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Disclaimer: Please keep the thread free of the general flames and arguments. This thread is about Gandalf's trip to the beach and what the material can stand up to. If you would like to contribute or help focus this scenario, please contribute. If you want to crit everyone for 1000 hp with a wall of txt ranting/defending GW, make your own thread.

So I took a trip to the GW Bowie Bunker in MD today to pick myself up a Finecast Gandalf. Basically there have been a lot of myths out there and lots of 'unknowns' like paint stripping so I am willing to give it a test and see what happens.

The original Gandalf Experiment
Here is the original blog which reported the 'melting gandalf' which started close to 90% of the talk on the net, very snopes-worthy:
http://thefrontlinegamer.blogspot.com/2011/06/dont-leave-finecast-in-sun.html

A fun quote:

I can not believe that this weekend somebody actually tried to argue with me that my Ganfdalf turned into a puddle of goo!!! The genius didn't even backdown when I told him it was actually my Ganfdalf.

So the original Gandalf may not have melted as some are reporting, but we are going to still see what happens with a sturdy good Gandalf! Game on!

Buying the Finecast:

The first issue out there is the high number of 'flaws' people are reporting. I decided to walk in and buy the first one on the peg. Fortunately there was only one Gandalf. The GW bunker had pretty much the full Finecast line. I decided to check out all the Ork and Orc/gobbo blisters because they would be models I am familiar with and I could see flaws easier. I was surprised to see that they were consistently quality and no where near the average of what I see on the internet.

So I asked the manager who was working "what's the deal with your finecast line?" And basically this is what he told me:

*Batch 0 was 'hurried', less QC and done by anyone available, not the regular experienced pourers. This was a bad decision by GW but they wanted a massive product push with deep inventory shipping.
*The GW Bowie Bunker follows the following policy:
-Every blister is inspected before put on the peg. *ANY* visible flaws or missing details are immediately sent back to GW.
-When people check out, they inform the customer to inspect the blister and recommend opening the box/blister before checkout. If damaged they find another blister/box and will open as many boxes/blisters needed to create a full unflawed model.
-If it is a gift, and they do not wish to open, they visually inspect and will take back flawed models without question.

I have to say from what I saw, this location was practicing what they preached and said batch 3 and on they have had much much much less flaws and issues. He didn't deny they existed, but was pretty honest about why they seemed to have a large number of flaws. If you don't know how to pour resin and cut back QC then yeah, it will be crap. It does sound like it isn't the material or the casting process but more the lack of QC and inexperienced casters. Not a valid excuse, but it does mean if GW corrects the actions the product will increase in quality.

If GW stores are actually treating flaws like this, then they would save money with good QC moving forward... This does seem to give hope that they have heard feedback and are stepping up QC and down the road it will be 'better'. Only time will tell but I will say if there is a finecast model I want, I will buy it from this particular store. I feel confident in the ability to get a flawless finecast model from them if I desire.

So after checking out my Gandalf, and seeing no visible flaws or issues, I packed him up and took him home.

Photos:







Notes:

Bubbles. A small one underneath horse Gandalf's foot. One on the handle of Horse Gandalf's sword. Other than that, visibly fine! Assembled, there are some parts which I would have to greenstuff to cover up the seams, but that is a sculpt issue, not a material issue.

I was surprised on how small the parts were, being an Ork player, I am used to much larger weapons and thicker objects and oversized parts. The staff kinda freaked me out!!! less than 1mm thick!

Finecast has give to it... The closest thing I can compare it to in plastic, is the bosspole from the plastic nob kit. That bit is too small for me as a modeler and I replaced it with paperclip for sturdiness, so this will be interesting to see how a finecast really thin staff holds up to things. Like GW plastic and PVC plastic rod, I CAN BEND IT if I apply pressure. I can bend metal too, I don't think anyone thinks this material is going to be as strong as steel. I am interested in what it takes to heat it to a point where it can be repositioned physically or droops due to gravity and if this happens at reasonable temps or if it requires extraordinary effort to cause it to bend. So when attempting to bend parts, it will go in order of thickness:

*staff
*sword
*horsey leg
*finecast sprue

The experiment:

The two major things I want to see is how badly this material warps compared to plastic and how it handles paint stripping compared to plastic. Lots of assertions have been put out there and since for me personally, I want to know the limits of finecast for my own use. I know some people will be unwilling to accept Finecast if it can't withstand an open flame and some will accept it if it melts to a puddle at room temperature. I am not trying to define what is 'acceptable' as everyone has their own standards... I am only trying to find out the limits.

