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Rules for the Land Raider Achilles, taken from Imperial Armour Volume 10: The Badab War Part II can be found here
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/a/achilles.pdf

WarGear
• Hull-mounted Thunderfire cannon
• Two sponson-mounted twin-linked multi-meltas
• Searchlight and smoke launchers
• Extra Armour

It comes with a thunderfire cannon, which gives good anti-horde, and two TL MM, giving decent anti vehicle
It also gets extra armor for free, which is not bad.

Special Rules
Power of the Machine Spirit: A Land Raider can fire one more weapon than would normally be permitted based upon its Movement speed; This weapon may be fired at a separate target if desired. A Land Raider may also fire a single weapon even if it has suffered a Crew Shaken or Crew Stunned result that turn.

Ferromantic Invulnerability: The hull of the Achilles has been specially constructed to resist even the most determined assault and is almost preternaturally resilient. As a result, the Land Raider Achilles is not subject to the particular effects of the Lance and Melta special rules by attacks made against it. In addition it reduces the effects of all rolls on the damage chart made against it (other than by Destroyer type weaponry), by -1

PotMS is known and awesome. Ferromantic Invulnerability makes this vehicle tougher than a Monolith.

A Land Raider Achilles is a also Heavy Support choice in a Codex Space Marines, Codex Black Templars, Codex Space Wolves or Codex: Dark Angels army

The way I read this is that it can be used in any 40k game. The question is currently posted on YMDC.

The Land Raider Achilles is one of the rarest and most venerable Land Raider variants. In terms of armament, it is fitted out as a heavy siege tank with multi-meltas on its sponson mounts, and apotent hull mounted Thunderfire cannon at the cost of transport capacity. The Achilles' incredible durability exceeds that of even a standard pattern Land Raider, and its near-indestructibility has entered legend among the Adepts Astarte

With a transport capacity of 6, its not going to hold much of a squad. Its also not an assault vehicle, so the squad cannot leave and assault. The best use I can think of this would be to put 5 tactical marines in the vehicle to literally part it on an objective, making it impossible for another model to get within 3" of the objective.

So, dakka....is this tank hot or not..

So what's the legality status of this thing for regular play? Is a FW inclusion blurb good enough to make it tournament legal, or is this still 'opponent's consent' and therefore will never get played seriously?

Its like most forge world rules, overpowered. One of the main weakness for a Land Raider is Melta and AP1 weapons and this negates them. Nothing short of railguns will take it out.

Not to mention the sickening firepower that it has, considering it can fire at 2 targets per turn. 300 Points is too cheap for something that can objective camp with a tactical squad in it and not die.

Saying all that: Hell yes I want one.

Its biggest advantage is in one dimensional codices or spam armies because it can overcome both anti armor weakness and hordes weakness in one go. Specifically Deathwing at 2k+ is the list I see working best with this thing; another unkillable rock to soak down lascannon fire that can charge into the breach to kill other vehicles or gun away with 4 horde killing blast markers every turn.

Deathwing gets a big boost in two deficient areas from the Achilles. I don't think that SW, BA, or SM get nearly as much out of it, although an unkillable scoring brick is advantageous no matter who you are. The newer Marine codices, though, have more and better options for the 300 points to compete with.

1) No most peope will not let you play this in a "normal" game. A normal game uses only the BRB and a Codex per player. IF you agree to use forgeworld rules, then you may include forgeworld units in a regular codex list.

2) Stupidly good. There are only a few things that can kill it, and even then you have a very low chance. Also, it has very good guns. People do not take thunderfire cannons because of how fragile the artillery rules make them. You get 4 blasts that ignore cover at long range, and there is little that ignores cover outside of the range of a flamer. Then add it 2 Multimelta shots to nuke anything that comes close to it.

I had thought that this was already decided. Anything from Forge World is taken on a permission basis. It's always been that way, hasn't it?

There is nothing hot about it. It is broken beyong all gaming possibilities
3/4 of the list in the game have absolutely no way of scratching it so NO.

Not a great fan of marines personaly but consider the scenario where a SM army has no str 9 weapons because it's tactics work around drop pods and meltas for AV. Ooops your opponent brought this gg

That is terrifyingly powerful.

Too cheap for "one of the rarest and most venerable Land Raider Variants" in my opinion.

I wouldn't mind playing against this thing unless it was in a tournament. I also wouldn't want to play against it every single game because I reckon that would become boring.

Rules were tweaked for IA10, the above are not up to date.

Also, there's already a rage topic here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/337449.page

The PDF rules are not exactly the same as the IA rules. I got my copy of BadabII the other day.

