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I've been a member of DakkaDakka now for about 9 months now and have become somewhat perplexed by my fellow Tau players disdain for our basic the Troop, the Fire Warrior.

I noticed in several army lists/recommendations, etc. that many (I know this doesn't quanitfy anything) Tau players push a minimalist attitude toward the Fire Warrior, specifically, a 6 man squad or two, with the exception of the Fish of Fury Tactic.

It seems, in my estimation, to depive your army of all but a handful of these rather amazing guys is unwise.

Let's look at what makes this unit so valuable, or in some cases, undervalued, which is my arguement.

For only 10 pts/model youg get: a S5 AP5 30" Rapid Fire gun (the best in the game as far as basic troops go), BS3 (not as good as BS4, but not bad either), and a 4+Sv (ditto). Sure they are horrible in close combat, and they have T3, and I2 (in fact, my 2yr old could probably take 'em); but that's not what they're used for anyways (unless your a sadist, in which case you have my pity, please, seek help). Don't overlook the Pulse Carbine either, it adds some flexibility to you Fire Warrior Squads, while still mainting its punch, which I will address a little later, but first the Pulse Rifle

Lets take a twelve man Fire Warrior Team for Instance (all with Pulse Rifles, no Shas'Ui)

That's 120pts, for 12 S5 shots out to 30" with a statistical probablity of hitting 6 times, which is about 4 wounds on T4 models, and on T3 models it'll be 5 wounds. That means one dead Space Marine, two if your lucky, or 5 Gaunts (not accounting for cover saves). This my fellow Tau is your Anti-horde weapon, and its especially good against Orcs due to their poor Sv, and it's not to bad against Space Marines either, as far as forcing armor saves on them.

Now, let's upgrade one to a Shas'ui at +10 points, and give him a Hard-wired Drone Controller with two Marker Drones at +40 points.

The new unit is now 170 points.

With the Marker Marker Drones you have a good chance of at least getting +1 BS and ~1/4 chance of getting +2BS.

With an effective BS4 (assuming one Marker Drone hit), you will get about 8 hits out to 30", which works out to about 6 wounds (slightly less, but pretty close) on T4 models (Space Marines), which equals 2 Dead Space Marines, and T3 models (Gaunts) will likely yield 6 dead gaunts and possibly 7, with a little luck.

Now, with two Marker Drone hits they become BS5, you will then get 10 hits out to 30", with good odds of 7 wounds and ~ 3 dead Space Marines, or ~9 dead Gaunts.

Note: For just over half the price of a Devilfish, you can cause as many wounds, statistically speaking, as you can with a Fish of Fury, only your doing so from 30" away instead of within 12" of the intended target, which is not usually a place you want your Fire Warriors to be. Don't get me wrong, I have used Fish of Fury to great effect myself, and I am by no means getting down on that tactic.

When you think of Fire Warriors, don't think of them as squishy troops in close combat, but rather as a squad of Pulse Rifles. In my reading of various forums both here and on other websites, this seems to be a major mental handicap that many Tau players suffer from. Treat them as guns, not troops.

Additionally, while we Tau players have access to the mighty Railgun, other than that, most of our "cool guns" are much shorter range, such as the Plasma Rifle, 1/3 the range, and the Missle Pod, 1/2 the range. The Pulse Rifle is where we get the bulk of our mid-ranged firepower.

Do not mistake that I am advocating Fire Warriors over Suits, nothing could be further from the truth. I love my Suits. The problem with suits is that you can only have so many of them. At max, that would be 15 suits (counting 2 commanders with 2 Bodyguards each; and not counting a Farsight Army), but that's easily over 1,000 points depending on their equipment, which is very small model to point ratio, especially when you consider that they only have a 3+ Save and there is, in my opinion, and over abundance of AP3 or better weaponry out there (I'm looking at you Imperial Guard), not to mention a Krak Missle, the bane of any Crisis Suit. I am advocating a balance of Fire Warriors and Suits, for instance, I recently played my brother in a 750 point game. Here is my list:

HQ:
Shas'el with Plasma Rifle, Missle Pod, Targeting Array, and Hard-wired Multi-tracker

Elites:

Crisis Team:
Team Leader with Twin-linked Plasma Rifle, Missle Pod, Hard-wired Multi-Tracker

Crisis Team:
Team Leader with Twin-linked Missle Pod, Plasma Rifle, Hard-wired Multi-tracker

Crisis Team:
Team Leader with Twin-linked Fusion Blaster, Plasma Rifle, Hard-wired Multi-tracker

Troops:

Fire Warrior Squad:
8 Fire Warriors with Pulse Carbines

Fire Warrior Squad:
8 Fire Warriors with Pulse Carbines

Kroot Carnivore Squad:
12 Kroot

Heavy Support:

Broadside Team:
Team Leader with Advanced Stabilisation System, Hard-wired Multi-tracker, Blacksun Filter

Braodside Team:
Team Leader with Advanced Stabilisation System, Hard-wired Multi-tracker, Blacksun Filter

He had Vanilla Space Marines.

Captain with Lighting Claw, and Combi-melta

5 man Tactical Squad in a Razorback armed with a Heavy Bolter

5 Scouts with Sniper Rifles

Dreadnought with Mulit-melta in a Drop Pod (I hate these things)

5 man Terminator Squad with an Assault Cannon

While his list was probably a bit under-powered, it wasn't that bad. His main weakness was not enough troops. That being said, I tabled him on turn 5. This was due in no small part to my Pulse Carbine equipped Fire Warriors (and one of my Broadsides popping his Razorback on the first turn). The Fire Warriors actually inflicted decent casualties to both his Troops units, and aided in killing his Captain. The Firewarriors, in combination with my suits presented him with too many problems to deal with at one time, and, as any good general will tell you, you win a battle by giving your opponent to many things to deal with at the same time.

If you like, you can read the full battle report here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/351773.page

It starts off with a 500 point game with similar army choices, and he tabled me, but when you read it you'll see it was due more to miserable dice rolls and some bad initial placement on my part than anything else.

