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So I just finished reading the Infinity rulebook, and am ready to start building armies! I always buy my starter armies for new games in pairs, so I can have a list ready for another player to play. I was thinking of keeping it pretty standard, at first: PanOceania and YuJing as my starters. Where is a good place to start with them? What is the current Metagame with Infinity? Do I load up on grunts, set up a mechanized TAG force, or focus on elites? How important are the specialist types (Hacker/Medic/engineer). Also, what is a good sized point limit for a starter army?
I have a background in 40k and Warmachine, so any analogies to these systems will be understood and appreciated...
Thanks, and I look forward to the input!

The first advice I'll give you is to forget everything you have learned in warmachine and 40k, if you try to play Infinity like either you will be very disappointed in the game

Second, there is no metagame per say, of course there are some matchups that can be unfavourable, like say a team built solely around camouflage comes up against a team built around multispectral visors, which are devices that mostly ignore camouflage, it's going to be a tough fight, but the camo team is by no means defenseless, nor will they be a walkover.
Each of the styles you suggested have their strenghts and weaknesses and a crafty opponent will be able to exploit them to the max.

Grunts are "weak" and will have trouble against template and AoE weapons as well as elite troops. You can also end up with so many they will end up getting in the way of their own people.

T.A.G/remote forces are vulnerable to hackers and things that immobilise, and will have few orders as well as hard to hide and gain cover on.

Elites will have few orders and every loss will be felt. You have to remember that even a grunt can kill Rambo in this game.

Hackers depends on your playstyle, but are required for some scenarios, which is why at tournaments you have multiple lists.
They are good at protecting your hacker vulnerable things from other hackers though.

Engineers and medics are for if you have models you would like to stay in the field for longer, they aren't required and often they will swallow up a lot of orders trying to get the downed models up again.

In the end, go with the models you like the look of and then play around with the army builder to see how many points they get up to. A good place to start is 150-200 points and then moving up as well as buying models which allows you to use different strategies.

It's very very hard to build a force that's bad since their performance will depend mostly on how you use them and not what their stats dictate.

The great thing about Infinity is that you can pretty much buy the models you like for a specific faction and they'll do well for you.

In terms of metagame, linked troops have huge advantages and some sectorial lists are going to do pretty well. Not all sectorial lists are built the same. I think the Yu Jing ones are pretty weak, where the Pan-O and Haqq ones are really strong.

In the end though, Infinity is a lot less about list building and a lot more about what happens on the table. It's also the kind of game where you really need to play it a bit before you can really have any idea of what's going to work well.

A lot of people like taking doctors because models have a chance of getting back up again when a doctor is on the table. If you take robots/TAGs, then an engineer is great also. My suggestion if you want to field engineers/doctors, is to take remotes with G:servant so that they can be super effective. The same holds true for hackers, that if you want to use them, you should have at least one other model who can act as a repeater. Hackers are a lot more limited in their uses, but there a bunch of scenarios where hackers are super useful.

I found these videos super helpful and you should try and watch them. They're also pretty entertaining and the Corvus Belli ones have really nicely painted minis, great scenery, and fun special effects.

http://www.beastsofwar.com/infinity/quick-start-infinity-infinity-week-discussion/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ogtjm7UspSQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24DJrs3b9p4&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ru3kO2_FKc&feature=related

Linked troops have weaknesses as well. If you have someone that can take a few shots to the face, he can just ARO against the other members of the team.

There is no end all be all in Infinity, once you learn something's weakness, you can deal with it.

Ok, so it seems much more like Warmachine than 40k, in that the balance is pretty even, as far as the models go. I give my noobs pretty much the same advice for that game. Cool! I will play around with the lists, and post one up here for youze guys to peruse. Thanks, so far!

CATACLYSMUS wrote:Ok, so it seems much more like Warmachine than 40k

Its more like real life combat...
You see someone move you shoot, if you stand in the open you will get shot....

Buy some starters, there is everything in it to make good base for each army....
At least you're basic troopers are in it

I bought some starters and then the models I liked.

One Infinity tip: forget about close combat in this game. Forget about the models carrying big swords (wich are usually the coolest).
Like in real life, it is always more effective to shoot at someone with a gun than trying to chop him with a sword.

