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So as the title says, are eldar vypers worth using? If so what weapons combination would be most cost effective?

Thanks

Worth what?

I run two with scatter lasers because they are a cheap, mobile heavy weapon that if I lose doesn't effect much. If the bad guy ignores them, they will do something, typically fragging rhinos or getting side shots on other tanks.

They are as much a glass cannon as anything else in the Eldar books, maybe more so since they are open topped.

Just keep them at 30-36 inches away from the bad guy, always move them 12 inches and park them beside some form of terrain that will obscure their flank from enemy fire.

For their points and FO slot, I think they are great.

I could see them as being neat in a mechanized list. Your fire prisms move too slowly to get SMF (in order to shoot), but they have a couple of vypers moving back and forth in front of them which gives them cover (due to LOS block), while the cover itself has cover (due to SMF). Don't know if it would be worth it, but it would definitely be obnoxious to face off against.

I guess what else are you doing with your FA slots?

... plus, the models look cool.

If you can provide them cover, their biggest problem is reduced. I run scatter laser + shuriken cannon. The issue of course is that war walkers can do it about 10 pts cheaper with 2 scatter lasers. Your decision is cost, slots and the advantage of not being able to be pinned into enemy CC like a walker versus non-open topped and outflanking uses of walkers. The other decision point is that you can move vypers 12" and still fire one weapon or 24" with no fire while walkers are going to move 6".

For me the decision point is do you need to preserve your heavy slots for something else. If not take war walkers. If so vypers are viable as a good firesupport platform especially if you can get a farseer with guide to help them out.

A squadron of 3 is harder to kill than you'd think. There always seems to be one gimpy, disarmed, immobilized vyper left after the other two are dead.

A squadron of two is okay unless somebody dedicates a genuine multi-shot long-range weapon to killing them. Single vypers have basically no survivability at all.

Thanks everyone for the input again.

DAaddict wrote:
For me the decision point is do you need to preserve your heavy slots for something else. If not take war walkers. If so vypers are viable as a good firesupport platform especially if you can get a farseer with guide to help them out.

I've already used my heavy support choices for two wraithlords and a falcon. So taking vypers would be good idea if I can't take war walkers?

Also everyone, 3 squads of 3 vypers with scatter lasers and shuriken cannon can put out 63 str 6 shots a turn for 630pts.
Is this a good use of 630pts?

I modelled both of mine with bright lances long ago, however they are definatelty not worth it at the moment.

Twin shircannon however is a good horde-killer.

I just went 4-1 at a very competitive tourney playing my mechanized IG army with three units of 2 hydras.

The only game I lost was to mechanized eldar, and the only reason it wasn't a tie was because my opponent took 4 vypers and used them very well.

In a mechanized list, having more hulls is always better. Farseers can guide units of vypers, and single vypers also have a place.

double shuriken cannon is a very points efficient way to get lots of strength 6 shooting on a potentially speedy platform. A bright lance or EML allows the unit to move 12" a turn and stay a lot farther back for more of the game.

You've just got to see past that BS3. It is a deal breaker for many players (and i don't blame them) But either fortune, or just patient use of them can still see them being very useful to you.

I think Vypers are very much worth it. I like all three options of EML+ underslung Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon+underslung Shuriken Cannon and Scatter Laser+underslung Shuriken Cannon.

Something I've noticed about taking units of these is that every single person I've played against has under estimated their ability to kill as many models as they do.

My tactic for using them is simple. I always take a farseer and Eldrad(come on, who doesn't take Eldrad...he's the best force multiplier the Eldar have). I keep Eldrad in a Wave Serpent or a Falcon and I have him cast guide on two units of Vypers. Then I have the other farseer cast Doom on whatever unit I want dead. Then I have the Vypers go in and shoot all of their weapons from 20 to 24 inches away and watch the unit get very crippled or dead.

Move Eldrad with the Falcon or Wave serpent up to them for next turns rinse and repeat. Eldrad can keep up with them because he's in a tank, and they can move to where they need to be to react fast to any move my opponent does.

I was at a recent GT where my unit of 2 vypers (scatterlasers and shuriken cannons) survived all but one of the five rounds. One vyper was killed in all but one round, but they didn't have any support at all. In the one round where both were destroyed, it was a single volley from an AC/LC predator that took them both out.

War walkers with scatterlasers are unquestionably a better buy and more survivable. But if your heavy slots are already filled with warwalkers, falcons or fire prisms, they're the best way to get massed str6 shooting in the army.

Flavius Infernus wrote:
War walkers with scatterlasers are unquestionably a better buy and more survivable.

The Viper's are open topped but are otherwise the same as war walkers in respect to survivability aside from one point: Mobility. You move 12, away from the bad guys and still light them up, potentially denying their long range guns in their backfield return fire.

