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Why take any other Lore on your Sorceror Lord?
Iceshard Blizzard stops shooting, combos well with Hellcannons and is a debuff. Curse of the Midnight Wind and Harmonic Convergance give that combat edge when you need it against really scary units. Windblast helps keep them from charging you and also knocks warmachines off hills. Chain lightning and Thunderbolt are the magic missiles you need for those small units and multiple warmachines. Comet destroys gunlines.
Death is second best, seeing as Purple Sun is for low initiative armies, im not that fussed in losing it because my units can all strike first with multiple S5 attacks. I dont want to character snipe that badly as most of my characters and even some unit champions can smash face enough.
Tzeentch was good in the last edition, but really only has 3 good spells, Flickering Fire is good for putting out regen before hitting them with Lightning or Gateway. Gateway is good for just a 2D6 high strength direct damage spell and a chance for auto killing that 1800pt deathstar unit. Pandemonium is good for two reasons. Your opponent MUST dispel it if he has any sort of magic, which means he might have to dispel it in his magic phase costing power dice and for negating that Leadership bonus from the general, which again, works wonders with a Hellcannon. For these reasons i take Tzeentch on a Lv2 Sorceror usually on foot.
Shadows and Fire dont really fit with my army. Fire isnt necessary and Shadows has debuffs and a buff i dont need and is again initiative orientated like Death.

So thoughts? Experiences? Whats your take on this Lore?

Well all of the magic can be used to different effects based on your opponet, I personally dont like heavens, because I mean its not very unique I would choose tzeentch over most of the other lores.In addition it unifies with my army. Also I would say Infernal gateway if way better than comets, plus comets take turns to charge (I think)

Wow, I had never even considered it for a WoC sorcerer! Death and shadow are just too tempting... will give it some thought and see if I have any more ideas than you've listed above.

If a book has its own magic, I think it's a good idea to use it. Most people, I suspect, don't plan for army-level magic. No one is thinking about Skaven, unless they know specifically they are going to play them. They think about purple sun. Just count how many threads there are on it.

The chaos books are really nice. I prefer Nurgle because it has something for everyone and its casting values are very reasonable.

The only real dud in the Tz lore is Call to Glory. Baleful Transmogrification is less useful, but it does some surprises. For example, Vargulfs are only Ld4.... The real power in the Tzeentch lore is the +1 to cast. It's nuts in this edition.

I use Shadow more than Heavens because it's got a way more useful Lore Attribute.

Melkoth's Miasma: Excellent utility spell and works great with pit of shades and pendulum.
Steed of Shadows: Only real dud.
The Enfeebling: My units are now much harder to kill
The Withering: Your units are much easier to kill
Pit/Pendulum: Works with Miasma very well and kills Monsters and MI that Chaos can have issues with.
Mindrazor: Awesome strength on top of great defense? Yes, please

And all the great spells work in CC where your WoC units want to be anyway.

Heavens really should never be on a level 4 caster.. It has some decent utility spells but the ultimate spell sucks and so does the lore attribute

Use level 4s to annihilate enemies by picking Death, shadow, metal or life.. and use level 2s for other lores

Excuse me but i disagree chain lightning is a good (not great) spell and is far better than final transmutation, plus a buff lore can be far more usefull than a battle lore that would suck against many armies.

Dudes,
Lore attribute? Who cares!! Shadows lore attribute is useful vary rarely and its a good lore, but with the situations and reasons above heavens just works for MY army. Warriors. If i could take life i would, death has no appeal to me because i dont want to character snipe unless im REALLY worried about wizards and Purple Sun is good against low initiative armies, which i can just mash in combat. Another thing is death is fairly short ranged. You know what its like to roll good on the winds and not have anything in range? Warriors lack shooting right? With all my thunderbolts flying around i can usually have fun hitting bad things. Hellcannons can get those big monsters too, double hydras suck i know, but its a gimmick.

Ive found Tzeentch just as useful on a lv2 on foot or disc. Why go lvl 4? Is that extra +2 to cast really worth it? If you got Warriors, then try running a heavens lord and a lv2 Tzeentch with at least one hellcannon. Combo it up!

Magic shouldnt be about unit killing spells but buffing, debuffing and damage. Basically the game SHOULD be about combat and magic and shooting should affect the outcome of said combats by the amount of casualties you cause to each unit before combat. If this game was MEANT to be about shooting it'd be 40k.

I have tried heavens and shadow and 2.5k points. I am sticking with shadow. We are a combat army, and none of the other lores we have access to can go as far in helping to completely own this aspect of the game.

