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So I have been reading through a bunch of these fan codexs on this page and noticed that a lot of people want rending on their races guns. I dont think these people have really thought this over or math hammered it. I dont think it would fly.
The Eldar list claims it wants all shurkien weapons to have rending and increased range. They also want a point decrease for Guardians.
The Necron list also lists they want all Gauss weapons to have rending, instead of their normal glancing rules.


Math hammer out 18 hits against some MeQ (obviously it takes more BS3 shots to get as many as BS4) Currently thats 3 dead marines from a shuirken catapult or a guass flayer.
Rending would make that 5 dead marines. 66% more effective.
Now Terminators. 12hits this time. Currently thats 1 dead terminator. Adding in rending would double that to 2 dead terminators. 100% more effective. DOUBLE!

Now lets think about vehicles. 18 hits will give us 3 glances against AV 10 for shuirkens or any AV for Crons. Rending would make 18hits into 3 penetrates Against AV10, 2 Pen-1Glance for AV 11, a glance and a pen against AV12, and a glance against AV13. With this kind of rule for basic cheap guns, your army becomes the NO TANKS army, only land raiders and monoliths would be able to withstand this kind of punishment longer than 1 turn of shooting.


With this kind of increase in kill power, the points have got to go up. WAY up. Especially considering how many players play MeQ. Sure DE got their splinter weapons to own 'nids, but there are not that many 'nids out there to complain. Its one army compared to more than half the player base.

I dont mean to limit creativity, im just adding in this post to help people craft better ideas. Adding rending to a unit, especially a basic unit, will dramatically increase it effectiveness and thus cost. You will end up with a significantly more expensive unit that is absolutely no better against GeQ

Yeah....but rending only comes into it if you roll a 6 to wound/pen.

I can't comment on Eldar stuff as i have no idea about any of it. But i can see Rednign on 'Cron stuff as being do-able.

Another suggestion i have seen is tweak it so Gauss glancing hits roll at -1 on the damage table rather than -2. but that still mean that 'Crons only have 2 guns that can pen a LR, and only 3 weapons in total! (Warscythe). Harsh.

Exergy wrote:The Eldar list claims it wants all shurkien weapons to have rending and increased range. They also want a point decrease for Guardians.

Hate to nit-pick, but we've got a fairly comprehensive couple of threads (the first got too large!) where several suggestions are hashed and rehashed. "They" don't want "and". "They" want the combination which best suits the army feel and fluff.

In fact, most of the regular contributers to the huge thread would agree that reduced point cost on Guardians is not desirable.

Also;
10 Guardians (minimum squad) would on average roll 10 hits, with 5 wounds and 1,67 deaths to a Marine squad at 12" range. With rending this comes down to 3,33 normal wounds and 1,67 rending wounds - i.e. 2,77 deaths.

Yes, it's a fairly potent increase, but put into perspective respective costs, effective operating distances, etc and you'll soon come to the realization: 80 points for current 10 Guardians is a very steep price to pay. Which way is the correct way to increase their worth is a different matter, but your basic assumption is that "these units should be ineffective against MEQ and TEQ".

Either or not and except other people.

I also tend to not like Math Hammer against rending weapons just on the sole fact at how easy it is to get into cover for most of an army (not including tanks). Although I think that it would hurt terminators the most because of losing the 2+ save, most of the time your going from a 3+ to a 4+ at worst and its really not that game changing.

Edit: Not really a fight to give basic troops rending though. As like others have said, it gives them too many options and takes the fun out of specilized choices in the codex. It would make things more boring if anything

Mahtamori wrote:
Hate to nit-pick, but we've got a fairly comprehensive couple of threads (the first got too large!) where several suggestions are hashed and rehashed. "They" don't want "and". "They" want the combination which best suits the army feel and fluff.
In fact, most of the regular contributers to the huge thread would agree that reduced point cost on Guardians is not desirable.

I was reading "Ideas for the next Eldar Codices - MkII" first page billed as the consensus. Universal rending on shurkiens and increased range and decreased cost on guardians. The use of the word OR is what I might be looking for. I k,now its hard to put in such a large thread, but I dont think there is any way to accommodate all three.