To sum up, the Fire Warrior is the best shooting troop in the whole game (remeber, he's a Pulse Rifle/Carbine, not a "troop"), and should be treated as such. By minimizing the number of Pulse Rifles you take, you minimize the effectiveness of your army. While I wouldn't neccessarily advocate taking more points worth of Fire Warriors than Suits, I have toyed with the idea of taking 6 12 man Firewarrior Squads with 2 Marker Drones each, in a 2,000pt game. 72 Fire Warriors would give your opponent quite alot to deal with in my opinion.

I hope I have acquitted the Fire Warrior well with this post. Let me know what you think.

I have the same feeling towards Necron Warriors. A lot of people advocate taking just the bare minimum 20 of them, but I like running three units of them, often around the 12 models per unit number.

This same idea would also apply to the Necron Warrior. You have 6 troops slots in your Force Organisation Chart for a reason.

True Fire Warriors are the best equipped core troop choice in the game but they are far from the best. They are very expensive at 10 points each considering their poor leadership, low toughness, and crippling WS/I that make them completely ineffective at 1/3rd of the game in the assault phase. Add on top of this the face that the "shooty" race has army-wide BS3 and they become even worse. In the context of 5th edition and the costing of 5th edition codices, Fire Warriors deserve their shame in my opinion.

Regardless of our differing opinions, it is a very well written post but I just wanted to let you know that you have undercosted Marker Drones. Each one is 30 points, making the Shas'ui/2 Marker Drone upgrade package +70 points.

At 70 points for that upgrade, why bother with the drones? Why not just take a 5-man Pathfinder unit for 60 points and then re-purpose the required devilfish for your Fire Warriors instead of having them buy their own? It is cheaper, you get three more markerlights, and the opponent needs to engage a different unit to hurt the markerlights.

Oops, sorry about the points cost error, its late, I didn't have my Codex in front of me. Even with the additional 20 points, I still think it is a valid strategy, and often an overlooked or disregarded one.

I agree that Pathfinders are useful, however the point I was trying to make was regarding Fire Warriors. If Fire Warriors have their own Marker Drones for instance, that frees thosePathidinfer Markerlights up for your Broadsides or Suits, etc. I wasn't meaning to say you should always give Fire Warriors Marke Drones, but that one should consider the benefits of doing so.

You seem to have missed my point entirely, no offense. The only important stats on a Fire Warrior is BS, Sv, and his gun. 10 pts/model isn't horribly expensive at all (though if they were any more expensive, I could not justify this post). LD, T, WS and I have no bearing on their intended use. When you spend points on a Fire Warrior Squad, you are spending them on Pulse Rifles, not troops. This goes back to the mental handicap I mentioned. Fire Warriors are well suited to being a static gunline in cover, and in some cases, the added manueverablitiy the Pulse Carbine affords is useful as well. When thinking of the FIre Warrior, one must think of it as a weapon, a pretty damn good one at that. Show me another standard troop, or any unit for that matter, that lets you take up to 12 S5 AP5 Range 30" guns for 10pts/apiece (including the price of the model itself).

I agree that some things are too points-cost expensive in the Tau Codex, but the Fire Warrior is not one of them. The Devilfish certainly is, however.

Thanks for your compliment on the quality of the post, Sonic.

Shas'O...Crap wrote:I agree that Pathfinders are useful, however the point I was trying to make was regarding Fire Warriors. If Fire Warriors have their own Marker Drones for instance, that frees that Pathidinfer Markerlights up for your Broadsides or Suits, etc.

I don't dispute the ability of Marker Drones, I just question the value of spending points on them. Us Tau players have an overcosted codex and have to compete with outrageous things like 10 BS4 IG Veterans for 70 points. In this setting we need to squeeze the value out of every point we can. Marker Drones are just as effective as a single markerlight but at nearly 3x the cost. If you have the Fast Attack slot and are already using a Devilfish through Fire Warriors, I suggest that purchasing another Pathfinder unit (even at 4 models) is always better than buying a Marker Drone. However, that is just my philosophy but I see nothing that justifies the +18 point cost of a Marker Drone over a Pathfinder as they do the exact same thing at the exact same statline.

The one problem I have with taking the Pathfinders is the compulsory Devilsfish, which one ought to factor in when figuring the points costs for Pathfinder Markerlights. I do take pathfinders, but only in larger points games, usually 1250+, simply because I hate having to pay for the Devilfish

I did not intend this post to be about marker lights, but rather as something one should consider taking with your Fire Warriors, I certianly don't advocate it in every situation. My point was the Fire Warriors often times have there strategic/tactical uses overlooked by many Tau players for many of the reasons you laid out. I am saying that most of those reasons, in particular the statline items you brought up are meaningless with regards to their purpose and mission objective, i.e. mid-range firepower.

I was advocating that Tau players should have an expanded roll in their army for their Fire Warriors. Two to three squds of 8-10 Fire Warriros each, backed up by Broadsides, Suits, and maybe some Kroot, add flexibility, firepower, and most importantly, more things for your opponent to have to deal with.

I agree that Vets are annoying, however, unless they took the Grenadiers upgrade, giving them the 4+ armor save, the get gunned down fairly easily by Fire Warriors.

Yes, while Fire Warriors are completely atrocious in CC, it is not their purpose, remember, they are guns, not troops, you take Fire Warriors for their guns. The idea is to use tactics and manuevering to avoid being assaulted. Will you always be successful at this, no; but with a sound strategy and good use of tactics you can overcome these shortcomings.

I haven't really played Tau in a while (since 4th edition) but I really preferred firewarriors over kroot. I would position them in cover and shoot with them. Their point cost is a little extreme but when synergized with some markerlight help they can really put the hurt on some units.

Let's not forget that even a minimal unit of firewarriors popping out of a devilfish purchased with your pathfinders can find and hit AV10 side and rear armor and penetrate it, and they can glance AV11. Looking down at a parking lot full of razorbacks coming at you? Six minimum sized FW squads can help slow them down by stunning or immobilizing them, and they're probably shooting at them right from the start with their 30 inch reach.

FYI: Unless a markerlight is networked (which they aren't for Marker Drones) the effect of the markerlight cannot benefit the unit that shoots with them.

So in the squad you suggest, they could indeed score 2 markerlight hits, but those would only benefit a different squad firing at the same enemy unit later.