While they can't throw down the hail of lasers war walkers can, they are much more mobile and adaptable.

You are correct about FO manipulation though, something that makes certain units easy pick ups.

Shep wrote:You've just got to see past that BS3. It is a deal breaker for many players (and i don't blame them) But either fortune, or just patient use of them can still see them being very useful to you.

+1

Vypers are fragile, but can add important dakka to your army. Thier ability to shoot at the side of transports can really be helpful when cracking open tanks. Each SC has a ~15.62% to destroy AV 10 vehicles, making the overall effect from 2 SC better than a single MG within 6"!

If you can, keep them into separate FA choices, as one rifleman dread can shoot down up to 3 in one turn. Splitting them limits the amount you can lose to one round of firing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DAaddict wrote:If you can provide them cover, their biggest problem is reduced. I run scatter laser + shuriken cannon. The issue of course is that war walkers can do it about 10 pts cheaper with 2 scatter lasers. Your decision is cost, slots and the advantage of not being able to be pinned into enemy CC like a walker versus non-open topped and outflanking uses of walkers. The other decision point is that you can move vypers 12" and still fire one weapon or 24" with no fire while walkers are going to move 6".

Another key point. Walkers are great, but they move slowly. Vypers are quite fast and fit the mold of a mech'dar army very well.

I'll chime in and say I use vypers in my 2000 point list, but I don't like 'em!

What I mean is I'd always take plenty of troops, firedragons and HS before taking vypers. They're just not very good (BS3, AV10 open-topped) for their price. Comparing them to (all-round superior) SM landspeeders makes my blood boil. But I suppose they are the way to get real fire support in the fast attack category. Not bad shooting if you can get a farseer to guide them.

One note, I've been using them with 2xshuriken cannon, and decided it was taking them too close to the enemy, and restricting their movement to 6" a turn while firing. So now, I will take them with scatterlasers or EMLs, nothing else.

Thank you everyone for all of your very helpful feedback. It's very much appreciated.

So what would be the most cost efective weapon for the Vyper? The comments in the thread are leading me to believe that the scatter laser/shuriken cannnon, eml, scatter laser are the most effective weaopns.

Thanks again.

I would say Scatter Lasers and EML are the best. Scatter Laser for volume of fire, EML for pinning ability and medium armor tank hunting if you need it, but don't count on much of that if you do as BS 3 really hurts when you only have one shot that isn't twin linked. With the blast template though, it's not too bad.

For my latest 2500 eldar list I took this:

HQ:

Eldrad (goes in Falcon)

Elites:

5x Fire Dragons
1x Exarch w/ Tank Hunters, Crack Shot
Wave Serpent w/ TL Brightlance + underslung Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones

5x Fire Dragons
1x Exarch w/ Tank Hunters, Crack Shot
Wave Serpent w/ TL Brightlance + underslung Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones

5x Fire Dragons
1x Exarch w/ Tank Hunters, Crack Shot
Wave Serpent w/ TL Brightlance + underslung Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones

Troops:

10x Storm Guardians, w/ 2x flamers
1x Warlock w/ Destructor
Wave Serpent w/ TL Brightlance + underslung Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones

5x Dire Avengers (These guys go in a Falcon)

5x Rangers w/ pathfinder upgrade

Fast Attack:

2x Vyper Squadron w/ Scatter Laser + underslung Shuriken Cannon

2x Vyper Squadron w/ Scatter Laser + underslung Shuriken Cannon

2x Vyper Squadron w/ Scatter Laser + underslung Shuriken Cannon

Heavy Support:

3x War Walkers w/ Scatter Lasers

3x War Walkers w/ Scatter Lasers

Falcon w/ EML, Holo Fields, Spirit Stones, Star Engines (for late game objective grabs)

Master Melta wrote:
The Viper's are open topped but are otherwise the same as war walkers in respect to survivability aside from one point: Mobility.

I'm usually mobility's biggest advocate. But in this case, having tried both, I prefer war walkers. They get 8 shots instead of 7, all their shots range out to 36", and they get that for ten points less than the SC/SL vyper. There are often some hills or ruins just the right size/density to give war walkers cover on the table, so if they stand at the front edge they can often get cover while denying it to the enemy. The longer range and outflanking makes up for some of what they lack in mobility--nearly guaranteed side shots.

Having said that, vypers have the ability to elude assaults (people love to tarpit war walkers), and can interdict movement of other vehicles in a way that war walkers can't. But all things being equal, war walkers still pour out more firepower.

Lately my mech eldar lists have been taking two basic forms: one has maxed out war walkers and no vypers, the other has maxed out falcons and vypers.