Mahtamori wrote:
put into perspective respective costs, effective operating distances, etc and you'll soon come to the realization: 80 points for current 10 Guardians is a very steep price to pay. Which way is the correct way to increase their worth is a different matter, but your basic assumption is that "these units should be ineffective against MEQ and TEQ".

I agree, 8 points a model is way to much for Guardians as they are now. They either need to be buffed or cost less. They can even be good against MeQ and TeQ for all I care. But by adding rending a 10man squad of guardians + shurkien cannon becomes effective against GeQ, MeQ, TeQ, light armor and heavy armor in shooting. I do believe that a basic troop units should have some weaknesses. They cant be good against everything or why take anything else.

I welcome the discussion, I merely wanted to point out how powerful a rule like rending can be.

if a weapon with a range of 18" is shooting at a tank the tank likely won't have any cover.


Rending is a powerful rule.

it would allow a Shuricat to pop a Falcon, a Dreadnought, glance AV13.


NONE of the fluff has Shurican weapons popping these things.



if anything, give the Shurican weapon AP4.

Exergy wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:
Hate to nit-pick, but we've got a fairly comprehensive couple of threads (the first got too large!) where several suggestions are hashed and rehashed. "They" don't want "and". "They" want the combination which best suits the army feel and fluff.
In fact, most of the regular contributers to the huge thread would agree that reduced point cost on Guardians is not desirable.

I was reading "Ideas for the next Eldar Codices - MkII" first page billed as the consensus. Universal rending on shurkiens and increased range and decreased cost on guardians. The use of the word OR is what I might be looking for. I k,now its hard to put in such a large thread, but I dont think there is any way to accommodate all three.

I must admit I haven't read the first page in a long long time, but those three would stick the Guardians down at an estimated 10 points per model, given recent codices influx of ridiculousness - with 5+ they're still squishy as hell.

Edit: ah, the first page is mostly a copy of my compilation of suggestions from thread #1. Read them as AND/OR between each new line. The suggestions are all individual and not meant to be read as a compilation - some of them are even mutually exclusive of each other!

Mahtamori wrote:
I must admit I haven't read the first page in a long long time, but those three would stick the Guardians down at an estimated 10 points per model, given recent codices influx of ridiculousness - with 5+ they're still squishy as hell.
Edit: ah, the first page is mostly a copy of my compilation of suggestions from thread #1. Read them as AND/OR between each new line. The suggestions are all individual and not meant to be read as a compilation - some of them are even mutually exclusive of each other!

Thinking constructively. I think a Str3 AP- Rending weapon might be where to start. Shurkien Cannons would either be Str3 or Str4 AP- as well with a higher ROF.
compared to Str4 AP5
Its considerably less effective against GeQ.
Still more effective against MeQ and TeQ although not as dramatically.
Its considerably better against vehicles, but can only glance AV12 and its glances and pens are less damaging.
Its considerably better against MC. About the same level as DE splinter weapons for MC with 3+ saves.

Something else in the army list would have to take up the anti GeQ banner but overall I think something like this could work.

Speaking of fluff though. I cant think of any reason a shurkien would have rending. If anything it should be less effective against armor.

Personally I'm in favor of making Gauss into Melta weapons, not changing the stats necessarily, but that would bring them in line with the fluff and back to being effective against vehicles, without seriously changing their effectiveness against units on foot.

On the rending. I'm not as worried about it. Yes, it means that someone isn't going to get an armor save. And I feel sorry for your Terminator for not getting his armor save. Well, not really. Not since he was riding to battle in that Land Raider. And he's going to ignore 5/6 of the other wounds, has a back up invulnerable save, and can stand in cover for an additional save, just like everyone else. Marines in their rhinos, guard in their chimera, shooting out but being immune to small arms fire, rending doesn't seem that bad. Means that when we do finally get you out of your vehicle, we can not have to waist 2-3 rounds trying to get rid of what was inside in addition. I'll agree rending is too OP when transports stop being a neccessity in everyones army.

Exergy wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:
I must admit I haven't read the first page in a long long time, but those three would stick the Guardians down at an estimated 10 points per model, given recent codices influx of ridiculousness - with 5+ they're still squishy as hell.
Edit: ah, the first page is mostly a copy of my compilation of suggestions from thread #1. Read them as AND/OR between each new line. The suggestions are all individual and not meant to be read as a compilation - some of them are even mutually exclusive of each other!