As to why Firewarriors are tough to use, the problem is that when you start facing tournament army lists, you find that the vast majority of them are now mechanized, meaning your Firewarriors are sitting there trying to plink open transports until it is too late and the contents are out and killing them at close range.

The other problem is that now-adays with so much 3+ invulnerable saving throws running around the table the key is to have an incredible amount of shots. Firewarriors firing over 12" are still only firing a single shot, so that means they'll generally get one good chance (if they're lucky) to lay into that nasty 3+ invulnerable unit at close range before it is in amongst your lines destroying everything in close combat...and frankly, its just not enough typically.


So there's two ways you can try to play the Tau generally:


1) Don't mech up and try to get as many guns as possible into the army, in which case a fair amount of Firewarriors are key, although so are Kroot and mainly a TON of suits (both Crisis and Broadside).

Here, your only hope is to literally blow your opponent off the board as your mobility is so limited you will have a hard time capturing any objective that is very far from your deploiyment zone (and forget about the enemy's objective in Capture & Control).

Of course, the problem is that there is a LOT of fast stuff in the game now, or stuff that outflanks, or stuff that pops out of nowhere and it really can be tough to stop any nasty CC unit from getting into your lines and tearing the heart of your army out. Which is why many people go with:


2) Instead, you can mech up your Firewarriors. This gives your army much more mobility which can allow you to go capture a few more objectives. Of course, in this case your Firewarriors spend the whole game mostly inside their Devilfish which is why most people take minimum sized squads.


In short, while the Tau Firewarrior is okay it really suffers in 5th edition because their main advantage, a 30" range isn't what it used to be. Nearly every unit is now either mounted in a vehicle or if not, they're now running, which means you tend to get way less turns then you used to pounding away at enemy units trudging across the table towards you.

And the Tau's mediocre Ld (and their inability to bolster it in any quality way) can make it quite risky to put too many points into any one unit (like 60 points on marker drones, for example).

yakface wrote:FYI: Unless a markerlight is networked (which they aren't for Marker Drones) the effect of the markerlight cannot benefit the unit that shoots with them.

Actually, Marker Drones do in fact have Networked Markerlights so using them as Shas'O...Crap suggests is perfectly viable!

Shas'O...Crap wrote:You seem to have missed my point entirely, no offense.

None taken! Missing one's point is a frequent occurrence but it demands to be addressed to preserve the quality of the discussion. Don't feel guilt in notifying someone of their failure to understand!

Shas'O...Crap wrote:The only important stats on a Fire Warrior is BS, Sv, and his gun. 10 pts/model isn't horribly expensive at all (though if they were any more expensive, I could not justify this post). LD, T, WS and I have no bearing on their intended use. When you spend points on a Fire Warrior Squad, you are spending them on Pulse Rifles, not troops.

I'm afraid that I'm inclined to disagree slightly here. Firstly I do agree that the reasons we may look to use Fire Warriors are their average Ballistic Skill, above average Armour Save, and their excellent weapon. I disagree though that attributes like Leadership, Toughness, and Weapon Skill are not applicable to their intended use. Yes in their shooting phase the attributes you mentioned are all that matters but immediately following that turn they are likely to receive return fire. Their poor toughness ensures more wounds inflicted on the squad and their poor leadership gives them a better chance of running away. These outcomes are necessary to consider when devising strategy for Fire Warriors as they have to be intact and in position to make use of their excellent firepower. All of these stats are factored into deciding their point cost by GW as each unit can be exposed to each situation. Couple this with the randomness of 40K through dice and I think it is important to consider all aspects of a unit, not just the ideal situations for said unit.

Shas'O...Crap wrote:This goes back to the mental handicap I mentioned. Fire Warriors are well suited to being a static gunline in cover, and in some cases, the added manueverablitiy the Pulse Carbine affords is useful as well. When thinking of the FIre Warrior, one must think of it as a weapon, a pretty damn good one at. Show me another standard troop, or any unit for that matter, that lets you take up to 12 S5 AP5 Range 30" guns for 10pts/apiece (including the price of the model itself).

I completely agree with you here. As a unit only suited for shooting, strategic attention should be paid to them in positioning and firing and the Pulse Carbines you mentioned offer a good deal of flexibility and maneuverability over the static but long range Pulse Rifles. However, I think the key advantage of the Carbine is not its maneuverability but its pinning status. When it comes to maneuverability, I prefer Pulse Rifles for the extra shot at close range but the pinning on Pulse Carbines (especially coupled with Markerlights reducing leadership) is a tricky yet important tool in the Tau player's toolbox and should be considered when regarding Carbine Fire Warriors and Gun Drones in my opinion. As for other troops comparably equipped, you are correct; there are none. My claim of 10 points/model being overcosted stems from the bad parts of the Fire Warrior statline, mostly their poor Leadership and (in the world of Space Marines and IG Veterans) mediocre ballistic skill.

Shas'O...Crap wrote:I agree that some things are too points-cost expensive the Tau Codex, but the Fire Warrior is not one of them. The Devilfish certainly is, however.

I disagree about Fire Warriors being properly costed though i feel that they are very close. I think BS4 would make them perfect and Ld8 would start to push them over into IG Veteran Broken status. As far as Devilfish, I completely agree in the absurdity of the points cost. 80 points for a not-fast skimmer without fire ports that is so big you can't hide it? The only thing keeping them useful is the protection they provide and how ridiculously undercosted Disruption Pods are.

Shas'O...Crap wrote:The one problem I have with taking the Pathfinders is the compulsory Devilsfish, which one ought to factor in when figuring the points costs for Pathfinder Markerlights. I do take pathfinders, but only in larger points games, usually 1250+, simply because I hate having to pay for the Devilfish

I share your sentiments about buying Devilfish as they are so overcosted but I'm of the opinion that they are still necessary to keep Fire Warriors safe when sitting on objectives.

Shas'O...Crap wrote:I did not intend this post to be about marker lights, but rather as something one should consider taking with your Fire Warriors, I certianly don't advocate it in every situation. My point was the Fire Warriors often times have there strategic/tactical uses overlooked by many Tau players for many of the reasons you laid out. I am saying that most of those reasons, in particular the statline items you brought up are meaningless with regards to their purpose and mission objective, i.e. mid-range firepower.

