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Made in gb
Twisted Trueborn with Blaster






Northern Ireland

Playing a game agains Tyranids in a few days.

I was thinking Sliscuss, lots of poisonned weapons, cronos with vortex, haemonculi and wracks, as many huskblades as possible and an array of other arcane weaponary, hex rifles and such like.

Ive only ever played tyranids once in my long life of wargaming and that was an appocolypse battle so Ive got little of a clue to what does what other than to judge by what size they are! lol. Obviously I have a general idea, but I'd like some advice from you friendly chaps if you have it on any 'must takes' or 'I definately wouldnt do that again' words of wisdom!

Cheersaroo.

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Made in us
Mysterious Techpriest





An Archon with a soultrap and huskblade will eat MCs alive. Add in a clone field and nine bloodbrides with shardnets and he's invincible in close combat against any single MC (three shardnets will cut any MC down to one attack, and the clone field will negate d3 (meaning a minimum of one) attacks aimed at the archon per assault phase, while the bloodbrides have a 4++ save in close combat, meaning it becomes literally impossible for the MC to touch the archon, and extremely difficult to touch the bloodbrides). He'll have something like a 50% chance per phase of IDing the MC, better if he's already downed one or two to pump up the soultrap.

Hex rifles aren't worth it: they're expensive, only inflict a wound 25% (33% for an Ancient Haemonculus) of the time, and being AP4 aren't going to bypass the Tyranid MC armor saves, dropping the numbers down to 8% (3+ save) or 4% (2+ save) (or 11% or 6% for an Ancient Haemonculus) (technically a little better, since in one third of wounding cases you'll have AP2 from rending (since it's a sniper weapon), but I don't feel like trying to factor that in right now, it's not like it adds too much anyways), and that's before the test against ID, which no MC will have worse than a 50% chance of passing (dropping the best case percentages down to 4%, 2%, 6%, and 3%, respectively). Contrast with a Huskblade Archon: he gets six attacks on the charge, with his WS7 2/3rds of those are hitting on average, one sixth of those will wound against T6 (or half, if you've already downed an IC/MC with that Archon, or five sixths if you've downed two, assuming the soul trap bonus is cumulative), and since it's a power weapon only the swarmlord will get a save, meaning that chance of ID works out to... 50% against anything with a WS less than 7 on the charge, 91% after one MC kill, thanks to the soultrap, 99% after two, subsequent phases it'll be 44%, 86%, and 98%. Against anything with a WS of 7 or more on the charge it'll be 40%, 82%, and 96%, subsequent phases it'll be 35%, 76%, and 93%, respectively. (And no, I didn't just do that by hand, I wrote a calculator a while back that churns out the chance of causing a certain number of wounds given the S, T, to hit, and saves (alternately, the percent per attack, and the number of attacks), though the calculations for more than one wound appear to faulty, (though it doesn't become significantly wrong until you get to higher numbers); it's reliable at one wound, though, more so than just dividing numbers of attacks by percents to hit and wound.)

Poisoned weapons laugh at MCs, razorwings with necrotoxin missiles will obliterate hordes and high-T infantry alike (and are pinning, though with synapse creatures that doesn't matter much), though even the default missiles are S6, so you're still wounding most things on a 2+ (just not the MCs). Of course, using razorwings requires either proxying or custom building them... The only times I've used them have been against Tyranids on Vassal, and both times they've obliterated entire flanks of the opposing army in single salvos.

You might well want to go with shootier against tyranids, because you'll either be facing hordes or large numbers of MCs, and while you can out assault the latter (with shardnet wyches, beastmasters, or an Archon Court), the former may pose trouble, especially for wracks.

Wracks... are really only good as survivable scoring units. They're too slow and have too few attacks to pose the same kind of threat as wyches against anything but MCs, whose saves become problematic with their smaller number of attacks and whose attacks ignore their FnP rolls.

As tough as it is, the Cronos is going to be eaten alive in melee by anything Tyranids can throw at it, and the vortex is mostly just a supporting move, not posing much of a threat against either hordes or MCs.