Also I'm a big fan of the shuriken cannon upgrade on any skimmer that's carrying a scatterlaser. Nearly doubles the firepower for a fraction of the cost, and gets tremendous economy of scale when you're putting them on 6 or 10 vehicles across an army. Where else can you get 30 str6 shots for 100 points? Even if you only close to range for the shuriken cannon half the time (or only against certain enemies in all-comers lists) it's still worth it IMO.

Flavius Infernus wrote:
Also I'm a big fan of the shuriken cannon upgrade on any skimmer that's carrying a scatterlaser. Nearly doubles the firepower for a fraction of the cost, and gets tremendous economy of scale when you're putting them on 6 or 10 vehicles across an army. Where else can you get 30 str6 shots for 100 points? Even if you only close to range for the shuriken cannon half the time (or only against certain enemies in all-comers lists) it's still worth it IMO.

My problem with the shuriken cannon is that to use it, you have to move within 24" while moving at combat speed. It seems like when I did take that upgrade all over the place, I just wasn't shooting it half the time.

Vypers can fill gaps in the combat line - imagine the last Khorne Berzerker who refuses to die, but now you have one or two Vypers left to target him.
Moreover, they can contest objectives in the ''last'' turn.

My favorite armament is scatter laser plus shuricannon. Scatter lasers have the range to target enemy units far back in the enemy's deployment zone - for this, a Vyper often needs to move 12'' to be in range and then you can shoot only one weapon anyway. After closing in, the shuricannon complements well...

I often end up with a vyper or two in my list to round out my points...but mine tend to have EML(s). They simply then try and stay at extreme range and snipe, the possibility of a str8 or a str4 blast is nice too. They work fine againt armor or hordes.


Sliggoth

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:
Also I'm a big fan of the shuriken cannon upgrade on any skimmer that's carrying a scatterlaser. Nearly doubles the firepower for a fraction of the cost, and gets tremendous economy of scale when you're putting them on 6 or 10 vehicles across an army. Where else can you get 30 str6 shots for 100 points? Even if you only close to range for the shuriken cannon half the time (or only against certain enemies in all-comers lists) it's still worth it IMO.

My problem with the shuriken cannon is that to use it, you have to move within 24" while moving at combat speed. It seems like when I did take that upgrade all over the place, I just wasn't shooting it half the time.

Right, I shoot the shuriken cannon about half the time. Especially when the enemy is coming to me anyway, and I therefore don't need to move more than 6" or when the enemy is less mobile anyway and it's relatively safe to be within 24".

Even only shooting half the time, doubling your firepower for about a 15% increase in cost is worth it to me.

Yeah, I can understand the reasoning there. I guess I just like the freedom to move 12". And one of the things that seem to take my WS down so often is assaults, despite the 6s to hit, so I am a bit wary of getting close.

I have 6 and I run them all with Scatterlaser, that's it 180 points. Put them in reserves....I've shot the hell out of marines with them and Guide on them or shooting a Doomed unit....even better.

one thing is sure. It is difficult for them to really be worth their $30 price tag. Although the models are great.

Vypers are never worth taking, IMO.

If you have extra points to spend in a Mechdar force (after taking the standard Farseer, FD, DA, WS and filling your HS with Fire Prisms and War Walkers), there's still better things to take than Vypers. Either go with a seer council, or if you don't like that unit, go with Warp Spiders. They're better survivability than Vypers, and can put out even more S6 shots than a Vyper can.

The only reason you should ever consider the Vyper is if you're doing it solely for the fluff reasons.

Anarchyman99 wrote:I have 6 and I run them all with Scatterlaser, that's it 180 points. Put them in reserves....I've shot the hell out of marines with them and Guide on them or shooting a Doomed unit....even better.

Dude, that's 360 points. Hope that was a typing error or something, otherwise you owe some opponents an apology!

After another shocking performance in last night's match, I agree with Grakmar. I just dropped the 2 vypers from my 2000 point list. We'll see how their replacements (3 sets of holofields and a couple little upgrade changes) do.

I think I agree with Grakmar. They can put out some serious punch, but I tend to like Spiders much better. Plus, for whatever reason, it seems the spiders get overlooked and end up surprising my opponent with firepower much more often than Vypers (probably a "Crap it's a vehicle, it must be scary" mentality).

I can see them having their place though.

Warp spiders are a good comparison, they are in the fast slot, and specialize in strength 6. Their ability to move quickly and thus threaten to contest objectives is far less than that of the vyper, but as I feel that warp spiders are a strong unit, I'd be ok with that trade.