Thinking constructively. I think a Str3 AP- Rending weapon might be where to start. Shurkien Cannons would either be Str3 or Str4 AP- as well with a higher ROF.
compared to Str4 AP5
Its considerably less effective against GeQ.
Still more effective against MeQ and TeQ although not as dramatically.
Its considerably better against vehicles, but can only glance AV12 and its glances and pens are less damaging.
Its considerably better against MC. About the same level as DE splinter weapons for MC with 3+ saves.

Something else in the army list would have to take up the anti GeQ banner but overall I think something like this could work.

Speaking of fluff though. I cant think of any reason a shurkien would have rending. If anything it should be less effective against armor.

'
The other night I was toying with S2 Ap5 Assault 4 Rending. Less effective against vehicles, evenly effective against light infantry, evenly effective against MEQ, more effective against TEQ, more effective against MCs. Would also have as a side effect that the weapons a) follow fluff better (extreme rate of fire) and b) forces you to buy more dice and c) makes Shuriken Cannons become defensive weapons.

I believe the current stats for Shuriken weapons follows the reasoning "well, rolling that many dice is silly, let's just compound it to stronger and fewer dice rolls". Rending makes sense in a way, considering what the shurikens do is shower you in razor sharp blades which whittle away flesh and armour. What the weapons are not is armour piercing.

Problem with low S rending is that you quickly get results where you either cant touch the target except for the rending wounds, at which point you shred armor. There's no middle ground. At that point your changing up how the shooting/wounding works, to the detriment of the high T good armor targets. You're no longer overcoming their toughness through the weapons S, and your bypassing it's ability to stave off wounds.

Consider shots at S2 rending against a trygon. Can't wound because it's just not in the chart. Unless you roll a 6, where not only are you wounding, but your ignoring it's armor save. Maybe on a sniper rifle (though there shouldn't necessarily be squads of them). But not in mass fire on a squad.

dancingcricket wrote:Problem with low S rending is that you quickly get results where you either cant touch the target except for the rending wounds, at which point you shred armor. There's no middle ground. At that point your changing up how the shooting/wounding works, to the detriment of the high T good armor targets. You're no longer overcoming their toughness through the weapons S, and your bypassing it's ability to stave off wounds.

Yeah I have been looking at it more and have to agree. Rending just does not belong on a basic trooper.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
My calculations were of different weapons, math hammer style one shot each against Meq Oeq(Ork) Geq Aeq(aspect warriro) Teq and MC I was surprised how well the current shurkien catapult did to be honest. Monsterous creatures were T6, 3+
out of 36 hits this is the number of dead
S Ap Meq Oeq Geq Aeq Teq MC
4 5 6 18 24 12 3 2 Bolter
4 6 6 18 16 12 3 2 Shoota
4 5 6 18 24 12 3 2 Shurkien
3 - 4 10 12 9 2 2 Lasgun
* 5 6 18 18 12 3 6 Splinter Rifle
3 3 12 12 18 18 2 6 Hellgun
5 5 8 24 30 15 4 4 Pulse
2 - 6 6 10 9 4 6 Rending
3 - 8 11 14 12 5 6 Lasgun with Rending
4 5 10 16 24 15 6 6 Shuirken Cat with Rending
5 - 8 20 24 15 4 4 Option1
* - 8 20 16 8 4 8 Option2

*Splinter weapons wound on 4+ Option 2 wounds on 3+

After looking this over, wow shurkien weapons are pretty good, being just like bolters per hit. rending is skewed, Str4 rending is clearly overpower the way it drops marines, terminators, monstrous creatures and still does a good job against Geq. The only thing close to rending is the Hell Gun, which doesnt do terminators or a very good job against Geq and look how expensive storm troopers are! 16points for Guardsmen! Even low strength rending is a wee bit overpowerd although Str 2 and 3 do lasgun like jobs against Geq. The real problem with rending is when it comes to vehicles. Str 4 Rending can penetrate AV12. 6 Str 4 rending shots are better than a missile launcher at killing light armor. Thats 3 shuirken catapults > missile launcer.