I apologize for all of the talk about Markerlights. I read the bit about Marker Drones and misunderstood the true reason that you were suggesting their use. I won't speak about the different ways to take Markerlights again. As for the points about the Fire Warrior statlines, I have already commented previously in this specific post and won't repeat myself for the sake of controlling the length of the post.

Shas'O...Crap wrote:I was advocating that Tau players should have an expanded roll in their army for their Fire Warriors. Two to three squds of 8-10 Fire Warriros each, backed up by Broadsides, Suits, and maybe some Kroot, add flexibility, firepower, and most importantly, more things for your opponent to have to deal with.

I have seen the capabilities of large amounts of Fire Warriors as one of my frequent opponents (now playing IG) used to play Mech-Infantry Tau against my Marines (my first army) all of the time. 30-60 S5 shots is truly a fearsome thing but I fear that my experiences are slightly skewed as he often rolls far above average and I'm notorious for rolling poorly (I found that I failed 3+ armor saves about 60% of the time when I tracked all of my saves over several weeks as an experiment). Even then, by averages, that amount of S5 shooting is very powerful. The issues I take with such expanded use of Fire Warriors is when you encounter things like indirect template fire from Whirlwinds/Griffons or fail to kill the units you are targeting. The return fire against the Fire Warriors, at their current statline with T3 and Ld7, can often force them to run. I personally use Shadowsun for my theme (Ghost in the Shell) but she comes in handy with her Ld10 drone to keep exposed infantry from running.

Shas'O...Crap wrote:I agree that Vets are annoying, however, unless they took the Grenadiers upgrade, giving them the 4+ armor save, the get gunned down fairly easily by Fire Warriors.

They are killed quite quickly by Fire Warriors but Veterans are frequently encountered jumping out of Vendettas or sticking meltaguns through the firing ports of Chimeras, both scenarios which can see the Fire Warriors killing the Vet's transport but then are exposed to the return fire from the surviving Vets and any subsequent armor saves and leadership tests that may cause. My big issue with Veterans is the BS4 which is why I refer to them as a "WTF were they thinking?!?" unit so often when debating points costs.

Shas'O...Crap wrote:Yes, while Fire Warriors are completely atrocious in CC, it is not their purpose, remember, they are guns, not troops, you take Fire Warriors for their guns. The idea is to use tactics and manuevering to avoid being assaulted. Will you always be successful at this, no; but with a sound strategy and good use of tactics you can overcome these shortcomings.

I agree and I too advocate the use of tactics over extremely forgiving stats but Fire Warriors are just so fragile no matter how they are attacked that I believe they are not a strong-point of the codex. And yes, you can do much to prevent Fire Warriors being assaulted but often, through dice and special rules, you can have your plan derailed and find your riflemen in close combat. Blood Angels Vanguard Veterans, Drop Pod SM, fleeting Eldar, or a number of other things can often close distance before you can wipe them out so it is important to consider the possibilities instead of relying on the probabilities.


All in all I simply wish to offer a counterpoint through which to better discover the best uses of Fire Warriors. I in no way subscribe to the idea that Tau must be played a very specific way as I personally use a strange blend of units along with Shadowsun sitting and anchoring my force to much success; all without including a single fireknife or Shas'el XV8 commander! I'm all for shattering "internet meta" as I think the notion of a blanket metagame is absurd and I think advocates of said meta inadvertently rob players of the opportunity to discover their own personal play-style. So keep on using our proud Fire Caste warriors as you wish to do and be sure to share your findings with all of us! Articles like yours are very important and helpful so thanks for writing it and putting so much thought into it.

the people who give them a bad rep probably spend too much time on that stupid 3++ site, or are too competetive for there own good, when I played Tau I never had any bad experiences with fire warriors, hell even in close combat that 4+ save is useful against even marines

defence, offence, mobility, they have it all in spades, and the pts cost isn't that bad, 12 of them for far less than a tactical isn't too bad, and neither is BS3.

naysayers, competetive types and marine players, they are the only people I have ever seen complain about them

Marker lights = Stealthsuits w/ Drones FTW - x12 Firewarriors can and do lay wood...........

Shas'O...Crap wrote:With the Marker Marker Drones you have a good chance of at least getting +1 BS and ~1/4 chance of getting +2BS.

With an effective BS4 (assuming one Marker Drone hit), you will get about 8 hits out to 30", which works out to about 6 wounds (slightly less, but pretty close) on T4 models (Space Marines), which equals 2 Dead Space Marines, and T3 models (Gaunts) will likely yield 6 dead gaunts and possibly 7, with a little luck.

Now, with two Marker Drone hits they become BS5, you will then get 10 hits out to 30", with good odds of 7 wounds and ~ 3 dead Space Marines, or ~9 dead Gaunts.

So in essence, your spending 35 pts to kill an extra marine. Doesnt seem like a good trade off.(1 dead marine without drones, 2 with one hit, 3 with 2 hits from the marker).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Stella Cadente wrote:
naysayers, competetive types and marine players, they are the only people I have ever seen complain about them

You realize, that if competetive players are complaining about them not being that good, that perhaps there is some validity to it? Second Sphere, ATT and several other places dont seem to think to highly of FW currently, due to higher cost and low BS skill(and well 5th edition meta in general).

I'm sorry, but my stealth suits do that job much better and can flank the forces, stay on the move and stay alive much longer due to save, nightfight and some gun drones I throw in. My FW are effectively objective holders in their dumbfishes most of the time.

While I love my FW, I don't field as many as I would due to their overall ineffectiveness. My stealth suits, battlesuits, broadsides, railheads, piranhas and sometimes kroot and/or vespid do far better. Tau can't just sit and shoot after all.

I actually use my FW's quite frequently, and I think they're very important in any Tau army. Yes, their stats are a little...low compared to other troops, but the 30"/ Rapid Fire/S5 really makes up for it. I personally run two, 12 man squads of FW in my armies. I find that MEQ's are tough to fight, but can still kill 1-3 per turn, especially when they're stuck in a cross-fire between my two squads...Plus, I find that deep-striking Termi's even have a problem with them...Sure, they have a 2+ save, but 24, S5 rapid fire shots from one squad? Thats hard to fight.