Here is what I am going to do:

*Foot Gandalf will sit on my car's dashboard (Black 2008 Prius with no tint and a big sunny dashboard)
*Horse Gandalf will go in a Games Workshop model case smooshed between foam. This case will go in the trunk of my car.
*I will drive my car to the beach (Ocean City Maryland) where it will be in the sun for about 5 days. (Predicted to average around 86 degrees, so this would be low summer heat IMHO)

When it is done, I will see what they look like. Will they droop? Will they warp? Will they be smooshed in the figure case? Will they stay straight? Who knows?

Depending on the results, I will attempt to recreate the situation on hotter days as well as other scenarios like 'Room temp indoors on a window sill' and 'under tap water heat'.

Happy 4th of July everyone! Or Happy Monday and regular weekend for you international folks!

Good luck! If I didn't have to drop tons of money on school and my car right now, I would buy a blister just to throw in an oven at work. And maybe test stuff like the hardness.

Has anyone ever thought of using the excess sprue material rather than giving GW your money in order to show everyone they have a faulty product?

Absolutionis wrote:Has anyone ever thought of using the excess sprue material rather than giving GW your money in order to show everyone they have a faulty product?

It's more fun to have a melted Gandalf than it is to have melted sprue.

Plus he can just return it and say it melted if there's an issue

Last night, in a heated thread, I popped a Liche Priest in an equally heated Overn...266F.

And do you know what happened?


Now. Nada. Zilch. Well, the plastic base went all wonky, but the Liche Priest is fine.

That's right, Finecast survives tempratures inimical to human life.

Absolutionis wrote:Has anyone ever thought of using the excess sprue material rather than giving GW your money in order to show everyone they have a faulty product?

Sprue is a lot thicker than most model parts, meaning it would likely survive temperatures that thinner components may not.

It's also the problem that sprue doesn't maintain the same internal stress as say a rearing horse. It's that stress (gravity acting on the horses body, only supported by the thin back legs) that causes the sagging. Heat just softens the material to let that happen faster. Resin will naturally sag over a long period of time.

Interesting experiment, i look foward to seeing the results.

Life's a beach, and then you fry.

Happy for your poor Liche King Mr M, you rotter mistreating him like that in the name of science.
I rather suspect that as was said elsewhere that the resin batches have been inconsitent in the mixing.

So all should be well once they repair the damaged moulds.

If the resin won't soften in a hot oven how are people to reverse warpages on the components?

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Life's a beach, and then you fry.

Gandalf wrote:Fry you fools!

Okay maybe I got that one wrong....

Gandalf should at least have been given a knotted hankie made out of GS

Kilkrazy wrote:If the resin won't soften in a hot oven how are people to reverse warpages on the components?

I think the original contention was that Finecast will "melt" in high temperatures. I can't imagine that being true. My guess is it will soften some.

Are you going to include a plastic model as well, for comparison?

Aye, but when exposed to very high temperatures apparently it doesn't do a lot. My limited understanding of plastics chemistry doesn't tell me why that might be.

$33?!?!?!?!?!????? Holy feth, thats crazy. I dont normally complain about GW prices, but wow.

HAHA for the partworks Gandalf on Shadowfax for a fiver!

oh and welcome to our world Madfer!

Some quick notes:

*Finecast Sprues are thick. REALLY thick. Shadowfax's legs and Gandalfs sword/staff are waaaaaaaay thinner and more realistic of true models than sprue. I can almost guarantee I could leave a sprue in direct heat and it wouldn't droop under gravity the way parts on real models will. The original Gandalf actually collapsed under his own weight. If heat can reduce the model to that level, then the sword, the staff and even the horse should 'droop' through being exposed to heat... not heat AND pressure.

*I plan on using the sprues for the first round of simple green paint removal.