To round it out I added in some ideas. Option one is strength 5 with no armour pierce. Its somewhere between other eldar monofiliment and tau pulse rifles. I think it best fits the fluff. Warp spiders might become a little redudent but they can be changed later.
The other option is 3+ posion. I was thinking how DE now have posion and it would make the eldar in general themed. The fluff mentions how DE like to leave their enemy writheing in agony, so they delibretly go for pain rather than kill with their posions. Well I would imagine the CWE would go for killing and thus wound 3+. This would also pair well with the shorter range of cataputs. I think both of them are unique, better than the current Str4 AP5 and less OP than any form of rending

Yeah, Shuriken Weapons are good, but not on T3 Sv5+ infantry at 8 points per model.

Now, take a Guardian. Then take a Marine. Have them borrow each others weapons. Suddenly both are better!

It's a case of the wrong unit having the wrong weapon. It's an assault (ignore WH terminology) weapon for a unit that shouldn't assault. The rest of the unit is not designed to effectively use this sort of weapon.
It's like sticking a power weapon in the hands of a Devastator squad (no one doubts a power weapon is good for a Chapter Master).

Improving the fire power of a short range weapon so that it becomes devastating, when the squad itself is on the weak side makes for a unit that can claim to be interestingly designed (high cost, high risk, high reward potential).
The other way to design the Guardians is to change their weapons completely. Lasblasters (their current incarnation) would make the best possible weapons for them in the current codex (short of Long Rifles or Reaper Launchers).

Edit: come think of it, that'd make them different from most of the aspect warriors and work best with the heavy weapons, so having a long ranged weapon with relatively low strength is probably the best way to go for them.

Mahtamori wrote:
Now, take a Guardian. Then take a Marine. Have them borrow each others weapons. Suddenly both are better!
It's a case of the wrong unit having the wrong weapon. It's an assault (ignore WH terminology) weapon for a unit that shouldn't assault. The rest of the unit is not designed to effectively use this sort of weapon.
It's like sticking a power weapon in the hands of a Devastator squad (no one doubts a power weapon is good for a Chapter Master).
Improving the fire power of a short range weapon so that it becomes devastating, when the squad itself is on the weak side makes for a unit that can claim to be interestingly designed (high cost, high risk, high reward potential).
The other way to design the Guardians is to change their weapons completely. Lasblasters (their current incarnation) would make the best possible weapons for them in the current codex (short of Long Rifles or Reaper Launchers).

The issue with making shuriken catapults have universal rules is that so many other Eldar units also carry shuriken weaponry. Universal rending on shurkien weapons suddenly gives howling banshees, striking scorpians, harlequins, warlocks, and rangers the best pistol in the game. It effects jetbikes, vypers, falcons, and the list just keeps going on.

If guardians need fixing, and they do, either take the shuriken catapult out of their hands (people would hate having to buy new models) or fix them in another way(lower points or special rules).

I've seen these propositions for rending on both the Necron and Eldar fandex drafts. Personally I feel it is necessary and perhaps overkill for eldar, but i think it makes sense for necrons.
Fluff wise necrons have to most advanced technology in the galaxy by quite a wide margin and so if anyone deserves it on their guns it is certainly them. Game play wise, I don't think its a ridiculous effect.
For one thing, crons have no special weapons and so have no real means of dealing with AV. With rending people wont be able to roll up with their rhinos or vindicators with impunity. Yeah it improves their damage against foes with good armor values, but its only a 1 in 6 chance and again they cant get plasma guns or other similar weapon to do the job otherwise

Exergy wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:
Now, take a Guardian. Then take a Marine. Have them borrow each others weapons. Suddenly both are better!
It's a case of the wrong unit having the wrong weapon. It's an assault (ignore WH terminology) weapon for a unit that shouldn't assault. The rest of the unit is not designed to effectively use this sort of weapon.
It's like sticking a power weapon in the hands of a Devastator squad (no one doubts a power weapon is good for a Chapter Master).
Improving the fire power of a short range weapon so that it becomes devastating, when the squad itself is on the weak side makes for a unit that can claim to be interestingly designed (high cost, high risk, high reward potential).
The other way to design the Guardians is to change their weapons completely. Lasblasters (their current incarnation) would make the best possible weapons for them in the current codex (short of Long Rifles or Reaper Launchers).