I normally don't use Pulse Carbines since it seems a lot of troops are Fearless (I mostly play friends that field Chaos, so they all are )

I actually started toying with my army list and changed it to 10 Shas'la, 1 Shas'ui, and a Marker Drone per squad (so they can all fit in a 'fish, need be)...I can't wait to see if it's worth the extra 40 points per squad

Another reason why I always have the FW's is to make my army more flexable - it's the Tau's main strength. Sure, they have awesome ranged weapons, but they have troops/weapons that can put up a fight in CC. Hell, I've had a Broadside and a Termi Sarge stuck in CC for two turns before the Termi squashed him.

While your XV8's are JSJ, and your HH and Broadsides are Blowing up armor, the FW is the perfect in-between providing cover, high strength, long range shots. I'M KEEPING THEM

I'll break down why FW are lacking for you.

BS 3. 'nuff said, for a shooting army that has little CC ability and is not cheap enough to spam enough units not to care (guard), you can't afford to be missing half your shots (yeah yeah, marker lights. Using marker lights to strip cover saves for railguns/plasma/submunition blast usually has a higher payoff)

With the DE Splinter Rifle and the GK Stormbolter (especially with psybolt ammo), the Pulse Rifle doesn't have much claim to being the best basic troop weapon

T3 4+ sv and Ld. 7: T3 4+ means that your fire warriors are going to take a lot of wounds and only save half of them. Ld. 7 means those wounds are going to result in a squad breaking on about 50% of the break tests.

No Special weapons: Tau FW not only have no way of increasing their shooting threat to vehicles or heavy infantry, but you remember that T3 4+ thing? Yeah, so every round you take a lot of wounds and only make half the saves, you take a drastic reduction to your killing power, as opposed to, say, IG Vets with 3x Plasma. If 5 lasgun vets in the squad are dead, it's still a heavily damaging unit. You lose 5 firewarriors out of a 10 man squad, and your killing power has dropped 50%.

Devilfish is over costed and has no firing ports: A FW has to deploy on the board to shoot, which means that for the next turn they will take fire back (T3 4+). DE and Guard may have worse Armor saves, but they can torrent out of their vehicles without exposing the troops inside.

FNP: Those Marine's you're shooting at BS 5 with are Blood Angels. Those Gaunts you shot at had Catalyst cast on them. That's 1.09 dead marine or 4.23 dead gaunts without cover or 2.11 with cover

Both IG Veterans and DE Warriors cost less points than a FW and have a better stat line than FW, with the exception of armor save. However both of these troops can fire out of their Transport, making them more durable in practice than the FW.

Thanks for clarifying that Marker Drones are indeed equipped with Network Marker Lights. After all, if they weren't, what would their purpose be?

I understand that many Tau players keep their Fire Warriors in a Devilfish to hold an objective. The problem with that is, if they are in the Devilfish, they can not shoot, thus counter-productive to their use. Admittedly, Fire Warriors are somewhat of a risk/reward unit. 30 S5 shots is nothing to sneeze at, but they are vulnerable to return fire, which is why you should always, or at least as best as you can, keep them in cover.

To address your point about the Vendettas/Chimaeras, Sonic, I honestly have not played against one, so my knowledge is somewhat limited regarding them, though they do sound pretty nasty from some things that I have read. Chimaeras, I have not encountered either (No Imp Guard player to play against), however, I would treat them the same way I do with Rhinos/Wave Serpents; hit it with a Railgun (or two if need be) on the first turn.

Sonic, you said, "I agree and I too advocate the use of tactics over extremely forgiving stats but Fire Warriors are just so fragile no matter how they are attacked that I believe they are not a strong-point of the codex. And yes, you can do much to prevent Fire Warriors being assaulted but often, through dice and special rules, you can have your plan derailed and find your riflemen in close combat. Blood Angels Vanguard Veterans, Drop Pod SM, fleeting Eldar, or a number of other things can often close distance before you can wipe them out so it is important to consider the possibilities instead of relying on the probabilities."

I agree with you that one should consider the possibilities, but with 40K, they are virtually infinite. That said, rather than focusing on those things, focus on your own forces, the strengths and weaknesses, and it also doesn't hurt to be reactionary toward your opponent.

Couldn't agree more with you regarding the meta game, each player should focus on their own style and strategies and tactics.

Your input has been much appreciated, even if I disagree with some of it. Many thanks.


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@Carmachu

The info I provided regarding the casualties on the Marines was for relative purpose to how the Pulse Rifle fairs against Hordes. My point was that while they aren't the best in the Tau army for dealing with Marines, they are capable of inflicting an average amount of damage, thanks to the strength of their weapon forcing an above average number of armor saves.

While I consider myself a casual gamer, that doesn't mean that I don't play my casual games with a lack of competitive spirit. I prefer to rely on tactics rather than lists, though I think I build rather functional and fluffy lists, if I do say so myself. 40K isn't about list building and hitting your opponent in the head with it (except for Blood Angels Deep Striking Land Raiders, that's just uncalled for!). 40K is about having fun, and testing your own limits and abilities in the setting of a wargame.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I hardly ever use Stealth suits myself, as it limits the number of Crisis Suits you can take, but that can lay out a fair number of shots into a horde, I'll give you that, I just find that Crisis Suits are better all around.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Kroot Loops (Like the name by the way )

Being that any army's frontline guns, in the case of Fire Warriors, the Pulse Rifle/Carbine, are intended to kill your opponents troops (i.e. their front line guns, or choppas/talons in some cases). With that in mind, S5 out to 30" is unmatched, with the possible exception of the Grey Knight Storm Bolters, but this will depend upon the models point cost in their new Codex, which given GW's recent track record will likely be not enough points, or too many points; this will determine just how many you can field. Is 20 Storm Bolters better than say 40 Pulse Rifles for likely an equivalent points cost? Regarding the Dark Eldar Splinter Rifle, I must confess to not knowing its particulars, so I can not comment on it in any kind of knowledgable manner.