Glancing hits are not subject to the -1 penalty. And, it's pricey.

Given the low transport capability (unable to carry terminators, or sizable squads) it's unlikely to be used to spearhead an assault. It'll either advance, trying to get multi-melta hits, or sit back with the thunderfire, possibly holding a combat squad to camp an objective.

It's not immune to a lot of things;

Monstrous creatures still get 2d6, auto-effect weapons (d-cannons/wraithguns, haywire/emp grenades) still get it, dreads, powerfists (esp. furiously charging ones), even lascannons can pen it. A deffrolla still crumples it.

Though, I think that the best approach to it is to ignore it. I don't think it will earn its points back unless you waste shots on it that could actually kill other things.

Just as Redbeard said, in IA10 it has a few minor changes (such as a small points increase).

Also, FW stuff is hardly the only thing that is opponent's consent.. it's a relic that keeps getting dragged up from the early IA books with superheavies. Anyone can refuse to play any army, it doesn't matter if it's FW or a codex army, at the end of the day, regardless of what army you play, everything is opponent's consent. If just depends on your opponents view of things, and it looks like in some places FW stuff is disliked because of the misconception that all FW stuff is overpowered.

Anyway, the Achilles has it's strong points, but it's really underwhelming on the battlefield for it's points cost. If you think about it, for it's points cost, you can take two manticores and have about 55 points spare to take it on.

It is amazingly good and well worth the point costs.

It's nearly impossible to kill and can park 5 marines inside and you have a guaranteed objective.

(My personal opinion is that this should either be banned, or if you take it, Marines are subject to Phase Out)

I'm not scared of this unit. Its hard to kill, and has some nice weapons, but not enough to justify the price. The real reason to fear LRs is usually the cargo... which is pretty bad in this case. Sure it can objective camp and probably won't die. But to score it needs to be uncontested... If they drive it on to yours, you can always try to contest it, and capture a different point. In 2 objective missions it will probably make it even more of a draw fest.

Generally I don't play against FW, and only really would be willing to play against it if I had advanced notice. Nobody likes to be surprised when you pull out something they don't know the rules to, and doubly so when its not even in the commonly available rule book and codexes. FW books or models aren't sold in stores anywhere near where I live, and I don't care enough to read the stuff elsewhere, and certainly wouldn't pay to do so.

DakkaDakka wrote:

I don't see what the big deal is. Its nasty, sure, but it'll still die to plenty of things. My Assault Cannons will rend this thing to shreds as easily as they do to everything else.

S'not tougher than a monolith, is it? I can still crack it open with vanquisher kannons or bastion-breachers afaik.

Commander Endova wrote:I don't see what the big deal is. Its nasty, sure, but it'll still die to plenty of things. My Assault Cannons will rend this thing to shreds as easily as they do to everything else.

Good one, an assault cannon has ~2.5% chance of destroying an achilles...

Broken and lame and not legal for regular play, thank the gods.

Snarky wrote:Also, FW stuff is hardly the only thing that is opponent's consent.. it's a relic that keeps getting dragged up from the early IA books with superheavies. Anyone can refuse to play any army, it doesn't matter if it's FW or a codex army, at the end of the day, regardless of what army you play, everything is opponent's consent. If just depends on your opponents view of things, and it looks like in some places FW stuff is disliked because of the misconception that all FW stuff is overpowered.

I think Snarky, that that's one of those points of differences between gaming in the US and the UK. In the US, it's quite common for IA rules to be allowed only with your opponents permission, thus you don't typically see them in tournaments. There are notable exceptions of course... but frequently over here, the IA books are not considered legitimate supplements and not subject to the same acceptance as rules in the standard rule book or codex.

I thought this was "codex legal", given the wording on the FW website.

Where does it say that it needs opponent's consent? I know all games are technically opponent's consent, but refusing to play a rules legal model is a bit off IMHO.

I would avoid playing a berk, but I'd base that decision on how they played in general, rather than the models they brought.

tedurur wrote:

Commander Endova wrote:I don't see what the big deal is. Its nasty, sure, but it'll still die to plenty of things. My Assault Cannons will rend this thing to shreds as easily as they do to everything else.

Good one, an assault cannon has ~2.5% chance of destroying an achilles...

No, really, I'm serious. I usually kill more AV14 with my Assault Cannon Razorbacks than my TL-Lascannon ones. I've also never put much stock in math hammer.

odorofdeath wrote:I had thought that this was already decided. Anything from Forge World is taken on a permission basis. It's always been that way, hasn't it?

Yes, because when you open up your rule book, you are told of only two books required to play the game; the rule book and your army codex. Forge World is not mentioned anywhere.