I had fun with heavens as it was nice to blast the mess out of stuff, especially when the game was the tower scenario. The reason I am sticking with shadow is because even though the lore did a lot of damage, it didn't seem to be enough an impact on the game itself. If my army had several war machines supported by more shooting, this could be devastating. I think it is the lore I would pick as bretonians with twin trebuchet making it rain pain before my support casters use the lore of beasts to make my guys bonkers in hand to hand. Sometimes I think of buildind a bretonia army with chaos knights. But I digress....

The lore of shadow is the probably the biggest reason I have yet to run a dragon at 2,500 points. I wish there was a way (other than the book of secrets) to get the lore of shadow so I could rock a combat lord on a dragon. And please don't tell me to play high elves because that disgust me personally. Oh well....

kkarnage069 wrote:
Magic shouldnt be about unit killing spells but buffing, debuffing and damage. Basically the game SHOULD be about combat and magic and shooting should affect the outcome of said combats by the amount of casualties you cause to each unit before combat. If this game was MEANT to be about shooting it'd be 40k.

But its not.. magic right now is all about ultimate spells. The problem with chain lightning is it has a 33% chance to be a high casting cost low range thunderbolt. Its only semi-useful if people have like 4 units bunched up. Its okay on level 2s but still a total waste on better units. Final transformation has a 33% chance to kill every model in a unit, thats pretty good. If they got a 30 man unit thats 10 dead

In addition metal has great buffs and debuffs which heavens well.. has some okay ones but nothing great

Again, dont put it on a level 4 considering the power of the better lores

kkarnage069 wrote:Lore attribute? Who cares!! Shadows lore attribute is useful vary rarely

I use it all the time. It's great swapping out my Sorc Lord with a nearby lone sorcerer before he nukes his own unit of warriors via miscast. And you know, sometimes I'd rather have my Exalted Hero take my Sorc Lord's place in a fight.....

Tzeentchling9 wrote:

kkarnage069 wrote:Lore attribute? Who cares!! Shadows lore attribute is useful vary rarely

I use it all the time. It's great swapping out my Sorc Lord with a nearby lone sorcerer before he nukes his own unit of warriors via miscast. .

I don't know why this has never occurred to me.....

I have been using Heavens on my level 4 recently to good effect.

Comet is a good 'mover' to put near shooting or defensive blocks to make them start walking or soften them up if they don't.

The Magic Missiles fill the role that is always there (which is lacking otherwise in WoC, apart from the Hellcannon).

Iceshard protects your guys and makes the units outside of Ld range rather vulnerable to the Hellcannon.

But the greatest thing is the re-rolls, or anti-rerolls:

Thing like Killing Blow are nasty against Knights and Warriors, and it takes the bite out of them.

Re-rolling your own dice works well with warriors and knights (re-rolling 1s with good saves could mean rerolling any fails for knights, or half your fails on warriors) and pushing up the numbers on casualties Marauder units cause.


Now Shadows is a great Lore, but I have been finding Heavens very synergistic with Warriors recently.

I have been using Heavens on my level 4 recently to good effect.

Comet is a good 'mover' to put near shooting or defensive blocks to make them start walking or soften them up if they don't.

The Magic Missiles fill the role that is always there (which is lacking otherwise in WoC, apart from the Hellcannon).

Iceshard protects your guys and makes the units outside of Ld range rather vulnerable to the Hellcannon.

But the greatest thing is the re-rolls, or anti-rerolls:

Thing like Killing Blow are nasty against Knights and Warriors, and it takes the bite out of them.

Re-rolling your own dice works well with warriors and knights (re-rolling 1s with good saves could mean rerolling any fails for knights, or half your fails on warriors) and pushing up the numbers on casualties Marauder units cause.


Now Shadows is a great Lore, but I have been finding Heavens very synergistic with Warriors recently.

FINALLY someone agrees. Synergy is a good word, i forgot about that one.
The only question i wanna ask now is whether or not Tzeentch is even worth it on a Lv4. A Lv2 can get both Flickering fire and Gateway most of the time, If not at least flickering fire and maybe pandemonium. Those chances increase with a spell familar. But is the +2 to cast, lord slotted points, and extra chance of getting said spells as well as a few useless ones worth it?

Tzeentch Lv4 is ok. You'll probably be able to cast all your good spells, thanks to low casting values.

Treason is good if there's not so much ItP but lots of large blocks.

The main advantage though, is the Mark (for the +1 and save) with a good Ward and the Disc, meaning you can position him well while a normal Wizard is horse or foot bound if you don't want to pay dearly for a large monster (which puts you out of price range in ~2k games).

Roar is fun to kill knights with.

The lore works well on a Lv2, and due to the mark and low casting values, can be a good supporting wizard. They can also take Roar.