Forgot to mention: venoms with splinter cannons will chew up anything tyranids can field, and Night Shields shine really against almost every ranged antitank the Tyranids can field, especially the ever popular Hive Guard.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2011/02/06 16:22:37


 
   
Made in gb
Twisted Trueborn with Blaster






Northern Ireland

Full on!!

A bit Mathy for me, but its interesting and informative none the less. Your calculator idea sounds great, you should perfect it, turn it into a physical entity and make a buisness out of it! lol. Id buy one.

Some really good advice there that I'll look at, but for now, heres the list I stayed up too late writing last night.

Some things youve suggested completely go against it, but I often play fun or themed lists just for the sake of it.

Definately would be up for a bit of tweaking in this, but I actually have the models to field it too which makes me want to do it!

Think Ive got about 17 old wych models and a load of warriors and various bits and pieces on top of this, but Im limited on transports and vehicles. It wayland games would hurry up and post me out my order it would be good, but the second raider in this list is the one thats 'on its way', so itl be too late for me to get a 3rd one before this game on wednesday.

Cheers for your very indepth response!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/344831.page#2413136


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yea, forgot to say.

I dont understand the huskblade/soultrap combination.

Why do you need str10 if your using a poisonned weapon?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/06 14:16:45


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Made in us
Mysterious Techpriest





Huskblades aren't poisoned, they're power weapons that cause instant death on an unsaved wound. So an Archon (S3) against a Carnifex (T6) will be wounding on a 6, the Carnifex can't take an armor save, it can't get a FnP roll from Paroxysm, and so it gets instagibbed (and the Archon becomes S6 if he has a soultrap).

Some people swear by wracks, but I don't personally like them. Of course, one of the nice things about the DE codex is that theme lists are still quite viable; I've got a wych cult list (and only a wych cult list, since I haven't gotten around to picking up anything else yet).


The calculator is about a dozen lines (plus several dozen lines of test cases and alternative ways of running, including brute force dice rolling...) of script. I'd release the source if it wasn't so buggy, I could be bothered to write a proper interface that didn't involve a command line, and if I could be bothered to learn the latest version of the language it's written in (Python; I have the old 2.5 interpreter installed, and don't know what was changed for version 3). Of course, I'm sure someone else has had a similar idea, and released much better software for the purpose than I can pull together, but I've never bothered to look. More fun to write it myself, anyways.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/06 16:22:12


 
   
Made in us
Lethal Lhamean




Sir Pseudonymous wrote:An Archon with a soultrap and huskblade will eat MCs alive. Add in a clone field and nine bloodbrides with shardnets and he's invincible in close combat against any single MC (three shardnets will cut any MC down to one attack, and the clone field will negate d3 (meaning a minimum of one) attacks aimed at the archon per assault phase, while the bloodbrides have a 4++ save in close combat, meaning it becomes literally impossible for the MC to touch the archon, and extremely difficult to touch the bloodbrides). He'll have something like a 50% chance per phase of IDing the MC, better if he's already downed one or two to pump up the soultrap.


Just a quick correction. The Clonefield ignores d3 HITS, not attacks. This is a very important distinction. The rule does specify that you must select the hits to nullify before they roll "to wound," however, so you can't wait to see if the attack wounds before negating the hit. That being said, I have been advocating this build as a retinue for the Archon for a couple of months now, since before Christmas. The Wed before Christmas I had a game against Tyranids where I used this unit combination. On turn three, I one-shotted a Trygon with the Archon (you only need one "6" to wound). My opponent decided to call it at that point, as my Archon squad was in position to hop scotch through a Tyrant, a warrior brood, and a Tervigon in the next couple of turns after soultrapping up to S6.

Against Tyranids, I'd also like to suggest the Razorwing Jetfighter. Upgrade it to have a Splinter Cannon and two Disintegrator Cannons. You can pick one unit you want to die on first turn, and unload 4 large blast templates (of your choice), 6 poisoned 4+ AP5 shots, and 6 S5 AP3 shots at that unit. It's good for pruning back those pesky Hive Guard units before they can get into range of your fragile vehicles.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/06 16:47:20


 
   
Made in us
Mysterious Techpriest





Saldiven wrote:
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:An Archon with a soultrap and huskblade will eat MCs alive. Add in a clone field and nine bloodbrides with shardnets and he's invincible in close combat against any single MC (three shardnets will cut any MC down to one attack, and the clone field will negate d3 (meaning a minimum of one) attacks aimed at the archon per assault phase, while the bloodbrides have a 4++ save in close combat, meaning it becomes literally impossible for the MC to touch the archon, and extremely difficult to touch the bloodbrides). He'll have something like a 50% chance per phase of IDing the MC, better if he's already downed one or two to pump up the soultrap.