With reagards to the T + Sv + Ld arguement against the Fire Warrior, I will say this; if you are busy shooting at my Fire Warriors, my Crisis Suits, Broadsides, and Hammerheads will make you pay for it.

The key to Fire Warriors is that they provide balance and firepower. They have the added benefit of not being nearly as scary as said Suits, 'Sides, and 'heads, therefore, in an actual game, your opponent is more likely to be focusing on them, not your multitude of S5 shots coming from your Fire Warriors. Remember, the primary role of the Fire Warrior is Fire Support, and they are very good at it.

I disagree with your assumption that Fire Warriors will be taking return fire in the first turn. Proper placement will ensure the maximum utlity of their superior range. Your opponent will then have to move up in order to get within his maximum range, however, he MOVED, which in most cases precludes him for utilizing the maximum range on his basic guns.

Fire Warriors, in sufficient quanties (~1/5-1/3 of your total points spent), supporting and being supported themselves by Crisis Suits, and Broadsides can easily handle most situations. I will not get into tactics with dealing with troops shooting out of the transports, as they are easily dealt with. Furthermore, that is not what this thread is about. The purpose of my orignal post was to encourage people to think differently with their Fire Warriors. They are a very under-utilised component in most Tau army lists I've seen.

Shas'O...Crap wrote:T
@Kroot Loops (Like the name by the way )

Thanks

Being that any army's frontline guns, in the case of Fire Warriors, the Pulse Rifle/Carbine, are intended to kill your opponents troops (i.e. their front line guns, or choppas/talons in some cases). With that in mind, S5 out to 30" is unmatched, with the possible exception of the Grey Knight Storm Bolters, but this will depend upon the models point cost in their new Codex, which given GW's recent track record will likely be not enough points, or too many points; this will determine just how many you can field. Is 20 Storm Bolters better than say 40 Pulse Rifles for likely an equivalent points cost? Regarding the Dark Eldar Splinter Rifle, I must confess to not knowing its particulars, so I can not comment on it in any kind of knowledgable manner.

Splinter rifles are 24" rapid fire poisoned weapons.

Lets see, 20 storm bolters firing at FW from 24" 40x.66=26.4 hits. 26.4x.84=22.17 wounds 22.17x.5=11.08 dead FW. Now add special weapons into the fray, and they wipe out a full squad

40 pulse rifles at 30" 40x.5= 20 hits 20x.66= 13.2 wounds 13.2x.33= 4.35 dead marines. Now add in special weapons and... oh wait, they don't have any. Alarmed yet?

Don't over hype the 30" range, it's nice, but considering how fast armies are in 5th, it will usually only get you a single round of advantage. And if you have to move, even a millimeter, your range drops to 12". If you have to move to objectives, that's a problem for you.

And unconventional lists or tactics can wreak havoc on a Tau gunline. Ever seen what a 2x Thunderfire cannon or whirlwind list with first turn does to Tau infantry? It's not pretty. Last time I played against Tau instead of bothering to shoot my lootas at his vehicles I turned them on his pathfinders and fw on foot the first turn, and in turn two every infantry model he had on the board was dead or falling back.

With reagards to the T + Sv + Ld arguement against the Fire Warrior, I will say this; if you are busy shooting at my Fire Warriors, my Crisis Suits, Broadsides, and Hammerheads will make you pay for it.

They really wont. Because Tau FW are fragile enough that I can send low strength fire at them for a good return that I would waste on the harder targets, and leaves me free to fire anti-tank weapons at them which are a threat to the HH, and an ID threat to the suits. After that it's a matter of hemming them in for assault. Oh don't get me wrong, it's possible for Tau to win (against anything except DoA Blood Angels if skill is anything close to equal), but it's a case of everything has to go right for you, or you have to play with no mistakes with your opponent making some serious ones.

The key to Fire Warriors is that they provide balance and firepower. They have the added benefit of not being nearly as scary as said Suits, 'Sides, and 'heads, therefore, in an actual game, your opponent is more likely to be focusing on them, not your multitude of S5 shots coming from your Fire Warriors. Remember, the primary role of the Fire Warrior is Fire Support, and they are very good at it.

They are decent at it, however they are so fragile they typically don't stay long enough for a large impact. Take Pathfinders, which are just FW left on foot. I've yet to meet a Tau player that seriously expects to have a pathfinder left on the board after turn 2.

I disagree with your assumption that Fire Warriors will be taking return fire in the first turn. Proper placement will ensure the maximum utlity of their superior range. Your opponent will then have to move up in order to get within his maximum range, however, he MOVED, which in most cases precludes him for utilizing the maximum range on his basic guns.

30" is 30" is 30", and the board is only so big. It's one of the main drawbacks to the Tau army. It is not a fast army (nothing in the army moves over 12" a turn except Piranha) and you do not have unlimited space to maneuver. if your opponent has first turn and is deployed 12" forward, and then moves 12" up, even if you destroy their vehicles on your turn, the 30" range has become an almost entirely moot point. It's why the 'best' method of trying to use Tau competitively (and the second most boring way to play 40k) involves using piranha in an attempt to block the opposing army from moving forward. It's like the 72" range of the railgun. Ok that's nice on paper, but in years of playing Tau, it was a factor on one shot that wasn't even crucial to the outcome of the game (it was turn 7 against CD, I had 2 objectives to his one, and just took a submunition potshot at his daemonettes (his only unit left) for something to do).

Even that falls flat, however, when facing an all Jump Infantry army with FNP and outflanking tanks. Or a Skimmer based army like DE, but that is another topic.

Fire Warriors, in sufficient quanties (~1/5-1/3 of your total points spent), supporting and being supported themselves by Crisis Suits, and Broadsides can easily handle most situations. I will not get into tactics with dealing with troops shooting out of the transports, as they are easily dealt with. Furthermore, that is not what this thread is about. The purpose of my orignal post was to encourage people to think differently with their Fire Warriors. They are a very under-utilised component in most Tau army lists I've seen.

