Advice on infantry based SM list

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**SilverMK2**

Edit: My current list: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/353436.page#2784990

I've been contemplating starting an SM army (nooooo!) as they have a lot of fun units that I basically want to own and can't because CSM don't get any fun toys.

However, I don't want to go down the traditional mech route (I'm planning for my army to have a minimum of tanks/dreads/rhinos) - what I do want is to have a reasonable number of jump troops, specialist infantry and maybe the odd land speeder and drop pod. I may possibly be interested in using a stormraven as well (though I would probably buy a Castus Assault Ram as a counts as, due to my intense dislike of the stormraven model).

I'm looking for a close/medium range type of army with good melta and flamer appreciation.

I would be looking initally to be building up from 1,000 points, through 1,500 and eventually to get a nice rounded 2,000 point list.

However, I am undecided whether I should be using the regular C:SM, or C:BA.

Any thoughts on the relative merits of either codex based on my army requirements? (Remebering of course that my heart will always belong to Chaos, meaning I have limited experience and exposure to SM codexes).

Thanks in advance for any help.

**Eyclonus**

Vulkan He'Stan, He's your man, if he can't torch it no one can!

He encourages lots of Melta/Flamer.

Although not Mechanizing is suicide in competition and makes the Melta/Flamer aspect hard to utilize as you won't get there as quickly.

Assault Marines aren't [[strike: as good as]] Raptors.
Devastators are lame, cost too much for the weapons.
Vanguard could be good if you get lots of the special beacons that assist non-teleport deepstriking, but in the end they're still costly.
Sternguard are awesome and a unit of 10 can deal with any threat, heck 5-6 of them should finish the Nightbringer with a round of shooting.

C:BA has much better Assault Marines etc, but... but the only real ace up their sleeve is Descent of Angels, which has issues, and can be either a tie-breaker and result in a protracted massacre of Baal's Finest.

So get C:SM and get Vulkan, possibly one of the most undercosted characters in the codex.

**guyperson5**

Get a tank or two or else, your meltas won't get close enough and will get pelted from afar

**SilverMK2**

I'd heard that Vulkan was pretty good and gives bonuses to flame/melta weapons.

What I really want to achieve is a good elite infantry army with a nice mix of the special units that SM can take.

Don't really mind if they are ultra competetive as I just want them for the nice looking models, though obviously a list that doesn't absolutely suck would be nice so if I ever used them in a game I would not just be wasting my time

Automatically Appended Next Post:

guyperson5 wrote:Get a tank or two or else, your meltas won't get close enough and will get pelted from afar

My CSM don't use many tanks - I pop enemy armour using raptors with melta - I plan on doing the same thing here.

You don't need to mech in order to get close.

**Eyclonus**

Assault Marines can't get meltaguns, only meltabombs or a Thunderhammer for tankbusting.

**SilverMK2**

Really? Well - that sucks

Is it the same in C:SM and C:BA do you know?

**Eyclonus**

Yah.

Assault Marines are really, really bad compared to Raptors.

BA ones can do some real mincing on Infantry but if you want to bust tanks in the FA section, use MM bikes or the Kamikaze Storm Scouts.

Even those two are really "If"y, the Kamikaze Scouts require you to get Initiative, and even then its likely they'll die in your opponent's Turn 1 after they take out their target. MM bikes are nice, but not good as the core of your anti-tank as Krak missiles will cut them to pieces.

**SilverMK2**

Hmmm... well, this is ruining my plans - damn you rubbish assault marines!

Though if they can take meltabombs I guess they are not a total waste in anti-tank...

Are the specialist marines (sternguard/honourguard etc) any good at anti-tank? If I drop pod them in or use a "stormraven" would they be able to do much good?

**Eyclonus**

Honour Guard are only good for one thing, cramming as many points into the Force Org as possible. They are terrible. If they had a 5++ or Stormshields, they'd still suck horribly.

Sternguard can all take Combi-Meltas, I use a unit of 5 with 3 Combi-Meltas, its does quite well. The unit can take 2 heavy/special weapons and their Special Ammunition will destroy anything but tanks. In short they are second only to Assault Terminators and even with Ironclads and Riflemen in the Elites section.

Scouts are... interesting, but weak, not useful for tank popping, but if you run a suicide squad with a meltabomb in a Landspeeder Storm you can get a Meltabomb on to that big fat Landraider in the first turn.

Command Squads are underpowered, they can handy for a few things, but the points are better spent elsewhere.