So, in Infinity maybe you may have one single CloseCombat fight during a battle, or sometimes never. Combat in this game is rolling a single D20 dice against the rolling dice of your oponent, while shooting is rolling the whole burst of your gun (3 or 4 dices) against a single dice from your enemy.
Shooting is better than Combat.

So, this badass melon-fether here:

He has a Boarding shotgun that is more efective than his sword.

And this charging scottish artificial Intelligence historical recreation amnesic inspiring idiot figure here:

Has a rifle that is better than his sword.

You will be tempted to go into combat becasue the miniaturtes with swords look awesome, but they all are better at shooting.

Who's the green guy? Is he from the CA?

He's the Yu Jing 'Oniwaban'. Master Ninja or some such. He has a mono-filament weapon, so he's one of the few guys who sometimes is more effective in CC than shooting.

Against something like the giant robot TAGs he can one-shot them in CC, getting to strike first. He kills a TAG as easily as a grunt with his CC weapon. Probably about a 50/50. Which is pretty impressive. His gun is definitely better against the vast majority of targets though.

Yuan Yuan without a chain rifle is better in CC then his shooting

Well...In close combat the oniwaban gives the other guy a -12 to shoot him in the face with his gun, and he does this after the oniwaban.

Even better when the other guy is a medium or heavy infantry guy so you might have to shoot him twice with the boarding shotgun that gives you a higher value of two on a D20 to cause damage (assuming the sword is a PH as damage -2 monofiliment close combat weapon like I think it is.)


On another note, make sure to review your army list before a game and make sure you know mechanically how they work and that you have everything together. I see a lot of cases on the internet of a player forget to bring camo markers and such. Infinity is a complex game with a lot of parts and forgetting rules in the middle of a game will slow it down a lot.

Raze wrote:Well...In close combat the oniwaban gives the other guy a -12 to shoot him in the face with his gun, and he does this after the oniwaban.

You can't shoot if you're in combat. Possibly you're thinking of the fact that in combat a pistol can be used as a close combat weapon, but you use CC not BS and there's no effect from the Oniwabans TO. So it's a straight CC roll. After the Oniwaban strikes first though as you said

Even better when the other guy is a medium or heavy infantry guy so you might have to shoot him twice with the boarding shotgun that gives you a higher value of two on a D20 to cause damage (assuming the sword is a PH as damage -2 monofiliment close combat weapon like I think it is.)

Mono-filament is a straight 12. So roll 12 or less on a D20 and you're dead. Whether you're the cheapest grunt or the stompiest TAG That's a nice advantage against multi-wound HI, especially ones with really good armour, as the mono-filament ignores it. Boarding shotgun halves armour, rounding up. Big advantage of BS is that you can roll 2 dice to attack instead of 1 (even if the target numbers are slightly worse) and you can ensure that if your opponent survives they're shooting back at -6 at least (for TO camo. Range/cover mods often cancel out). So against a Hsien HI with a MSV2, decent armour and 2 wounds you would imo be better off hitting them in CC, as they will survive your two boarding shotgun shots more often than that, and then paste you with their ARO due to the MSV2 ignoring your TO. It varies from matchup to matchup, which is nice - in most cases the boarding shotgun is more useful though.

well then, I've been flat out lied to on basic CC mechanics by somebody, fun stuff. Still, the first listed reaction for a defender on close combat details how you use a shooting weapon in close combat using your ballistic skill, and this is stated as shooting, shooting at a TO camo model confers a -6 to your BS, which you use if you fire your normal weapon, I remember reading about a -6 in a face to face roll to shoot during close combat, can't find it. granted, TO means you can take an opponent from behind so they don't get to do anything. unless that opponent has sixth sense, or in the oniwabain's case, sixth sense level two.

oh, and by the way we were both wrong on one thing.

Example: A Ninja declares a Charge (Mov + CC) at the unlucky
Fusilier Angus. Angus’ options are to react by Shooting or with CC.
If Angus waits until the Ninja engages in CC with him, this could
use his Martial Arts L3, and will perform a First Attack, a previous
Normal Roll. But, if Angus reacts by Shooting, this will be a Face to
Face Roll between the Ninja’s CC and Angus’ BS, because it occurs
before base contact.

