this. That is the issue. Shooting is also all resolved "immediately" because where you've put in steps those steps also clearly exist in the JotWW power from taking I test to removing casualties. These are likewise 2 clearly different steps using your language.

The initiative checks might take place whenever you or your opponent like, but the "Remove Casualties" step will take place after the assigning of wounds as all the 'shooting' is simultaneous.

This could all be fixed by not having the Rune Priest in the squad of Grey Hunters.

Rune Priest shoots Jaws. orks die.

Grey Hunters shoot. orks die.




I think that the Characteristic test happens before rolling to wound. When firing Jaws you draw a line, models hit by that line must take a I test. effectivly, there is never a roll to wound, but there is a roll to hit.


I back this up by the fact that there are some weapons which cause Characteristic tests and wounds. I belive there is some DE weapons that force a Test for some other effect and then roll to wound as normal. there are weapons in Fantesy that do this too.

I am therefor of the opinion that PSAs that force tests are resolved immediatly before other attacks roll to wound.

There is no evidence in the 40k rules to suggest at which point in shooting resolution characteristic tests from Shooting weapons are taken.

I agree that you're better off detaching the Rune Priest and just shooting separately with him.

I dont know how this works with other examples or about any cases in the warhammer fantasy, and I am not making up any procedure or sequence describing that the rune priest is braking his psychic Shooting attack to steps. That is what you guys do. I am just sayin what the codex or the rulebook states. As a psychic shhoting attack, the rune priest still has to aquire a target. He has to check line of sight, and he has to check his range. thats why he has to follow the procedure and the steps of the normal shooting phase for these purposes. Just like the rest of the unit. But when the step comes and the unit rolls to hit, he has to make an action normally. And that is when the whole shooting attack is taking place and it is resolving immediately, because the result of it is a characteristic test with some result, and characteristic tests and their results happen and are resolved immediately. I am not saying something new guys it is in the rules. P8 . There is nowhere in the rulebook that states that if a characteristic test is caused by a psychic attack it should be brocken into steps to fit the shooting phase, neither that the result of the failed characteristic test should wait until the last step of the shooting phase so that the models that about to be removed will leave the board along with the casualties from the rest of the shooting.

It is a characteristic test, and is resolved altogether on its own, accordingly to the rules for the characteristic tests as described in the book.


You guys are just making up rules and steps and situations from your mind.

pitfighter, you are also making up timing rules by claiming that the effect is resolved immediately.

pitfighter - I am not going to claim how Jaws of the World Wolf interacts with other ranged attacks or wound allocation; but based on your interpretation I could use the Pavane of Slaanesh to move a unit closer and then hit them with Breath of Chaos or Boon of Mutation. I think that is going to be a hard sell to most people.

solkan wrote:pitfighter, you are also making up timing rules by claiming that the effect is resolved immediately.

Whereas when you have to resolve a characteristic's test in the game you discuss it with your oponent for a while and after that you continue resolving it in pieces for the duration of the player turn.....?


Does enewhere in the rulebook states that a characteristic test is not resolved immediately?

It is as plain and simple as it can get. The power states clearly that models have to take a test. And in the book on p8 states clearly that in order to take a test you roll a dice, etc.


It is that simple. To take the test, roll the dice and see what happens. There are no rules that is should break to fit the shooting phase or wait for the result till the remove casualties step , or any other purposes for other situations during a game.This is fiction you are saying people.

pitfighter wrote:Does enewhere in the rulebook states that a characteristic test is not resolved immediately?

Prove a negative? How about proving the positive first?

Darkfalz wrote:pitfighter - I am not going to claim how Jaws of the World Wolf interacts with other ranged attacks or wound allocation; but based on your interpretation I could use the Pavane of Slaanesh to move a unit closer and then hit them with Breath of Chaos or Boon of Mutation. I think that is going to be a hard sell to most people.

I am sorry Darkfalz I havent encountered this power yet and I dont know anything about it. However if you are saying that this can move a unit closer to you so you can reach it with another power in the same unit, it is a whole different thing because the unit still checks line of sight and range altogether.


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kirsanth wrote:

pitfighter wrote:Does enewhere in the rulebook states that a characteristic test is not resolved immediately?

Prove a negative? How about proving the positive first?

I suggest you look at the same post where you found my quote.

The book describes the way characteristic tests are taken on p8.

Roll a dice and see what happens. immediately

The rule book says, on page 8 what a characteristic check is, it says nothing about it being taken immediately, just what it is.

Page 15 has the shooting sequence. At the end of this sequence is remove casualties.

Page 50 has what a PSA is. "Psychic powers that take the form of shooting attacks are very common. Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon (an assault weapon unless otherwise specified)."

I see nothing that says PSA casualties should ever be removed at a different time from other shooting attacks from the same unit.

I think the rules are clear here, the space wolves codex doesn't mention the word "immediately" anywhere in the description of the power. It says it is a psychic shooting attack, it says it causes models to be removed from play after failing a initiative test. You remove models from play as the last step of the shooting sequence.

pitfighter wrote:I suggest you look at the same post where you found my quote.

The book describes the way characteristic tests are taken on p8.

Roll a dice and see what happens. immediately

I suggest you find the word "Immediately" on the page you referenced.

LoL guys, the word immediately is not written. It is clear enough though that characteristic tests are resolved onepiece. As for the description of the psychic powers the book states that they count as shooting attacks for specific purposes, such as their need of checking a line of sight, and the need to assault the affected unit. But there no indication that the attack should break to follow the sequence of the normal attacks.

As for when the result of the test is resolved, I believe it is resolved on the same step of the phase it originaly begun. The roll to hit step ( IMHO)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It seems I cant convince you and you all seem like Space wolf trolls using countercases to argue with me. Unfortunately I am not able to find a way to communicate with GW and get an answer. My solution on the matter untill an official answer or patch would be the following : I would allow half of the models failing the test to have wounds allocated on them. This could make some sence fluffwise thinking that the earth open beneath them while the squad shoots at the same guys. I guess it could make sense that the bullets could still hit some of them while they are falling on the pit.....

Was this a friendly game you guys were playing or a tournament game? If it was a friendly game I would have diced off on it. 1,2,3 It happens first, 4,5,6 it happens at the same time.

Now to the Issue at hand.

In the rulebook you are correct pitfighter in that it does say resolve characteristic tests immediately. However, it does not say you ignore the normal rules for shooting because of this test. JotWW is done during the shooting phase. Therefore I interpret the sequence like this. JotWW goes off and causes 4 orkz to fail an I test, BUT you don't remove them, you continue to fire the rest of the squad and cause 2 more wounds. Since failing the I tests doesn't cause wounds, wounds can be allocated to those who failed the test. After allocation has gone through the affected models are removed from play/killed.

I think fluff wise (and I know Fluff does not equal rules I'm just trying to give an example) you could imagine that the orkz are getting hit by JotWW and falling into the crack at the same time as they are being shot. Thus the ones who are shot are actually dead and their corpses are falling into the crack.

I dont matter if the I test is done immediately, all shooting is resolved together, and ends with removing models (and any moral tests).
This is really to bad since a Rune priest need that back up unit to hide in.

Anyway, why not blast the orks with murderous hurricane or living lightning instead? this whole debate is based on a poor choise of psychic power.