Scraplaunchers and pivoting.

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**Lordhat**

Can a Scraplauncher pivot in the shooting phase after it moves?

BRB Pg. 109 wrote: "......before you fire the war machine, pivot it to face your chosen target (this doesn't count as moving).

**agnosto**

It's a chariot, not a warmachine.

**Lordhat**

.

**HoverBoy**

agnosto wrote:It's a chariot, not a warmachine.

Quite helpfull eh

Anyway if it follows all the same shooting rules as a stone thrower then it must pivot.
I don't have the new OK book however and have no clue what it's rules say.

**Lordhat**

It's type: Chariot
Equipment:
Scraplauncher Catapult: The scraplauncher catapult is a stone thrower. (It also has the Move & Fire rule).

**HoverBoy**

And how does the scraplauncher catapult rules tell you to fire it.

**DukeRustfield**

Edit: woops, see below

**HoverBoy**

Seeing as it can pivot wherever it wants when moving, i think just shooting at stuff in the forward ark should work.

**RiTides**

According to this thread, asking the same question about a hellcannon pivoting and firing, I'd say no, right?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/361976.page

However, since it can "move and fire" you can just pivot it in the movement phase... but unless they FAQ it I don't see it being able to pivot in the shooting phase to face what it wants to shoot, RAW... just like the hellcannon can't, since it's not a warmachine.

**DukeRustfield**

I lied. They can pivot. So can hell cannons.

War machines have an entry that says during movement they behave like single models.

Single models:

"Units that consist of a single model, such as monsters, chariots......"

P. 27
"The one exception is that a single model can pivot on the spot as many times as it wishes over the course of its move. It can do so without penalty and so pivoting does not prevent models from marching, or even from shooting later in the turn."

P. 109
"Unless specified otherwise, all war machines weapons have the move or fire and slow to fire special rules."

So it was kind of just clarifying that it didn't have that. Though not really necessary since it's not a war machine...

**cowpow16**

So seeing that you are saying the hellcannon and the scrap launcher can therefor pivot and shoot.

Which sounds right.

**RiTides**

Can someone verify DukeRustfield's take there?

The "so pivoting does not prevent models... from shooting later in the turn" sounds quite promising. And it would only make sense...

Sorry to shoehorn in the hellcannon to this discussion but it's related and I really could use a final answer before a tourney in 2 weeks' time!

**DukeRustfield**

Just to reinforce, war machines:

"We assume that a war machine's crew are able to wheel or drag it short distances at a time. [snip] Use the crew's Movement characteristic to determine how far the war machine can move."

Ironblaster/Scraplauncher crew (gnoblars/Ogre) have no M characteristic listed. Because it's not a war machine. If you look at Empire war machines, all the crew have their M listed (3).

To get confusing with Hellcannons, the Chaos Dwarfs M IS listed (3). AND the Hellcannon's movement is listed (6). But again, a Hellcannon is not a war machine, it's a monster.

From the FAQ:
Q. Can the Hellcannon move and fire? (p66)
A. No.

Q. Can the Hellcannon Stand and Shoot against chargers? (p66)
A. No.

But really, I don't see how the Chaos Dwarf movement ever comes into play based on the text from the BRB. It's just there to add a layer of confusion. What's extra special funny is they are treated as Monsters and Handlers: "Some armies drive colossal beasts to battle, beastmasters hurrying at the monster's heels as they goad it into the foe." This is literally the case with Hellcannon because the cannon moves twice as fast as the handlers. But since you can't separate them, and the Dwarfs are really just markers, it's irrelevant.

-Ironblasters/Scraplaunchers. Can move 6. Can pivot infinite times during their move, including marching. Can move and fire.
-Hellcannons. Can move 6. Can pivot infinite times during their move, including marching. Cannot move and fire. Pivot presumably being a move operation.

**RiTides**

I can't quite tell from your final synopsis there... are you saying that you think it cannot pivot and fire?