The issue with making shuriken catapults have universal rules is that so many other Eldar units also carry shuriken weaponry. Universal rending on shurkien weapons suddenly gives howling banshees, striking scorpians, harlequins, warlocks, and rangers the best pistol in the game. It effects jetbikes, vypers, falcons, and the list just keeps going on.

If guardians need fixing, and they do, either take the shuriken catapult out of their hands (people would hate having to buy new models) or fix them in another way(lower points or special rules).

I'd personally rate the Fusion Pistol (Harlequins) to be better. I'd also argue that a small arms pistol wouldn't necessarily have the same power as an assault rifle.

Jetbikes need something as well. They have the chassi to make them good, but their armament is only good on one out of three. The thing with Jetbikes, though, is that with their JSJ they do have a small range advantage that Guardians lack which makes them a pain in the behind while Guardians simply becomes food for Khorne. The current defensive weapons on Eldar vehicles are negligible, again more due to range and possibly also to lack of them, but there simply is no reward for getting that close unless your cargo warrants it.
I'm just glad you didn't write Wraithlord, 'cause even with rending I'd still take flamers.

But, yes, the general conclusion I tend to return to is more or less the same. I just don't think rending is such a horrible alternative, only that there are better alternatives.

P.S. Just make the new models use Lasblasters (under a new name, by Cegorach I hate that name!) and have the option to arm them with Shuriken Catapults. Up the basic range on the catapults to match Dire Avengers, and up the price for upgrading Guardians to it so that it's a "fluffy alternative"
Say a Guardian Defender uses Lasblaster, is more focused on pushing out heavy weapons, and has improved armour save. Costs 8 points. Change it to a Catapult and you pay 9 points per model. Change it to a Dire Avenger and you pay 10 points per model for a model with better BS, WS, LD, Init, and an Exarch which complements the unit in a completely different way.

Mahtamori wrote:
I'd personally rate the Fusion Pistol (Harlequins) to be better. I'd also argue that a small arms pistol wouldn't necessarily have the same power as an assault rifle.

Jetbikes need something as well. They have the chassi to make them good, but their armament is only good on one out of three. The thing with Jetbikes, though, is that with their JSJ they do have a small range advantage that Guardians lack which makes them a pain in the behind while Guardians simply becomes food for Khorne. The current defensive weapons on Eldar vehicles are negligible, again more due to range and possibly also to lack of them, but there simply is no reward for getting that close unless your cargo warrants it.
I'm just glad you didn't write Wraithlord, 'cause even with rending I'd still take flamers.

P.S. Just make the new models use Lasblasters (under a new name, by Cegorach I hate that name!) and have the option to arm them with Shuriken Catapults. Up the basic range on the catapults to match Dire Avengers, and up the price for upgrading Guardians to it so that it's a "fluffy alternative"
Say a Guardian Defender uses Lasblaster, is more focused on pushing out heavy weapons, and has improved armour save. Costs 8 points. Change it to a Catapult and you pay 9 points per model. Change it to a Dire Avenger and you pay 10 points per model for a model with better BS, WS, LD, Init, and an Exarch which complements the unit in a completely different way.

sure the Blast, Infernus/Fusion, or Plasma pistol is better, but those are not squad wide weapons. I think howling banshees, striking scorpions and harliquins are good units. Giving them rending pistols would change things, making them better and thus make them more expensive. I dont think anyone wants to see those units get any more expensive.

Jetbikes could probably use a boost and possible point adjustment, they could be a really nice unit if done right. As far as vehicles are concerned I was thinking more about the shuriken cannons. a squadon of 3 vypers each with 2 shuriken cannons with rending would be a terrifying anti tank force that would be pretty good against infantry too.

Arent Dire avengers 12 points?

How about changing shuriken catipults to 24" Str4 AP5 Assault 1 while leaving shuriken pistols and cannons alone? That would similar to what you are talking about with las blasters without having to make new models.

Here's a thought.