War walkers are not a good comparison at all. Apples and oranges. Many mech armies have three heavy slots filled with a combination of fire prisms and night spinners. War walkers have no speed beyond a possible alternate deployment, and don't synergize with speedy hull spamming mech lists. When they arrive, they expose themselves. I think they are best in a much more shooty army style that spams multiple threats rather than playing hide and seek. Great in footdar with warp spiders or in a hybrid mech army with warp spiders.

Seer councils are admittedly a strong unit, and are not FOC restricted. If you are taking a farseer (which you should be) then you'll have the slot open. This is a valid comparison as well. I feel like this unit is much better in that same aggressive, exposed style of play. Its a unit that doesn't need terrain to exist to be happy. Much safer if you aren't sure what the tables will be like at a tourney.

All long range shooty fragile vehicles come with major difficulties. They can not be used in an aggressive way. Most people correctly point out that a vehicle like a vyper or a land speeder typhoon are pretty disadvantaged in a kill points game. if you expose yourself to the entire enemy army to take one potential kill shot, and fail to kill something, then you are out your kill point and you'll never earn it back. Vehicles like this have to come with a strategy for LOS obstructing and for only fighting portions of the enemy army. If you want to table someone, don't take things like vypers, you just can't be that aggressive with them.

But they are very small, they can have very long range guns, and they can move VERY fast. You have to use its diminutive size to hide out of LOS to most of the 'comebacks' and you shouldn't commit to a close range shot unless you are confident that the area around it will be pretty well neutralized with its own shooting and the rest of your armies shooting.

And if your table doesn't have enough terrain, don't blame the vyper, just take warp spiders. They'll serve you much better on a terrain-light board.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:

Anarchyman99 wrote:I have 6 and I run them all with Scatterlaser, that's it 180 points. Put them in reserves....I've shot the hell out of marines with them and Guide on them or shooting a Doomed unit....even better.

Dude, that's 360 points. Hope that was a typing error or something, otherwise you owe some opponents an apology!

After another shocking performance in last night's match, I agree with Grakmar. I just dropped the 2 vypers from my 2000 point list. We'll see how their replacements (3 sets of holofields and a couple little upgrade changes) do.

Good catch! Vyper+Scatter Laser comes in at 60pts per model. That's the same as a War Walker with 2 Scatter Lasers (hence why you should take War Walkers over Vypers).

Warp Spiders do leave a bit to be desired in terms of transport popping, because their weapons are AP-. But, they can make up for that by deep striking to even more reliably getting safely at rear armor, and BS4 means much more hits than BS3.

You can also give this squad an Exarch, Powerblades, Withdraw and give them an Autarch with a generator and weapons as you prefer and you have a shockingly good CC unit!

Spot on Shep. I played an annihilation game last night. My opponents outflankers came on and simply blasted the vypers first, as they had the best chance of gaining a point that way.

And warp spiders are probably better that scatter laser vypers for their role. I mean, they can't move as fast flat out, and have less range, but equally they can try to hide after shooting, they put out more shots, can move just as far before firing. 3 warp spiders are probably harder for a lot of armies to kill than 1 vyper, and they don't suffer from the 1-shot sudden death danger, or from shaken/stunned results. Hell, if the models were newer I might consider buying some warp spiders.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not sure about using warp spiders as assaulters there Grakmar. That super-expensive exarch still doesn't have that many attacks, and both he and the autarch are limited to S3. If he catches a punch then the unit can't hit&run away either. I would try using warp spiders in small, pure shooting units instead, and use the assault jump to avoid being charged.

Agree that BS3 is a huge drawback for vypers. Once I shoot 2 scatter lasers, I end up with 4 hits usually. So against an AV11 vehicle I'm hoping for a pen, not expecting one. And against orks (last night's opponents) what exactly is my 120 pt unit doing for me? 3-4 dead boyz a turn, less in cover?

Love the idea and models of vypers, not sure about the rules. Maybe in the next codex they'll make them a 2-wound unit like SM attack bikes, (allowing them to be part of other jetbike squads) and leave the FA shooting to war walkers and/or these new FW hornets.

Yeah the look of the warp spider models is a pretty big sticking point.

Have you seen that dudes kit-bashed warp spiders in the color section of the hardcover rulebook?

If you wanted to spend a few extra bucks and could reverse engineer what he did, they look PERFECT. I don't know what page it is, but its in the hobby section and its the Alaitoc army.

The warp spiders appear to be made from the guardian box, with the warp jump generator and spinner rifle from the warp spiders kit. he has got them posed pretty dynamically, and the guardian heads look much less like a wad of silly putty, and the legs and torso don't look like they were sculpted out of french bread. I think the last bonus is that the warp jump generator looks absolutely giant on the guardian body as does the spinner rifle.

If you've got the time/money/aptitude, they are definitely some cool looking spiders.