Just a quick correction. The Clonefield ignores d3 HITS, not attacks. This is a very important distinction. The rule does specify that you must select the hits to nullify before they roll "to wound," however, so you can't wait to see if the attack wounds before negating the hit.

Yep. Though it's not too important a distinction in this particular case, since the idea is to reduce the number of possible attacks down to the minimum number of hits that can be negated, and any hit that doesn't get negated has a very good chance of killing the Archon outright (S6-9, as the case may be, from a MC, so wounds on 2+ and ignores armor saves). It gets a bit riskier when you're facing multiple enemies and you can't wrap them up in shardnets, like a Tyrant with a few Tyrant Guard.

That being said, I have been advocating this build as a retinue for the Archon for a couple of months now, since before Christmas. The Wed before Christmas I had a game against Tyranids where I used this unit combination. On turn three, I one-shotted a Trygon with the Archon (you only need one "6" to wound). My opponent decided to call it at that point, as my Archon squad was in position to hop scotch through a Tyrant, a warrior brood, and a Tervigon in the next couple of turns after soultrapping up to S6.

I've never used it myself, since it's only really good against small multiwound units, which aren't too common in most armies, and it's quite expensive, but it is absurdly good at chewing up MCs. I wouldn't put it in an all-comers list, but if I knew I was facing Tyranids or Eldar with an Avatar or Wraithlords (or Dark Eldar with one of their two MCs)?

Against Tyranids, I'd also like to suggest the Razorwing Jetfighter. Upgrade it to have a Splinter Cannon and two Disintegrator Cannons. You can pick one unit you want to die on first turn, and unload 4 large blast templates (of your choice), 6 poisoned 4+ AP5 shots, and 6 S5 AP3 shots at that unit. It's good for pruning back those pesky Hive Guard units before they can get into range of your fragile vehicles.

A Razorwing is perfect long-range anti-horde, which nothing else in the DE codex can do. That, I think, has a place in most lists (or would if they got the model out already ), not just against Tyranids. It has applications against most other armies, providing both crazy anti-infantry power and anti-armor (if one leaves on the Dark Lances). A missile alpha-strike can obliterate an absurd amount of infantry, especially if they're in a horde, and then the Razorwing becomes an almost-as-good Ravager to hunt tanks.

 
   
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander





Manhatten, KS

I commented on the list you build. You need atleast 2 troop choices for the list to be legal. I would recommend the duke and 20 warriors. That is 3+ to hit and 3+ to wound on anything period. I would also recommend a sqd of warriors in a raider that has splinter racks. This allows them to TL their rifles. Although the splinter cannons dont recieve any of these bonuses they are still nice with 36" range and assault 4 or heavy 6 with 4+ poison.

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Made in gb
Twisted Trueborn with Blaster






Northern Ireland

I cant believe that about the Huskblade... Seriously shocked!

I misread it and was convinced that it was a combination of an agoniser and a fleshgauntlet since I first got the codex!

I have lost so much faith in it now. Its amazing how we can accept were wrong when we see something in hard fact that we have previously been convinced was entirely otherwise, yet in other areas of life, some people continue to be stubborn..

Anyway, sorry about that.

On that note, it would nearly be better to take venom blades that will wound on a 2+, and yes, they will get their 3+ armour save or whatever, but 3s then 2s with 3+ save is probably better than 3s then 6s with no save is it? To angry for maths at the moment lol.

I really like the idea of the Razorwing, but I dont want to buy the outdated forgeworld model, and I dont have the time or money to self construct it yet. Shatterfield missiles all the way!

Any news on when this '2nd wave' is comming?