What if they increased the cost of Bladestorm slightly and added Rending to shots taken when Bladestorming.

that seems fair.

dancingcricket wrote:Personally I'm in favor of making Gauss into Melta weapons, not changing the stats necessarily, but that would bring them in line with the fluff and back to being effective against vehicles, without seriously changing their effectiveness against units on foot.

On the rending. I'm not as worried about it. Yes, it means that someone isn't going to get an armor save. And I feel sorry for your Terminator for not getting his armor save. Well, not really. Not since he was riding to battle in that Land Raider. And he's going to ignore 5/6 of the other wounds, has a back up invulnerable save, and can stand in cover for an additional save, just like everyone else. Marines in their rhinos, guard in their chimera, shooting out but being immune to small arms fire, rending doesn't seem that bad. Means that when we do finally get you out of your vehicle, we can not have to waist 2-3 rounds trying to get rid of what was inside in addition. I'll agree rending is too OP when transports stop being a neccessity in everyones army.

My main problem with this is that if by saying that a 8 point guardian should have an easy way to kill terminators that go for 40-45 points and the thing to do about it is putting them in a 250 point land raider is not really a viable option imho.
If the 80 point guard squad can with just little luck take down the 400 point termie squad and sm players have to put them in a 250 pts land raider that makes it 650 points to protect and elite unit from a 80 troop. Then its not working properly.'
we still should have different units and skills in the game i think. not everything should be able to kill everything.

Oh, I agree. Rending on everything is not the way to go, I'm just not worried about it since transports are so common. When something happens that takes away cheap easy transports, and reduces the amount of cover saves available, then rending on everything would be OP. But against a rhino, a 10 man guardian squad isn't likely to get the marines inside out, and since they have such a short range, the marines inside are in rapid fire or charge range when they get out next round. Against a squad in the open, your likely, with rending, to get between 3 and 4 kills against a marine squad, total including rending) with the same 10 man guardian squad. Rending is no longer off of the hit, not since 5th came out. So the number of potential rends has gone down significantly. And the armies it would hurt most to be facing an opponent who has rending troops, are ones who have the best save otherwise, marines. Now I'll admit that I don't care for marines, so there is a bit of a bias, but my bias is not one of 'Put the screws to the marines', but 'I'd like to have more variety in my opponents'. Anything that might encourage others to branch out is, in my mind, a good thing.

As for everything being able to kill everything, unless they start allowing higher than T6 in new codexes, and stop putting in heavy weapons in squads, then it looks like they're already going with everything can kill everything. Lasguns can take down a carni, tyrant, trygon, daemon prince, greater daemon. The only things that they can't touch seem to be in books that haven't been updated since 5th, and for that they have access to special and heavy weapons.

dancingcricket wrote:Oh, I agree. Rending on everything is not the way to go, I'm just not worried about it since transports are so common. When something happens that takes away cheap easy transports, and reduces the amount of cover saves available, then rending on everything would be OP. But against a rhino, a 10 man guardian squad isn't likely to get the marines inside out, and since they have such a short range, the marines inside are in rapid fire or charge range when they get out next round. Against a squad in the open, your likely, with rending, to get between 3 and 4 kills against a marine squad, total including rending) with the same 10 man guardian squad. Rending is no longer off of the hit, not since 5th came out. So the number of potential rends has gone down significantly. And the armies it would hurt most to be facing an opponent who has rending troops, are ones who have the best save otherwise, marines. Now I'll admit that I don't care for marines, so there is a bit of a bias, but my bias is not one of 'Put the screws to the marines', but 'I'd like to have more variety in my opponents'. Anything that might encourage others to branch out is, in my mind, a good thing.