So if you do shoot, martial arts L3 (and thus 4) first strike is not striking first.

"self addendum post"
Yes, I do see your point here, and it's probably better to save orders and just shoot somebody with the shotgun, but I really do believe that defeats the point of some ninja lord stomping around the battlefield.

Also, if anybody want's to talk mechanics, I'd suggest we head to the general discussion thread or PM it rather then fill this thread with irrelevant information.

Raze wrote:

if anybody want's to talk mechanics, I'd suggest we head to the general discussion thread or PM it rather then fill this thread with irrelevant information.

Fair enough but I think it's important to clear up everything you've said for any readers to avoid misleading them, as unfortunately it's mistaken.

The defender firing simultaneously that you are talking about is outside of CC. That is for the case of a model charging (walk to CC, followed by CC) and the defender shooting them before they reach it (still a FTF versus CC). Once in CC they cannot fire and pistols are used as close combat weapons with CC stat not BS.

The -6 for shooting is -6 for shooting INTO combat. By people outside of combat. People outside of combat shooting into combat at a Ninja will have -12 for TO and combat penalty. Models IN combat with the ninja will have no such penalties but cannot BS only CC (or dodge/sepsitor/hack).

TO also doesn't allow you to take an opponent from behind in CC - once engaged in CC models have a 360 degree arc so if a TO token walks up to you and hits you as the second part of its action you get to react simultaneously as they reveal as soon as they base you and you then have 360 degree vision. This is why the Ninjas have to have Martial Arts Lvl3 or higher - to let them strike first.

We also weren't mistaken about the martial first strike - that is in close combat as we were discussing. The case you are describing is outside of close combat, it's the walk up to CC. IE if the ninja starts in CC with somebody (ie is in close combat) the ninja strikes first. If the ninja starts outside as a model (not a token) then he can be shot as a FTF with his CC attack. If he is outside as a token then unless the target has a MSV3 he'll make it into combat and get to first strike too as he can't be shot.

I'm certain of all of this but happy to discuss in another thread if you like.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
To the original poster. I'd echo the suggestions of buying what you like the look of.

If you avoid trying to put too many of the really expensive models into the same list then you'll be fine. IE if you put a giant robot TAG and multiple heavies into the same list, you're going to really struggle for orders.

I almost never use engineers or doctors, even though one of my factions is Haqqislam. Some others adore doctors. They're well balanced - I generally bring an extra body with a gun instead of the doctor.

Engineers are good if you bring lots of remotes or have a TAG. They can rescue you from glue guns or fix those guys. Despite nomads being one of my factions I don't have many remotes, and seldom play TAGs so I rarely use engineers. Preferring an extra attacker Lots of people love engineers, also well balanced imo.

Hackers I do bring with my nomads. Regularly. With Haqqislam and CA I don't typically, but I also tend to bring few heavy infantry so I have much less to defend with them. I love light infantry, medium infantry and skirmishers generally, so hackers are less crucial than they would be if I was heavy infantry heavy.

It's good to have them but you can either proxy something else as one if you like, or proxy one of them as something else. I regularly use my haqqislam light infantry engineer as a ghulam with rocket launcher(panzerfaust) as there's no ghulam panzerfaust model out and the engineer has a cool box at his feet that looks like a case of weaponry to me

I think this should sum up the discussion nicely

Ok, when I wrote "take from behind" I Intended to mean "enter's the rear arc of a model and initiates CC without a reaction from being in a zone of control.". everything I posted was to do with the initial close combat reaction and action, not the sustained combat. I assumed discussion on the merit of a oniwaban in CC would refer to the initial order and used the words close combat instead of charge to refer to it.

I should have referred to martial arts 4 instead of TO. martial arts 4 makes the requirement sixth sense two to react to the oniwaban's marker as if it was not camouflage instead of sixth sense 1.

Sorry for the failure to communicate, and the general derp.