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Made in us
Mysterious Techpriest





Tomb King wrote: I commented on the list you build. You need atleast 2 troop choices for the list to be legal. I would recommend the duke and 20 warriors. That is 3+ to hit and 3+ to wound on anything period. I would also recommend a sqd of warriors in a raider that has splinter racks. This allows them to TL their rifles. Although the splinter cannons dont recieve any of these bonuses they are still nice with 36" range and assault 4 or heavy 6 with 4+ poison.

Wracks are troop choices in an army that contains Haemonculi, just like Hellions are troop choices in an army with Baron Sathonyx.

Newt-Of-Death wrote:I cant believe that about the Huskblade... Seriously shocked!

I misread it and was convinced that it was a combination of an agoniser and a fleshgauntlet since I first got the codex!

I have lost so much faith in it now. Its amazing how we can accept were wrong when we see something in hard fact that we have previously been convinced was entirely otherwise, yet in other areas of life, some people continue to be stubborn..

Anyway, sorry about that.

On that note, it would nearly be better to take venom blades that will wound on a 2+, and yes, they will get their 3+ armour save or whatever, but 3s then 2s with 3+ save is probably better than 3s then 6s with no save is it? To angry for maths at the moment lol.

I really like the idea of the Razorwing, but I dont want to buy the outdated forgeworld model, and I dont have the time or money to self construct it yet. Shatterfield missiles all the way!

Any news on when this '2nd wave' is comming?

The thing about the huskblade is it only needs to cause one wound to instagib any MC the tyranids can take (since the only thing with Eternal Warrior they have is the IC Warrior). A venom blade has a higher chance of causing a wound, but since they have multiple wounds, it has a lower chance of killing it. A huskblade has, at worst, a 50% chance (if it's in the hands of an Archon, that is) of killing any MC they have other than a Tyrant or Swarmlord on the assault, and is practically assured of killing anything but the Swarmlord within two phases. It is much cheaper, though, so if you're spamming them you might come out on top if you can get all of them into melee with the same target.

Hmm... Actually, it would seem that an Ancient Haemonculus with a venom blade and nine wracks would theoretically do as much damage to an MC as a huskblade Archon would...

I've heard March or thereabouts, but I don't know how reliable that is.

 
   
Made in us
Lethal Lhamean




[quote=Sir Pseudonymous
That being said, I have been advocating this build as a retinue for the Archon for a couple of months now, since before Christmas. The Wed before Christmas I had a game against Tyranids where I used this unit combination. On turn three, I one-shotted a Trygon with the Archon (you only need one "6" to wound). My opponent decided to call it at that point, as my Archon squad was in position to hop scotch through a Tyrant, a warrior brood, and a Tervigon in the next couple of turns after soultrapping up to S6.

I've never used it myself, since it's only really good against small multiwound units, which aren't too common in most armies, and it's quite expensive, but it is absurdly good at chewing up MCs. I wouldn't put it in an all-comers list, but if I knew I was facing Tyranids or Eldar with an Avatar or Wraithlords (or Dark Eldar with one of their two MCs)?


You know, that's exactly what I've been saying about Shardnets for the longest time! This combination is the ONLY place that I use the 'Nets, and the only reason I do is to ensure that my Archon stays alive. I get plenty enough wounds from the Archon and the Syren (plus the 24-32 attacks from the Bloodbrides) that I don't really need the increased offensive capacity of the Hydraguantlets or Razorflails.

But to give you an idea, if you get assaulted by something nasty, like a Trygon or a tooled out SW TW Lord, the distinction between ignored hits and ignored attacks is more significant. If you can reduce your opponent down to fewer than 4 attacks, odds are highly likely that the opponent won't even bother allocating attacks on the Archon because he won't know how many 4+ to hit rolls he'll make. I'm sure other people will have differing views about this unit, but it has worked pretty well for me so far.
   
Made in gb
Twisted Trueborn with Blaster






Northern Ireland

Yea, I think I'll go for an archon with warriors (wyches are a better choice but dont make as much fluffical sense). And 3 haemonculi. Sliscus would be brilliant, but I dont know if its worth it, loosing out in the 3 extra husk blades, unless I go for Sliscus and 3 haemonculi, but then I dont get the archon with the husk, tho I get the nasty venom of Sliscus and his semi powerweapon plus much else. Yes I think I'll do that.

