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Hi, after reading threw the monolith entry in the necron codex, i noticed something; what it says in the codex: ... any weapon attacking the monolith will roll for ap using its UNAUGMENTED strength... p.21 Codex: necrons, courtesy of GW

Does this mean that power klaws, fists etc. are at EX: S5 for a PK nob? If so i think it should be added to the faq!

-Hugs for the hug god!


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Sorry just got answered somewhere else they DO have double strength

Yes, because that is the weapon's strength.

A power Klaw on a nob hits a monolith at strength 8. you get the 2x bonus, but do not get +1 S for furious charge.

Yeh, thats something I didn't add. No furious charge bonus.

It is in the FaQ btw

No you get furious charge. And you get double too. The monolith protects against weapons that are extra strong against it, not weapons that makes the use extra strong. The wording in the codex is for weapons that get additional dice for armor penetration rolls.

So a S4 Powerclaw Nob that assaults a monolith hits at Strength 9. Double for a power klaw, and the +1 for furious charge(because that is added after the double)

No The +1 for Furious Charge is an augmentation to the strength of the weapon. Unaugmented Strength only against the Monolith, so no Furious Charge bonus. The Weapon is Strength 8, so it strikes at Strength 8 (in that example).

And enter the discussion over whether it is the users str or the weapon's str in CC.. AGAIN...

For the love of God look at the Necrons FAQ before you make 20 fething threads about something next time.

Indeed, this question and it's answer is explicitly covered by the Necron FAQ.

That's why right after posting the thread i edited it saying sorry about that, so dont start bringing that up

Chrysis wrote:No The +1 for Furious Charge is an augmentation to the strength of the weapon. Unaugmented Strength only against the Monolith, so no Furious Charge bonus. The Weapon is Strength 8, so it strikes at Strength 8 (in that example).

You get Furious charge, it's a strength bonus to the model, not that weapon.

No you don't. Specifically stated in the FAQ. You gain no bonus in any case unless it is specifically stated in either the codex or an FAQ.

No, the FAQ does not say that. What the rules do tell you is that you dont get modifieres to the weapons strength. Good job furious charge alters the models strength then. WHich is why powerfists work at all.

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, the FAQ does not say that. What the rules do tell you is that you dont get modifieres to the weapons strength. Good job furious charge alters the models strength then. WHich is why powerfists work at all.

There's a flaw in your logic. If you're using the weapon, the weapon strikes at Str 8. If you're using the model, the model strikes at str 5, by your logic. So you still wouldn't get the Furious Charge bonus with a powerfist, only because the Furious Charge bonus augments the model and not the weapon, and the weapon's strength is what's being used.

Yes, and the weapons strength is defined as doubling the users strength. It is not S8, it is whatever the users strength is, doubled.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, the FAQ does not say that. What the rules do tell you is that you dont get modifieres to the weapons strength. Good job furious charge alters the models strength then. WHich is why powerfists work at all.

There's a flaw in your logic. If you're using the weapon, the weapon strikes at Str 8. If you're using the model, the model strikes at str 5, by your logic. So you still wouldn't get the Furious Charge bonus with a powerfist, only because the Furious Charge bonus augments the model and not the weapon, and the weapon's strength is what's being used.

Please, go pick up a sword in real life and tell me the strength of it. Now tell me the strength of it with a body builder holding it.

The strength of the sword is 0. The strength of the wielder is varied. A "person" is not a weapon, and furious charge does not modify a "weapons" strength. It modifies a users strength. Living metal says absolutely nothing about "model" or "user" strength in the rules. Only Weapon strength. And, since we have determined that a sword has no strength, it is not modified.


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nosferatu1001 wrote:Yes, and the weapons strength is defined as doubling the users strength. It is not S8, it is whatever the users strength is, doubled.

Which could be 6, in the hands of a guardsmen. Or 10 in the hands of a necron lord. Or 12 (if it could go that high) in the hands of many monstrous creatures. (Just furthering your point, Nos).


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Sabet wrote:No you don't. Specifically stated in the FAQ. You gain no bonus in any case unless it is specifically stated in either the codex or an FAQ.

Uh, the FAQ simply states that power fists and other weapons of the sort do function as normal against a monolith. The FAQ actually says "nothing" about furious charge, because...*see comment above*

Nice sophistry there, but let's take you at your word then

The strength of the sword is 0, so all you would get is 0 + 1d6, regardless of the user's strength?

It's pretty obvious that this isn't what the rule intends, but as it has been argued that the weapon, not the user, is the inmportant thing by some...

They list living creatures as 'weapons' under the listing on Living Metal. Monstrous creatures do not get additional penetration, and are listed as weapons. Therefore, logically, non-monstrous creatures are weapons also.

