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well i was reading lexicanum and it said the alpha legion still said things like for the empeor and that Luther said he attacked the lion because he was waiting to see who whould win the heresy and side with them. can anybody shed some light on this.

Dark Angels have lost a few to chaos. ( Some fallen turned traitor ).
Alpha Legion is stuck in plans inside plans... So who knows? Certainly examples like Voldorius ( demon prince ) hint at Alphas turning traitor.
Maybe some did not.

This, like much of the good parts of 40K, is both the truth and a lie.

I'm thinking more and more that the HH books are attempting to establish that neither the Fallen nor the Loyalist DA turned to Chaos and that Luther is being manipulated by the Chaos Gods purely through his loyalty to Caliban over the Imperium.

It would then ring somewhat true that the Lion is a "traitor" from a certain point of view in that he "betrayed" his planet to the Imperium and by siding with his father over his Calibanite brothers.

I have no doubt that is what he thinks is motivating him, and indeed is, at first anyway.

But once you open yourself up to thinking like that, and once you start to "dabble", no matter how noble or righteous your initial reason was, chaos worms its way into you and.. well... you fall.

A common theme in 40K is the road to Chaos is paved with good intentions.

Half of the DA chapter turned to Chaos, simply because of their loyalty to Luther rather than 'Hmmmm... Chaos...' etc. And alpha legion, you can't tell what they're thinking at all, they're just a bunch of messes.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:A common theme in 40K is the road to Chaos is paved with good intentions.

QFT very, very much.

Yall are definetely saying some things that dont ring bells to me. For example it does state that upon the lions return his ships were fired upon by luther. So yes i would say luther was the traitor. Reading through the novels to it clearly states that the DA were on the eastern fringe and due to the violence of the fighting that took place there vessels were not capable of conducting a jump through the warp. So are DA in general chaotic i would believe not. Were some tainted yes thats what the fallen are. Has almost every chapter had some form of taint or corruption from chaotic beings. Yes for the most part. So why the continous debates on whether or not the DA are traitors?

I believe both have half traitors, and half loyalists as both sides fight each other constantly.

The Loyalists of the Alpha Legion are in hiding waiting until they are needed.

And the Fallen Angels have gone insane because they have been lost for so long.

Astelan, one of Luther's lieutenants, justified giving the order to fire on The Lion by arguing that El'Jonson was himself treacherous. There seems to be some truth to that, at any rate El'Jonson was himself rather untrusting and instilled this in his men by dint of his policies.

El' Jonson did lead a covert strike on a forge world that would have crippled Horus' ability to breach the imperial palace. That world had a depot with some unique siege engines in storage. The lion seized the engines... and promptly turned them over to Perturabo. In the end, the only others who knew about the Lion's brilliant strategic victory for the Emperor were the World Eaters and the Iron Warriors.

He never was a good judge of the hearts of men.

Meanwhile, Luther and Astelan were encountering some real problems with Imperial administration of Caliban. The people were herded into arcologies, and suffered from inadequate living conditions and bureaucratic indifference. The remnants of the Calibanite nobility attempted a coup, and worse still a coven of Chaos worshipers among the Terrans who were trying to raise a daemon lord sealed within Caliban.

By the time la resistance and the heretics were put down the planet was a mess, and Luther had had his fill of offworlders, including Jonson. He had become a sorcerer in his search for a means to defeat the Imperium and save the people of Caliban, and probably from the moment Astelan opened fire things went much as they were described in Codex: Dark Angels.

As for the Alpha Legion, they are just treacherous, treacherous scum. I wish people would stop trying to argue that the legion has somehow remained a pure-hearted force seeking to undermine Chaos from within. Maybe somewhere there are loyal, pure Alpha Legionnaires. It's a big galaxy. But they aren't executing some intricate plan to save the universe from chaos. Nope, they definitely aren't.