Terminators are... average, they're overshadowed by the Assault terminators but they have some nice options, but then their 5++ save lets them down. One unit of them can take a Landraider as a dedicated transport, which means five Landraiders if you take an Assault Terminator Squad too.

Assault Terminators, come with Lightning Claws which are nice and but one option; Thunderhammers and Stormshields. One unit can take a Landraider etc.. When they have Thunderhammers and Stormshields they will feth gak up so hard you'll kick yourself for even thinking of using normal ones. They are easily the best Elites unit, and the best in the whole Codex.

**SilverMK2**

See, the unfortunate thing is that I don't want to take much in the way of vehicles (especially LR's).

Might be tempted to use suicide scouts (as I really like the look of the LS Storm) to pop tanks.

Sternguard would probably be my unit of choice in this case then.

**Eyclonus**

Take 10, in a Drop Pod, you will not be disappointed. Don't give them any power weapons etc, as they're not a close combat unit, they will die when assaulted by dedicated assault units, which is how most people counter them, unless you use them to slaughter that unit of Banshees etc. With Pedro Kantor they can hold Objectives.

Which leads to the second most OP Theme list;

Crimson Fist First Company Drop Pod Assault

Pedro (Possibly Honour Guard with Grenade Launchers, it'll be the only time where I'd consider this unit), 3 units of Sternguard, 2-3 Tactical Squads and then either a MotF with a few Dreadnoughts, Thunderfire Cannons or a Devastator Squad (This is the only time you will take them) all in Drop Pods. It also means you can take Flamer/Melta spam, but its not as good as Vulkan.

**SilverMK2**

Yeah, I was just reading through this article and have to say how much better SM dreadnoughts are than chaos ones

However, I do want to stick to as much non-vehicle an army as possible (I already have 6 dreads for my CSM's...).

I was thinking something like:

3x sternguard with meltas in drop pods

3x assault squads with either flamers or hammers/shields

A couple of scout units with meltabombs and locators in landspeeders (assuming they can take them as dedicated transports for my DP's to come down on).

Maybe a couple more scout squads to sit on objectives with sniper rifles and camo?

Though I would like some regular marines in there somewhere... was not planning on scouts being a key part to the whole list.

**Eyclonus**

Only the Assault Squad Sarge gets the Hammer and a Combat Shield (6++).

If you are set on Jumppacks, take small units of Vanguard with power weapons or Lightning Claws. Use the Locators to get them close to targets to assault the moment they get down. But even still your paying a lot for a 5 man unit, it will hurt non-assault units quite well, but blobs or power weapons will just cost you points.

Scout Snipers will not hold objectives, I use them a fair bit, and take it from me, they rollover the moment the point is contested. They're nice for harassing units, but on the defensive they are terrible.

Take Tactical Squads to hold objectives.

Landspeeder Storms are Fast Attack, honestly people would go nuts if you they were Dedicated Transports.

For HQs the 2 best choisces for your primary, excluding characters is a captain or a Librarian. With Characters, I'd say stay away from Calgar, Cassius and Sicarus. Lysander is a combat beast, Kantor works perfect with Sternguard, Vulkan is the cheesiest thanks to his Melta/Flamer boost, Shrike gives you Fleet troops, and Kosarro Kahn is nice for going White Scars (Obviously) and has a nice feth you sword when it works.

EDIT: The article missed the Master Of The Forge, who is pretty much taken for 2 things, A) allowing you to take extra Dreadnoughts, and B) Conversion Beams which rip through tanks at 42"-72" and are still good for light armour popping at 19"-41".

**SilverMK2**

Disapointing about the LS-S's not being dedicated transports

Don't want to take the FA slots away from my AM's

Fleet troops sounds nice for a foot army...

So, I take it from your comments that you think I should be using the standard C:SM, rather than C:BA?

Or do you just not use C:BA yourself?

**Eyclonus**

I dislike C:BA because it has a lot of tricks, but you can only make one kind of Magic Show. Plus DSing LRs?!

Its got lots of these nice things, but in the end it boils down to either being C:SM Angsty Juvenile Delinquent edition, essentially just SM with slightly better assault or Descent of Angels which only they can do, and they do it... averagely, in that at its best its not able to handle certain builds and means relying on Reserve rolls.

Not to mention that DoA armies tend to be really small assault units, which is now bad thanks to better counters in the SW and GK codexes.

I currently use a hybrid of a Drop Pod Assault and light Mech Imperial Fists with Lysander attached to a Sternguard unit (rerolls on the Vengeance Rounds FTW), a lot of Dreadnoughts, MotF with a Conversion Beam of +3 Landraider Stomping and Sniper Scouts with Torias Telion.