It's very much what the thread is about. Str 5 weapons don't do you any good when the model wielding them are dead. One of the strengths of the other codices mentioned is that to kill their troops, you first have to open the transport, and then kill the troops that are inside. With FW who shoot, you just have to kill the FW.

carmachu wrote:You realize, that if competetive players are complaining about them not being that good, that perhaps there is some validity to it?

not really, since these people list every single codex other than space wolves as being utterly useless, its easy to to ignore the opinions they have and rightly assume they are as valid as a dog turds opinions on politics.

While i dont play tau, and never have, the basic fire warrior is pretty good for points IMO.

With DE being a new army and alot of players using them, fire warriors can have a field day.

AV10 - 11 everywhere, meaning you can pen the 1st and glance the last of the 2.
T3 models everywhere give you a nice 2+ to wound, more than making up for low BS.
Poor saves yet again help tau kill.





As said, cron warriors are in the same boat.
I generally like to run 4 units of 10.
3 sit back with a lith each and the 4th veil about with the lord, getting shots on rear armour or generally being a pain in the arse.
Granted i use alot more than most, but a basic weapon that can glance anything? thats good enough for me.
Just pop things through wep destroyed.
Even better if its open topped, you can actually kill it in 1 hit lol.

now look what my orks get for 120 points.

6 points each, so 20 boys.

assault 2 weapons, so that 30inch range is the same as my 6 inch movement and 24 shoostings.

40 shots, 12 hits, 5 space marine wounds, seem familiar?

But lets skip ahead a turn or 2. 8 firewarriors die to shooting, the other 4 leave. 8 orks die to shooting, the other 12 laugh at their corpses and move on.

And then in assault its not even close.

and that is why fire warriors are eww.

copy/paste any other army.

@Kroot Loops

Thanks for the info on the Splinter Rifle. 4+ poisoned is nifty, but I wouldn't call it 'better' than the Pulse Rifle, though it would be more effective against a Monstrous Creature or other similarly high toughness models, it would less effective against, say, Space Marines, or even my Fire Warriors, for that matter.

Your permutations on the Storm Bolters while intriguing, aren't of much use at the moment due to the fact that the Codex has yet to be released for Grey Knights. They could cost 30pts/model, maybe more if the rumors of 'Annointed Armor" are true, but that's a differnet topic.

Yes, armies have gotten obscenely fast in 5th Ed, however, I think your failing to take into account my tactics with regards to my other units. I started this thread with it being specifically about the Fire Warrior, and it's use. An entire army of nothing but Fire Warriors would not last long at all. If you check out the Battle Report that I linked in this thread, you will see how I use them. Before you say anything regarding my opponents list in those two battles, bear in mind they were atypical for him, he was trying something out, and it went well for him in the first battle, but not the second.

No, I haven't seen what two Thunderfire Cannons would do, but it does sound nasty, I'll have to let my brother know, as he plays Space Marines.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on whether or not my Suits, etc. would make you pay for concentrating on my Fire Warriors, I contend they will, you contend they won't, and neither of us will change the other's mind, and that's acceptable to me.

Personally, I don't use Pathfinders that much, and when I have, I have had mixed resluts with them, frankly I think they are overrated except in higher points games, but other players mileage may vary.

Tau are one of the most tactically-intense armies in the game. You have to be unconventional, or completely boring to be succesful, my preferred method is unconventional, but that doesn't make it any less valid, just different. With proper tactics and initial placement, such as in cover, out of Line of Sight from something nasty (Thunderfire Cannon), knowing when to move your static gun-line, screening forces etc. You're post insinuates that I don't have a way to deal with the things you mentioned, I do, but that is not what this thread is for. Otherwise, I would've called it "How to win a game with nothing but Fire Warriors", and been laughed right off of DakkaDakka.

The intended purpose of this thread WAS to discuss the Fire Warrior and the potential uses you can employ with them, i.e. unconventional thinking. It was NOT about tactics to deal with Open-topped Fast Transports.

I played them a couple of times.

They did ok, but wern't really nothing to write home about. You seem to be pimpin the message, but your forgetting that they're pretty useless in hand to hand, in which the new game is more involved in. Good shooting for a turn, then getting thier heads ripped off while being overrun and surrounded in turn 2. Tau's love is in the armor and battle suits realm. The Kroot are there for cheap cannon fodder and filling in for taking positions. THEY do better at larger numbers then the 6-12 man squad do. less muss for the fuss, as well. Keep it simple stupid tactics and easy to manuver without the added insult of losing your points for them when they die off. Kroot good. FW overrated.

Shas'O...Crap wrote:
With an effective BS4 (assuming one Marker Drone hit), you will get about 8 hits out to 30", which works out to about 6 wounds (slightly less, but pretty close) on T4 models (Space Marines), which equals 2 Dead Space Marines, and T3 models (Gaunts) will likely yield 6 dead gaunts and possibly 7, with a little luck.

Now, with two Marker Drone hits they become BS5, you will then get 10 hits out to 30", with good odds of 7 wounds and ~ 3 dead Space Marines, or ~9 dead Gaunts.

The trouble with this is that it's just not effective for stopping your space commies from getting their teeth kicked in. 120 points worth of boyz gets you 20 to your posited 120 points worth of fire warriors + markerlight hits from some other unit. These boyz are almost certainly going to have cover unless you're in rapid fire range, and even then there's a decent chance they'll have it. Killing 3 of them each turn for 3 turns at range is going to not be enough. Sure, for 5 markerlight hits you can negate cover and be BS5, but you don't have enough markerlights for every unit of fire warriors to get the bonus (and that would cost way more points.) The fact of the matter is that fire warrior shooting is generally a losing proposition, which is unfortunate because it is all they have and what they're supposed to be good at.

So, I'm not a tau commander in the slightest, but I can comment on how they look compared to guardsmen.

They're twice as expensive than your regular guardsmen, and they only have WS2, but they have a 4+ save, which means that a single firewarrior is actually on par with a single guardsmen in close combat.

Meanwhile, the firewarrior has a 30" S5 small arm, which means that they don't have to take any special tools to handle AV10, as their small arm is sufficient. Likewise, with S5, their small arms can take down monstrous creatures by themselves. As far as I'm concerned, tau infantry come standard with low-shot-count heavy bolters as their small arm, which is pretty sassy.