As far as an acothyst goes; Sissorhand or Agoniser? Or flesh gauntlett.

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Made in us
Lethal Lhamean




Let us know how it goes.

Also, try to get a candid photo of your opponent's face the first time you one-shot a TMC with a Huskblade. It should be something you'll want to remember
   
Made in us
Moustache-twirling Princeps





Beijing, China

Newt-Of-Death wrote:
As far as an acothyst goes; Sissorhand or Agoniser? Or flesh gauntlett.

because of a current rules error never give your acothyst any special weapons as he will end up losing an attack. Base he has 2 posioned weapons for +1 attack. When you give him wargear he ends up wielding the special weapon and a posioned weapon(2 special weapons) and doesnt get +1 attack.

Best to spend those points elsewhere.

As stated Night shields are great on vehicles against anything with less than IG range.
I also would consider chain snares. for 5 points you can inflict D3+1 str 4 hits on EVERY unit they pass over, which can be great against hordes.

An Archon court might be nice for its versitility(shooty, flamey, CCy). it doesnt say that the archon has to stay with them, he can run off and join a squad of wyches if he likes.

Other than the husk+soultrap archon I would keep most of my characters cheap with venom blades and let them have their armor saves.

Shooty units of 5 trueborn with 2 SC in a venom with 2 SC and a night shield should fill at least 2 of your elite choices. 155 points that can spit out 24 shots at 36". 16 hit, 8 wound with little that can touch them.

Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
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Mysterious Techpriest





You could theoretically give your Acothyst the liquifier you can take for every five models, then take the scissorhand (which is poisoned(3+) get +1 attack). Then, you don't lose out on any attacks, and have a slightly upgraded Acothyst. Of course, I sincerely doubt it's worth the points you spend, so I would just not take an acothyst at all, at least if you're running them with a haemonculus. On their own, maybe the +1 to leadership is worth it.

 
   
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Twisted Trueborn with Blaster






Northern Ireland

I like the idea of getting the extra liquifier or agonizer or sissorhand or whatever, but now because of the attack thing I see the reason why some would for go.

Shooty trueborn in a venom is damn brilliant! Yea, 2 SC and the extra cannon on the venom is one of the best. I like taking 4 blasters and a kitted up dracon too, but Ive always been one for the over expendature of points!

Theyre quite handy as a 5man team with 2 DL hanging back, or 3 man team with 2 DL in a raider.

Never tried the court of the archon, nor given them much thought other than a bit of a read. Probably mainly cuz theyres no models, and Im just not getting excited by them. Whats the best option with them, or has anyone tried them out? What models did you use?

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Moustache-twirling Princeps





Beijing, China

Newt-Of-Death wrote:I like the idea of getting the extra liquifier or agonizer or sissorhand or whatever, but now because of the attack thing I see the reason why some would for go.

Shooty trueborn in a venom is damn brilliant! Yea, 2 SC and the extra cannon on the venom is one of the best. I like taking 4 blasters and a kitted up dracon too, but Ive always been one for the over expendature of points!

Theyre quite handy as a 5man team with 2 DL hanging back, or 3 man team with 2 DL in a raider.

Never tried the court of the archon, nor given them much thought other than a bit of a read. Probably mainly cuz theyres no models, and Im just not getting excited by them. Whats the best option with them, or has anyone tried them out? What models did you use?


back when blaster spam was possible shredders were overpriced. I would like to give some though to a 4 shredder unit of trueborn against orks and 'nids. 4 BS 4 Str 6 templates can eat some horde. A minimum unit size of 5 models with 4 shredders is only 80 points...

Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++  
   
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Twisted Trueborn with Blaster






Northern Ireland

hmmm. I used to love shredders, then I stopped using them just because of my luck with scatter dice. Might try that tho. You could take 4 trueborn and it would be even cheaper!

133 with a Venom and extra cannon.

p.s.

My Wayland Games order is despatched!!! Raider and a box O' Warriors.

Lets see if it gets here by tomorrow afternoon!

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