*Personally, I see a distinction between heating resin to bend back into shape, and something getting so soft it melts under its own weight. I know other plastics and resins CAN be heated to temperatures where I can bend it and if hot enough will go friggin warp with no external force. What I want to know is will Finecast do this under exposure to reasonable temps like in my car (140 degrees and under) or does it need deliberate heat exposure and pressure? (150-200)

*I will build a plastic model out of bitz that has similar parts and thicknesses. I will also include some PVC plasticrod parts. I think the Nob Bosspole is the bit I will use for droop factor to compare to the staff.

Good experiment. Looking forward to the results, no matter what the outcome is.

My feeling is the plastic will be fine but the superglue might crack, and the Finecast will sag\droop slightly but won't melt or distort in a significant way. But, we'll see!

Mr Mystery wrote:Last night, I popped a Liche Priest in a heated thread

If it can withstand the heat of a Dakkadebate it can withstand anything!

Meet Barry the ork! He thinks he is cool like Gandalf!

Barry is GW plastic, LIGHT GREY about 6 years old?

He is holding a PVC plastic rod the same length and diameter of Gandalf's staff

He is also holding new GW plastic (dark grey) in a bit as close to the thickness as I could find. It is a bosspole from the NOBZ boxed set. Not perfect, but the best I could do. I don't think GW plastic makes parts any thinner than this, I checked some wires on the Deffdred sprue and this is as thin as it gets. So this is the best comparison I could do.



So that is two other common modeling materials for comparison in any tests run.

TEST 1: Sunny day!

So I woke up to see a super sunny day and 80+ degrees at 8am. So I threw our 3 heroes into the 'test scenario' as a pre-beach experiment. You can see how they are sitting. I will go out around 1pm so that will be 4 solid hours in the heat. We will see what the outside temp is around 1pm and I will take photos!

Not perfect, but a good preliminary test. If it melts here, then we got trubbas! But it is a nice pre-beach experiment.

Watching this with interest.

I really like what you're doing here nkelsch. I look forward to seeing your results.

nkelsch, you get a very big from me for performing this test. Seems very objective, has pics, and I love the added humor in the post. I am really looking forward to the end results, whatever they may be.

Mad4Minis wrote:$33?!?!?!?!?!????? Holy feth, thats crazy. I dont normally complain about GW prices, but wow.

I started reading this thread with a real interest in seeing how the resin would hold up. As soon as I saw the price tag on the blister, all I could think about was the price. One mounted Gandalf and one on foot for $33?

Price aside, this has been an informative and entertaining thread.

You should try it in Vegas, it was 107 yesterday. It gets hot enough in cars to make lighters blow up among other crazy things. It still take direct sunlight to cause any damage to miniatures though.

I was thinking of doing something similar, but I'm in England and the weather's unpredictable at best - I was going to do a test along the lines of 'What happens to a Finecast mini if you accidentally drop it into your cup of tea' etc. I'd like to see a proper scientific test but am watching yours with interest, a big from me.

When you get to the beach, if it still hasn't turned to gloop, try burying it in the sand

My prediction is for the Finecast to be ok (if it starts melting or Gandalf's staff goes all floppy then there's no hope and Finecast will need medication for premature disintegration ), but if you go to move it or put any kind of pressure on it it will bend a lot easier than normal. It'll be interesting to see at what temp they do start to have problems. I think the Orc and other materials will be fine.

Then there's the final question...will it blend?

BladeWalker wrote:You should try it in Vegas, it was 107 yesterday. It gets hot enough in cars to make lighters blow up among other crazy things. It still take direct sunlight to cause any damage to miniatures though.

I would like to try this with all temps... Then people can decide their own risk and impact for their region. If we have issues in my more 'mild' summer temps then that shows harsher temps will have more issues. If my results show nothing, I can keep trying to expose to hotter and hotter days.

Disclaimer....the Liche Priest was predictably wibbly when he came out the Oven last night, decidedly more pliable than when not lightly baked.

Flicked the top of the staff, and there was definite flex, but it went back up (ooooer!). Minute or so later, it had cool down nicely. And he's now absolutely fine(cast)!

You know, I made up my mind this morning to not post in another finecast thread for the sake of my sanity.

This one looks fun though, so I've just ordered a straitjacket.

Yeah, I've been a bit apprehensive about trying any Finecast, and not just for the price. Gonna keep an eye on this test.