Its not super cheesy but its clearly not underpowered.

**BishopGore**

Actually Blood Angels Assault marines can take Meltaguns. It's a real PITA (I play against Lamenters quite a lot), they're troops and they're better equipped than my vanillas.

If you fancy using some forgeworld rules, Ahazra Redth from the Mantis Warriors gives Chapter Tactics: Infiltrate. Very good for a marine heavy army, but you'd be playing a more Tactical squad heavy army, rather than jump troops and the like.

The Codex BA is much better than Eyclonus makes out, you do need a lot of assault troops to make it work, but with all their special rules (scatter D6 instead of 2D6 on landing, reroll for reserves) there's a lot of good reasons to take BAs.

And since you're looking for marine heavy and less vehicles, I would suggest BAs with the 30 assault, vanguard vets and a whole shed load of sanguinary priests (6" bubble of FNP and Furious Charge). Ouch.

**Eyclonus**

Not too mention Necrons will be your best buddies...

**SilverMK2**

BishopGore wrote:Actually Blood Angels Assault marines can take Meltaguns. It's a real PITA (I play against Lamenters quite a lot), they're troops and they're better equipped than my vanillas.

If you fancy using some forgeworld rules, Ahazra Redth from the Mantis Warriors gives Chapter Tactics: Infiltrate. Very good for a marine heavy army, but you'd be playing a more Tactical squad heavy army, rather than jump troops and the like.

The Codex BA is much better than Eyclonus makes out, you do need a lot of assault troops to make it work, but with all their special rules (scatter D6 instead of 2D6 on landing, reroll for reserves) there's a lot of good reasons to take BAs.

And since you're looking for marine heavy and less vehicles, I would suggest BAs with the 30 assault, vanguard vets and a whole shed load of sanguinary priests (6" bubble of FNP and Furious Charge). Ouch.

That does sound much better for what I want to do... do you still get access to options such as sternguard and so on?

Edit: As you may have guessed by now I know nothing about SM's

**BishopGore**

Sternguard are exactly the same EXCEPT the danger of the red thirst getting them (I had to check my codex, I've never seen a BA player use Sternguard!).

The Red thirst can ruin a battle plan for a unit you want to shoot with and not get into too much combat. If they start running around the field rather than shooting and charging into combat rather than tactically retreating... well, that would suck. Just something to consider.

**SilverMK2**

So, what is the deal with the red thirst... is it kind of like rolling to see if a unit goes insane each turn or something?

Edit: I didn't know it was an actual rule - thought it was just fluff to explain the DC

**BishopGore**

SilverMK2 wrote:So, what is the deal with the red thirst... is it kind of like rolling to see if a unit goes insane each turn or something?

Edit: I didn't know it was an actual rule - thought it was just fluff to explain the DC

At the beginning of each game you roll a D6 for each unit (after combat squadding but before scout moves) both on and off the table. Each unit which you roll a 1 for is subject to the Red Thirst for the entire battle. They replace And They Shall Know No Fear with Fearless and Furious Charge special rules.

EDIT:
Very odd, my opponents have always played that the Red Thirst victims get Rage as well, but nowhere does it say that in the Codex. Will have to check the FAQs... As it stands, Red Thirst just makes them awesome on the charge and slightly more likely to die if they do get into close combat and lose.

**SilverMK2**

BishopGore wrote:At the beginning of each game you roll a D6 for each unit (after combat squadding but before scout moves) both on and off the table. Each unit which you roll a 1 for is subject to the Red Thirst for the entire battle. They replace And They Shall Know No Fear with Fearless and Furious Charge special rules.

Fair enough

Well, it seems like I may well be headed towards getting a BA counts as army to fulfill my unhealthy desire for shiny SM units. I had a feeling they might be better for what I had in mind as I know they are more assault-oriented and can have a lot of jump pack troops

Although thanks of course to Eyclonus for letting me know what was going on in the SM codex.

Still up for comments about list composition and so on as well don't forget

**BishopGore**

I have never played BA myself, have only read the codex, but having seen a few units in action, I can suggest the following (considering you want a primarily marine army)

175pts - Librarian: Epistolary (Shield of Sanguinius, Blood Lance), Jump pack
150pts - 2 Sanguinary Priests, 2 Jump packs (these will each join different units)
230pts - 10 Assault marines, 2 meltaguns, storm shield
225pts - 10 Assault marines, 2 meltaguns, power weapon
210pts - 5 Vanguard Veterans, Jump packs, Power Fist, storm shield
------------
990pts

Librarian with vanguard vets - shield of sang gives 5+ cover save in 6" bubble, blood lance kills things (I have seen very few other psychic powers in action, there will probably be much better choices in the psychic powers) in a random length line.