Then you combine this with the fact that they have a 4+ cover save. This means that, unlike guardsmen, they don't have to cower in fear in cover in the face of enemy small arms fire. This gives them flexibility in a short-ranged firefight.

I'm not going to vote for fire warriors in a "best troops choice" competition, here, but at 10 points, they seem reasonably priced for what they're capable of doing - which is handling some surprisingly tough things at surprisingly long ranges with nothing but small arms.

Were I to come across a tau player who started off a 1500 point list with 72 fire warriors would probably make me cringe.

@Culler

You are assuming that my Fire Warriors would be left to handle your boys one-on-one.

To the rest of the thread:

Why is it so hard for some of you to understand that I am not advocating Fire Warriors as the be-all end-all of a Tau army, but rather that one should look at them a little more closely to see what other uses they may have, in CONJUCTION with other units, such as Crisis Teams, Broadsides, Kroot, etc.

I mean no offense by this, but it is now obvious to me that one of two things has happened. Either A.) I failed to write the original post in such a way as to make it obvious what I meant; or B.) That public school systems worldwide are so completely broken that they are failing to properly teach reading comprehension.

Sorry for that rant, this will be last that I address this specific issue that see going on with some posts in this thread.

Fire Warriors aren't bad, but I don't think they're overwhelmingly good either. For that same cost you can get 10 Dire Avengers with a tricked out exarch who, while having a shorter range, are better at shooting and can tie up marines in CC. And that's Eldar, and if your jealous of Eldar, you have a problem, no offense to all the Eldar players out there.

The main problem with fire-warriors is that it is far to easy to get into CC these days, and once an opponent does, it becomes difficult to contain the threat. 5th edition armies sport a level of fire power that Tau still can't keep up with, even if Tau are supposed to be *the* shooting army. Tau are quickly falling to the bottom of the heap as the other armies get updated.

Shas'O...Crap wrote:@Kroot Loops

Thanks for the info on the Splinter Rifle. 4+ poisoned is nifty, but I wouldn't call it 'better' than the Pulse Rifle, though it would be more effective against a Monstrous Creature or other similarly high toughness models, it would less effective against, say, Space Marines, or even my Fire Warriors, for that matter.

They are because they are equipped by BS 4 troops. .66 to hit and .5 to wound = .5 to hit and .66 to wound. Against T3 you are correct *except* that the special weapons that can be taken allows them to put out a higher torrent of fire (if chosen)

Your permutations on the Storm Bolters while intriguing, aren't of much use at the moment due to the fact that the Codex has yet to be released for Grey Knights. They could cost 30pts/model, maybe more if the rumors of 'Annointed Armor" are true, but that's a differnet topic.

The GK codex is out for preview, GK are 20 points a model, and if I recall correctly psybolt ammo is a 5 point upgrade for the squad.

Yes, armies have gotten obscenely fast in 5th Ed, however, I think your failing to take into account my tactics with regards to my other units. I started this thread with it being specifically about the Fire Warrior, and it's use. An entire army of nothing but Fire Warriors would not last long at all. If you check out the Battle Report that I linked in this thread, you will see how I use them. Before you say anything regarding my opponents list in those two battles, bear in mind they were atypical for him, he was trying something out, and it went well for him in the first battle, but not the second.

No, I haven't seen what two Thunderfire Cannons would do, but it does sound nasty, I'll have to let my brother know, as he plays Space Marines.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on whether or not my Suits, etc. would make you pay for concentrating on my Fire Warriors, I contend they will, you contend they won't, and neither of us will change the other's mind, and that's acceptable to me.

Personally, I don't use Pathfinders that much, and when I have, I have had mixed resluts with them, frankly I think they are overrated except in higher points games, but other players mileage may vary.

Tau are one of the most tactically-intense armies in the game. You have to be unconventional, or completely boring to be succesful, my preferred method is unconventional, but that doesn't make it any less valid, just different. With proper tactics and initial placement, such as in cover, out of Line of Sight from something nasty (Thunderfire Cannon), knowing when to move your static gun-line, screening forces etc. You're post insinuates that I don't have a way to deal with the things you mentioned, I do, but that is not what this thread is for. Otherwise, I would've called it "How to win a game with nothing but Fire Warriors", and been laughed right off of DakkaDakka.

The intended purpose of this thread WAS to discuss the Fire Warrior and the potential uses you can employ with them, i.e. unconventional thinking. It was NOT about tactics to deal with Open-topped Fast Transports.

We can agree to disagree. My point wasn't that there are no way to deal with things, only that the fragility of the FW off sets the pulse rifle. You don'y have to agree, that's fine. I don't feel you can adequately discuss the merit of a unit in the game without looking at the game as a whole, which is my point about the lack of fire points on the Dfish.

On the note of boring play styles, I agree to a point. I enjoy playing Tau while crazily maneuvering around the board trying to avoid assaults and shoot down enemy squads. castling my tau with three layers of kroot bubble wrap and parking piranha in front of the other army, or taking three units of long fangs, MSU wolf guard with CML, landspeeders with CML, and after deployment the game consists of rolling dice for 25+ missiles... I'd rather spend my time doing something else. It is just a preference however.

Wow! Only 20pts for Grey Knights! I can hear the cries of OP already, lol!

That Space Wolf army sounds fun, even with all the missle rolls.

In my opinion the unconventionl lists are more fun to play, and they have the added benefit of helping to sharpen your overall tactical repetoire.

Grey Knights now have the best basic weapon in the game a nice Assault 2 24" range weapon which can depending on squad size can cost between 2 and 4 points a model to make the weapon S:5 AP:5. Granted taken at the cheapest a unit of them with Psybolts will cost 120 points, but let's see how an equal squad of fire warriors does against the Strike squad.

Assuming that they each meet at 30" then which ever squad shots first will in with an equal points cost. However they also have other options like equipping cheap Psycannons and firing them from the top of a Rhino. The Tau have nothing to offer in this regard unless they want to buy a bonding knife or a marker drone, they can mech up, but they they can basically be ignored as a lone fish is no real threat to anything when even a GK Rhino can put out S:5 AP:5 shots these days.

In all, the Tau are just out of date and need work.