Personally i think that the weapon confers special rules on the user, with the user's attack being an armed attack with that weapon using the user's strength. In effect the user's S is a weapon attack, with no additional abilites conferred by the weapon being swung. They are one and the same.

Some weapons confer additional abilities, such as doubles strength, poison, a specific Str score in melee etc.

Not all models even have a CC weapon. They are still able to attack in CC. Why? Because it is the user that is the attack, with their body being the weapon.


You can RAW argue that the user and the weapon are seperate, but if that's true then why do the weapons confer rules on the model, rather than having a statline themselves?

Ascalam wrote:Nice sophistry there, but let's take you at your word then

The strength of the sword is 0, so all you would get is 0 + 1d6, regardless of the user's strength?

I will stop you right here because, no, per the rules you use the models strength in close combat. The shiny piece of metal they are holding just happens to be the product used to exert such force. Though obviously it is not always necessary.


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Ascalam wrote:They list living creatures as 'weapons' under the listing on Living Metal. Monstrous creatures do not get additional penetration, and are listed as weapons. Therefore, logically, non-monstrous creatures are weapons also.

Please note, I said "person" not "anyone" or "creatures" or whatever else. A monstrous "creature" is not a "person". Not even the dreadknight.

can we not get into a discussion on this. there must be thousands of threads already.

Ascalam wrote:
You can RAW argue that the user and the weapon are seperate, but if that's true then why do the weapons confer rules on the model, rather than having a statline themselves?

The same reason that any piece of wargear does. Do you consider a destroyer body separate from the necron lord model? Do you consider an iron halo separate from the model? No, you don't. But they confer bonuses that are used in CC and sometimes out of CC as well, so why don't they have a statline all their own? Because, it's not how the rules are written.

The same way that the rules don't say furious charge gives a weapon a +1 strength bonus. It gives it to the model. The item wielded to convey such strength doesn't matter.

If you'd read my whole post you'd see that i was using that to outline the fact that it IS the user's strength that's relevant If you're going to quote, then quote the next tine too..

The Ctan, Farsight and Fuegan are sad that they are unpersons

A RL example. Some martial artists are considered to be lethal weapons by law, due to their deadly level of skill and strength.


It's pretty clear what the rules are intended to mean. This is just another transparent attempt to RAW your way past Living Metal, so i'll leave you to it.

Ascalam wrote:A RL example. Some martial artists are considered to be lethal weapons by law, due to their deadly level of skill and strength.

This is not actually true.

but is a common misconception. If you are trained to 1st dan or above in most martial arts you are supposed to declare this if fighting, and bizarrely get in more trouble if you use a closed fist than an open one despite the latter being much deadlier, in general.

Ascalam - so, logical falacy time. You are assuming everyone is a weapon, despite the rules on page 42 not stating so. And everyone does have a CCW, even if they dont have a weapon listed - again, part of thebasic rules.

Altering the users strength /= modifying the weapons strength, as the definition of the weapons strength does not alter. It is a variable.

Masterslowpoke- yes it is. Sorry.

I deal with court docs on a daily basis. There have been cases where a martial artist has been charged with assault with a deadly weapon when unarmed.

Nos- weapons all confer their abilities on the user. It is the user that attacks, using his strength bonus, and modifiers. I contend that the user and his weapon are ine entity for CC attacks, with some CC weapons conferring different abilities on the attack.

As MC's are listed as weapons with an additional dice by the rule (despite not being listed as such on pg 42, then so must everyone else be, logically, but without the additional dice. It's astonishingly simple.

Since you've repeatedly ignored the premise i doubt you'll try this time. Logically it is consistent.

It would have been so much simpler of GW had just put attack instead of weapon

Despite the rules stating you use your CCW when attacking in close combat, you'd be right.

Oops, there it is.

It is a fallacy to assume that a specific rule stating MCs are X applies to anything otehr than MCs.

Not repeatedly ignored, repeatedly shown the premise to be false.

The premis is not false, but the rule is so piss-poorly written that it makes no difference

Your argument, as far as i can see it, is that you can add all the mods you like onto the user, without it counting as modifying the strength of the weapon (as per strict RAW).

My argument is that any attack in cc (with a weapon if you have one) IS the weapon. Certain exotic weapons can confer additional abilities to the user, and apply to all his attacks, not just those provided by the weapon he is holding. The CC attacks ARE weapons, regardless of what weapon you happen to be swinging.




Regarding the logic- here it is:


Monstrous creatures are weapons with an additional d6. Creatures are therefore classified as weapons. Monstrous ones get an additional D6. Non monstrous creatures are weapons without the additonal D6, as creature attacks have been classified as weapons. I'll leave it there, as it's causing more argument than it really needs to.


I think i've had enough of the argument, so i'll withdraw from this one. It reminds me a little too much of the 'are grenades weapons' argument and the 'what does 'no matter what' really mean argument...