As is, the guidelines people use when choosing their infinity models is to buy whatever you think looks cool, proxying is widely accepted as many weapons and gear options don't exist yet in model form. so you shouldn't weigh your choices too heavily.

If you haven't seen any infinity tables yet they have a lot more terrain then other wargames. breaking Line of sight is a critical part of the game because of the range weapons have. open fields don't lend themselves well to fair games. having the lone belltower in the middle probably isn't a good ideal either due to people getting inside and having free reign on whats below them. don't expect armor to save you, anybody can be harmed by the basic rifle, so you need to keep to good cover.

Raze wrote:
If you haven't seen any infinity tables yet they have a lot more terrain then other wargames. breaking Line of sight is a critical part of the game because of the range weapons have. open fields don't lend themselves well to fair games. having the lone belltower in the middle probably isn't a good ideal either due to people getting inside and having free reign on whats below them. don't expect armor to save you, anybody can be harmed by the basic rifle, so you need to keep to good cover.

Good points. If you can see something you can usually kill it. Particularly if you have anything heavier than a rifle.

Let´s see some examples of Infinity tables.











All these are from this website Battle Reports, but they are in spanish.

Like the tables! Another rules question; I noticed that certain units have two ranged weapons. I was browsing in my rulebook, and couldn't find a clear explanation as to why this is an advantage. The model I looked at had two chain guns or some such. If the guns are identical, and each shoot action requires a short order, how does this make him mo bettah? Am I missing a rule in which each weapon can only be shot once per player turn? That would make the most sense, as a model equipped as mentioned would then be able to shoot twice in the same turn.

Also, are the terrain sets all custom made, or can you buy these from someone?

Most models which have duplicates of a weapon can shoot both weapons with one order. I know there's an Ariadna werewolf guy who can shoot two chainguns as well as a Combined Army TAG that can shoot two heavy flamethrowers. I don't what rule allows them to though.

There's a lot of terrain you can buy cheap and make out of paper or card stock and some of it is free. Here is a thread from the official Infinity boards with enough links to choke a monkey.

http://www.infinitythegame.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=603

If you have two of the same weapons your Burst is increased by 1.

The shots can still be made at different targets or at the same for extra hurt.

CATACLYSMUS wrote:Like the tables! Another rules question; I noticed that certain units have two ranged weapons. I was browsing in my rulebook, and couldn't find a clear explanation as to why this is an advantage. The model I looked at had two chain guns or some such. If the guns are identical, and each shoot action requires a short order, how does this make him mo bettah? Am I missing a rule in which each weapon can only be shot once per player turn? That would make the most sense, as a model equipped as mentioned would then be able to shoot twice in the same turn.

If you are talking about the Ariadnan Dogfaces, they can shoot one chain rifle in their Dogface form, and in their Dog Warrior form they can shot both chain rifles, in different directions if you want, with the same shooting order. This is stated in the last paragraph of the "Direct template weapons" section of the rulebook. Page 142 of the book, page 16 of the rules pdf file.

Other units wich have two or more different ranged weapons will have to choose what weapon they want to fire with the consumed order. For example, still in Ariadna, a Veteran Kazak with AP rifle and Light Flamethrower, will have to use one of them for a Shoot action, and would need a second Shoot action to shoot again or to shoot with the other one.

Where did you read that they can only shoot 1 of the rifles in their human form?
The part you refer to just say that if you have two template weapons, you gain +1 Burst, Dogfaces still have 2 chain rifles.

But the rule overall is:
If you have 2 of the same weapon, then you get +1 burst when shooting.
If you have 2 different weapons, you have to choose which one to use when shooting.

Yes, Quaade is correct.

Quaade wrote:Where did you read that they can only shoot 1 of the rifles in their human form?
The part you refer to just say that if you have two template weapons, you gain +1 Burst, Dogfaces still have 2 chain rifles.

But the rule overall is:
If you have 2 of the same weapon, then you get +1 burst when shooting.
If you have 2 different weapons, you have to choose which one to use when shooting.

Oops, you're right. I have just checked Chain rifle rules, Dogface-Dogwarrior profile and the Direct template weapons rules and there's nothing supporting what I said. I don't know how did I misundertood it. My apologies.