-Hellcannons. Can move 6. Can pivot infinite times during their move, including marching. Cannot move and fire. Pivot presumably being a move operation.

That would make me, once again, a sad panda

. But maybe I'm misunderstanding your last sentence because up until that point it seemed you thought they could...

Edit: Also, sorry once again for the somewhat-threadjack

but it seems so related... kill 2 birds with 1 stone!

**Lehnsherr**

P. 27
"The one exception is that a single model can pivot on the spot as many times as it wishes over the course of its move. It can do so without penalty and so pivoting does not prevent models from marching, or even from shooting later in the turn."

That quote is talking strictly movement phase. The number of times you pivot, or even pivoting in general does not prevent you from shooting. However, that is different than pivoting to face your target to fire. A Hellcannon can therefore pivot during the movement phase and still fire.

"Before you fire the war machine, pivot it to face your chosen target (this doesn't count as moving)." Page 109

War Machines have a rule that allows them to pivot in the shooting phase. It has nothing to do with behaving like a single model, and everything to do with that very specific ruling on how to fire a War Machine.

Now, the only confusing part would be the FAQ.

If it fires like a Stone Thrower then does it not also get to pivot before it fires, as that is how a Stone Thrower fires?

That is the question that needs an answer. I would tend to think that if the Scraplauncher "is" a Stone Thrower, then the only way you can fire it is by following the rules for how to fire one in the BRB, which allow you to pivot it before you fire. It may not be classified as a War Machine, but if you aren't looking at the Stone Thrower section (and at the War Machine section) then you would never fire one to begin with.

Now from reading the earlier post by Lordhat, the Scraplauncher can move and fire, whereas a Hellcannon cannot. So a Scraplauncher and a Hellcannon are not a perfect comparison.

A Hellcannon, if it says something similar to "It fires as a Stone Thrower" I would tend to agree that you could indeed pivot it during the shooting phase.

**DukeRustfield**

Lehnsherr wrote:That quote is talking strictly movement phase. The number of times you pivot, or even pivoting in general does not prevent you from shooting. However, that is different than pivoting to face your target to fire. A Hellcannon can therefore pivot during the movement phase and still fire.

"Before you fire the war machine, pivot it to face your chosen target (this doesn't count as moving)." Page 109

War Machines have a rule that allows them to pivot in the shooting phase. It has nothing to do with behaving like a single model, and everything to do with that very specific ruling on how to fire a War Machine.

Any text from War Machines is irrelevant because it's not a war machine. It's a Monsters and Handlers. Forget everything that is not on p.27 (Single Model) or not in the description or not in the FAQ. And it is FAQ'd to say it can't move and fire. Only war machines can pivot to to face enemies and fire. Again, it's not a war machine. There are units (Cygors, Thundertusks, etc) that are also monsters and happen to have some Stone Thrower-like abilities. There's no way they could just pivot around during shooting. They are of type Monster.

-Scraplauncher and Ironblaster can pivot as much as they want in movement, actually move forward/march, and fire. They cannot pivot during shooting phase.

-A Hellcannon can pivot as much as they want in movement, actually move forward/march. If it does so, it cannot fire. They cannot pivot during shooting phase.

Scraplaunchers/Ironblasters/Hellcannons/Cygors/Thundertusks/etc are just regular shooters. They need LOS. If they did not acquire that during their movement phase, they don't have it. For most of those units, it's pretty easy, since they got infinite pivots (unless the enemy moved later and made them lose LOS). But a Hellcannon cannot move and shoot. Pivots are move operations for Monsters and Monsters & Handlers.

**Lehnsherr**

I realize they are not war machines. However, forgetting any rule that is under the war machine section leaves you with a weapon that is unable to fire.

If it fires like a stone thrower, the only place you will find rules for that is in the Stone Thrower section, which is a subset of the War Machine section.

On top of that, the Stone Thrower section itself makes no mention of how to pick a target, check LoS and all that stuff. So if you ignore the War Machine section, and refer to only the Stone Thrower section, you still can't fire the thing.