Sang priest with each Assault squad to give them FNP and Furious Charge.

This list will struggle as you depend on getting the reserve rolls you want, but you have 3 incredibly dangerous units. If Vanguard Vets lose their free charge on landing with the librarian being with them, you might want to stick him with an assault squad instead.

Just a first idea, others will doubtless have better ones!

**SilverMK2**

Sounds interesting at least.

Would drop pods work well with a list such as this (if we were taking it up to say, 1,500 points or even 2,000 points)?

**Eyclonus**

Drop Pods mean you forego Descent of Angels, which is what makes their army work.

**SilverMK2**

Eyclonus wrote:Drop Pods mean you forego Descent of Angels, which is what makes their army work.

I suppose I will have to find out what that is then

Which is a shame as I like the drop pod model. Might have to get a couple just for the hell of it anyway.

**Eyclonus**

DoA means all DSing Jumppacks can assault and scatter D6 instead of 2D6, hence Drop Pods are not worth taking on units that have Jumppacks, although if you want Dreadnoughts I recommend Drop Pods over the Failraven.

**SilverMK2**

Ah, I see - I would be putting non JP units in the DP's, such as regular tactical marines and so on.

I thought you meant that DP's somehow removed the DoA rule from the army or something.

**BishopGore**

Eyclonus wrote:Drop Pods mean you forego Descent of Angels, which is what makes their army work.

Drop pods are just different to descent of angels.

Descent of Angels means that when a unit of jump pack troops drops into the battlefield they only scatter D6" instead of 2D6" and can reroll reserves.

When drop podding, you drop half the pods (rounding up) on turn 1, which is long before any of your reserves can turn up (earliest turn 2). A unit of assault marines can exchange their jump packs for a free standard drop pod. HOWEVER you can only fit 10 men in a drop pod, which means we start losing meltaguns for our units

Let's look at the above list, drop pod style:

175pts - Librarian: Epistolary (Shield of Sanguinius, Blood Lance), Jump pack
100pts - 2 Sanguinary Priests (these will each join different units)
202pts - 9 Assault marines, 1 meltagun, storm shield, drop pod
197pts - 9 Assault marines, 1 meltagun, power weapon, drop pod
210pts - 5 Vanguard Veterans, Jump packs, Power Fist, storm shield
115pts - 4 Death company, drop pod
------------
999pts

So turn 1 you drop the 2 assault squads with their sang priests, they scatter 2D6", but unless they go off the board you're not going to suffer from deep strike mishaps. They can't move fast, but they can hit fairly hard (though your anti tank has been halved, not exactly what you want), so you'll need good rolls, no 12" move to help them out.

Vanguard vets and librarian drop in later, along with the death company drop pod, which is just for fun really, you can replace it with anything else you might like instead.

I forgot to mention, Blood Lance is S8, AP1 and has the lance effect, so it goes through everything. If your opponent lines up his tanks right, you can drop in, roll a decent lance length and potentially blow up a couple of tanks

You lose your free charge move (vanguard veterans have a special power which allows them to charge the turn they deep strike so long as they don't do anything in the shooting phase) on the turn you drop, but that seems pretty worth it!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eyclonus wrote:DoA means all DSing Jumppacks can assault and scatter D6 instead of 2D6, hence Drop Pods are not worth taking on units that have Jumppacks, although if you want Dreadnoughts I recommend Drop Pods over the Failraven.

You really hate BA don't you

I think you're possibly a little biased in this discussion, not that there is anything wrong with bias, personally I am biased towards an army of all jump pack marines, I think it sounds awesome!

PS the Stormraven is a hit and miss bird, AV 12 is fragile in the world of big str guns, but with those 72" range Str8 AP1 missiles and Machine Spirit (target 2 units during the same shooting phase) it's a deadly little creature. And all the vanilla marine players are green with envy that we can't have any.

**SilverMK2**

Thanks for clearing things up BishopGore.

I was not thinking of changing the AM's to take drop pods over JP's - I was thinking for the 1,000 point + level (ie the section of the army that would make up points 1,000 to 2,000) and sticking some regular and elite troops in drop pods.

Also - I love the sound of the blood lance (even if it has a silly name

).

I know the SR is fragile (and I really dislike the model), but as I mentioned, I may get an Assault Ram as a counts as if I discover that the SR is good for me (through the glorious use of proxy

).