- edit -

Would I play against it? No. Not at all. I belive it is waaaay over the top. This is getting into Super Heavy Territory here, since this Landraider is harder to kill than most Super Heavies anyway.

DakkaDakka wrote:

Each shot from an assault cannon:

2/3 chance to hit, 1/6 chance to rend, 1/3 chance to penetrate, 1/6 chance for Vehicle - Destroyed

That's a 0.6% chance to destroy it per shot. Multiply by 4 and you get 2.46% chance with 4 shots.

His math is correct.

Che-Vito wrote:

Commander Endova wrote:

tedurur wrote:

Commander Endova wrote:I don't see what the big deal is. Its nasty, sure, but it'll still die to plenty of things. My Assault Cannons will rend this thing to shreds as easily as they do to everything else.

Good one, an assault cannon has ~2.5% chance of destroying an achilles...

No, really, I'm serious. I usually kill more AV14 with my Assault Cannon Razorbacks than my TL-Lascannon ones. I've also never put much stock in math hammer.

His math is off anyways. 5% chance of a pen, 10% chance of a pen or glance (with all four shots total.)

My math is not off, I did them for a none TL BS 4 AC tho. Mind showing me how you got your 5% chance of a pen with for shots?

Commander Endova wrote:No, really, I'm serious. I usually kill more AV14 with my Assault Cannon Razorbacks than my TL-Lascannon ones. I've also never put much stock in math hammer.

As well you should. A TL-AC has a better chance of destroying AV 14 than a TL-LC. In fact, across the board the AC has a better chance of destroying the vehicles due to the 4 STR 6 shots. When fighting AV 12, the odds are extremely close between the AC and LC, but every slightly in favor of the AC.

The only Achilles heel of the AC is range. 24" is pretty short range. In every other way, its superior to the LC for delivering damage.

-

Additionally, the mathammer says assault cannons are better than lascannons against AV 10,11,13,14 anyways. Your experience matches tha math. Range is a factor in this though, as it may give the lascannons more turns shooting, or better target selection. edit: to clarify: the odds are not in favor of the AC against av 12 - they can't glance. Although I suppose I'm meaning of scoring a damage table result, but unless open topped (are their any av 12 open topped?) a glance can't destroy, so AC might still be better at getting wrecked or explodes results.

I don't see anything in writing that prohibits the achilles. All I see are people who don't want to play against one - that's fine. You have the right to decline any game you want. In a tournament, its up to the TO anyways, so the debate on its "legality" is moot.

FWIW I would have no issue with imperial armour stuff. I don't even need to be told ahead of time since I don't tailor my lists anyways. As with all games, full list disclosure happens before selecting (rolling in most cases) mission/deployment.

odorofdeath wrote:I had thought that this was already decided. Anything from Forge World is taken on a permission basis. It's always been that way, hasn't it?

Nope. Forgeworld stuff is just as permissive as a codex. Your opponent has a right to refuse to play you for any reason they want, you don't need to ask permission to use it, although its considered poor form to not inform your opponent that you are taking forgeworld units.

Anyway, as others have said, this is not the final version of the rules.

Grakmar wrote:Each shot from an assault cannon:

2/3 chance to hit, 1/6 chance to rend, 1/3 chance to penetrate, 1/6 chance for Vehicle - Destroyed

That's a 0.6% chance to destroy it per shot. Multiply by 4 and you get 2.46% chance with 4 shots.

His math is correct.

You really can't just multiply by 4. What if the first shot kills the tank, then the other 3 are wasted.

To figure out these odds, I built a simulation engine to run them. I just built the 40k engine for shooting at vehicles and fired a weapon 25,000 at it, then tracked the results. You can find the tool here.
http://www.simhammer.com/node/7

Now, to handle the -1 to penetrating rolls, you will need change all results from 'exploded' to 'destroyed'. You cannot destroy on glancing, so it does not matter. When the simulation ran, it shows a exploded rate of ~3.26% when shooting at AV14 with a TL AC.

Don't agree with the numbers? There is a 'play by play' of 3 rounds of shooting below each simulation that traces the engine logic. If you see anything that looks fishy, let me know and Ill fix it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dracos wrote: to clarify: the odds are not in favor of the AC against av 12 - they can't glance. Although I suppose I'm meaning of scoring a damage table result, but unless open topped (are their any av 12 open topped?) a glance can't destroy, so AC might still be better at getting wrecked or explodes results.

According to my simulator, A TL AC has a better chance vs. AV 12. Sure, the AC can't glance -- it can only pen! Anytime a 6 is rolled on the dice for damage, its auto-pen (as rending takes it to a 13)