As for everything being able to kill everything, unless they start allowing higher than T6 in new codexes, and stop putting in heavy weapons in squads, then it looks like they're already going with everything can kill everything. Lasguns can take down a carni, tyrant, trygon, daemon prince, greater daemon. The only things that they can't touch seem to be in books that haven't been updated since 5th, and for that they have access to special and heavy weapons.

a squad of marines inside a rhino costs around over 200 points(lets say standard is a 10 man squad with sarg, missile launcher and melta gun). Thats 25 guardians on foot. Assuming you have 2 squads of 10, the first squad will get 20shots, 10hits, .55 glances and 1.11 penetrates blowing the rhino up 37% of the time with rending without ANY heavy or special weapons. Now throw in some heavy weapons, say 2 squads of 12 guardians with shuriken cannons. Still less than a full tactical squad in a rhino without any free gear. The first squad gets 11cat hits and 1.5 cannon hits, .86 glances and 1.49 penetrates for about 50% chance of blowing up the rhino. For a troop around 100 points that is a very high percentage. If the rhino does blow up, maybe a few SM die, on average 1 will. If they are then caught in the open the second squad will kill another 3.7 marines for a total of 4.7 dead, almost half the squad of that cost over 200 points. Now if the SM got the drop on the guardians, in rapid fire range they will kill 7.22 guardians. Not even a third of the 200 points the two squads cost.

If you are trying to argue that Eldar Guardians should be able to win a shooting battle with a squad of marines of equal men you are doomed to lose.

I know I put up walls of text, but if you read it, I'm not saying I approve of the idea of rending on guardians, I'm just not generally worried about it. There is a difference.

Otherwise, I'm not buying it. Not because of a math difficulty, but because of overall picture. Yep, the guardians could conceivably pop the tank on the 1.49 penetrating hits they get with an average chance of 50% (I'm assuming your adding a half value on the chance for the .49). Sorta. They could get more, they could get less. And each pen has a 1/3 chance of wrecking the vehicle, and a 2/3 chance of not. While the odds are there, they're long odds on each shot. Miss 50%, rend 16.7% of the hits, wreck 33% of that. You'd need to have quite a bit more shooting available to guarantee the result you are looking for. Now, yep, 200 pts for your marines in their rhino, so much less for the guardians. OK. But now one squad has fired at the tank to MAYBE pop it open. Chances are to guarantee getting them out your going to have to use 2-3 squads to do so. Again, you could get lucky, but no guarantee. This means that there are going to be less squads to shoot at the guys who got out. And your dedicating a fair amount of your force to getting the guys out of the tank so that you can open up on them. Additionally, the catapult has a 12" range, which means that your guardians weren't firing at the rhino for most of the time except for a few shots off the heavy weapon, which to be honest, they'd be better off with a higher strength weapon rather than trying to rely on rending. And for that 200 pts as opposed to the cost of the guardian squad, your getting a storm bolter on the mobile platform, smoke launchers for a turn of cover saves (which can modify the above results a bit), a searchlight to help with nightfighting, a better WS BS S T LD (for the squad), a better save, more deployment options, and special rules that are often beneficial when you lose a fight, where guardians get a special rule that allows them to charge further to get into combat, without the benefit of grenades, where they are inarguably worse.

And I noticed your numbers didn't indicate how the guardians are getting untouched within 12" of the rhino on turn 1. It's possible they could have been such low priority targets that they could have run across the table for two turns to get in range of a rhino that's moving, having a couple guys pop up and shoot out of the top or popping smoke to avoid damage so that it's not turn 1, but not likely. I mean, do you seriously expect me to believe your moving a wave serpent up, turning it around so it's back is to your foe, so you can drop out 12 guardians so that they're within the 12 inch range of their weapons in hopes that their rending weapons will pop the rhino? Moving more than 12? They can't get out. Chances are you aren't getting across the table unscathed.

So yes, while your numbers can paint a grim picture for the marines, as long as mech is king, I don't see rending on low power weapons being that big a worry. Heck, if you're playing against someone running an eldar list relying exclusively on rending on guardians for their anti-tank, just go ahead and thank them for the win and be done. And actually, this is your best argument against general rending, the eldar army already has anti-tank capability. Still have to pop the tanks, which isn't easy, but doing so will make the rending more effective.

Now, against nids, yeah. It's a problem. No armor to hide in. Against a foot force, unless they're going sufficiently hordey that they can soak up the losses, rending is bad juju, and definitely OP. Since I'm hoping the meta changes if/when 6th comes out so that vehicles are no longer king, I'm generally against rending on troops shooting being a generally available thing. But as someone who plays armies that generally speaking have difficulties getting through armor to the meaty bits riding inside, I see it as a potential boost rather than a problem.

edited for screwing up the quote -.-.

nvm me..........