You have no choice but to refer to the War Machine section for determining how to fire a Scrap Launcher, or a Hell Cannon.

Scraplaunchers/Ironblasters/Hellcannons/Cygors/Thundertusks/etc are just regular shooters.

I'm afraid I'd have to disagree on that one, at least for the HC and the Scraplauncher. Looking in the regular shooting section of the BRB will not tell you how to fire either of those weapons.

Pivots are available to Stone Throwers, and each of these fire exactly as if you were firing a stone thrower.

**Edit**

I was checking the FAQ just to be sure, and I found this little gem.

Q: Does pivoting on the spot count as movement for the purposes of units, other than war machines, with the Move or Fire rule?(p73)
A: Yes.

That could very well prove you are correct Duke. That means the HC cannot pivot during the movement phase and fire in the same round.

**DukeRustfield**

"Fires like" has nothing to do with movement.

"Pivots are available to Stone Throwers."

No, they are available to War Machines. There is no entry under Stone Throwers that says they can pivot before they fire. Even if they could, it's irrelevant because none of those monsters are Stone Throwers.

If it said it moves like a Stone Thrower, that would be key. Because a pivot is movement. It is not firing.

**Sigmundr**

Don't know why this is an issue, really. a scraplauncher is a chariot, and therefore follows the rules for chariots in regards to moving. same thing with the thundertusk. It has a stone-thrower weapon, but is not itself a stone thrower. both models can pivot freely in the movement phase, and doing so does not affect it's ability to fire.

'sides. there is no way you'd get that rhinox to pivot on the spot.

**RiTides**

Lehnsherr wrote:**Edit**

I was checking the FAQ just to be sure, and I found this little gem.

Q: Does pivoting on the spot count as movement for the purposes of units, other than war machines, with the Move or Fire rule?(p73)
A: Yes.

That could very well prove you are correct Duke. That means the HC cannot pivot during the movement phase and fire in the same round.

Alas, I think you and the Duke are correct... I definitely knew that the HC could not pivot in the Movement phase and fire in the same round. I was hoping it'd be allowed to pivot to face its' target in the shooting face like a warmachine... which Duke correctly (imo) points out that it is not.

As to the ironblaster, it would be a bit of an odd mechanic for it to move in the movement phase, and then pivot again in the shooting phase... so not having that second pivot makes using it a little less clunky.

**Grey Templar**

Scraplaunchers and Ironblasters aren't warmachines and as such may NOT pivot in the shooting phase.

They are Chariots that have ranged weapons that are Warmachine weapons. They however have none of the rules associated with Warmachines aside from those pertaining to how their shooting phase is resolved. They follow the general rules for Chariots(and as such may Stand and Shoot, but may not pivot when shooting)

**Warboss Fugnutz**

p. 49 OK AB
"The scraplauncher catapult is a Stone Thrower..."

So, I see the ambiguity, because to get the rules for firing a stone thrower you go to the "War Machines" chapter of the BRB and follow those rules for firing them. And in the BRB, there is "before you fire the war machine, pivot it..."

The old rules (which don't matter, at all, in any way, at all, and I'm only referencing because it seems like people are internally referencing them themselves) make it obvious that it does not get the pivo (before the fire)t. The new (actual, real, ones that matter) rules make no such clear distinction.

OKAY - now, BOTH sides - you're both right.

Both right in the fashion of many topics on "YMDC", which is THERE IS NO RIGHT ANSWER, PLAY THE WAY YOU HAVE BEEN, WAIT FOR THE FAQ AND ASK YOUR T.O. BEFORE A TOURNAMENT.

Blanket statements "They are chariots, blah blah so they DO NOT follow ANY war machine rules" are silly.

Blanket statements "They have war machines, so the AUTOMATICALLY follow ALL war machine rules for shooting" are equally silly.

Silly, because none of us knows at this point. Don't get so heated. Just wait 18 months for the faq to come out and clear all this up.