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Hey all,

I was a long time admirer, until a shop opened very close to me in my area, and I jumped into the world of Table Top. I grabbed up 40k and Fantasy both, but after a stint of trying to learn 40k and having d-bag players who were more interesting in whooping me than teaching-- despite it being a learning match-- I shelved my 40k and devoted myself to Fantasy.

I quit, though. Sold off my stuff to try and break even after the fun really went out of it. What I want to ask the... tabletop community... you people who've played more, and longer than I've even considered... is some... basic questions. See, selling the last of my guys, seeing the minis I had detailed with greenstuff and extra bitz, really made me miss it. What I'd like to find out from the community, I guess, is if I had an exceptionally bad experience with Warhammer, or if what I experienced is pretty much common place.

Not knowing much about Warhammer, and at the time having considerable expendable income, I tried several armies, before I settled on the Lizardmen, though I had a sizeable force of Chaos to play with as well. You have to understand, I was brand new, didn't really understand what was over-powered, and what was not gimping yourself. The people I was playing with, were generally unhappy with my Lizardmen. They preferred I played with my Chaos. But I ended up getting into the Lizardmen due to the variety of units compared to Chaos. Skrimishers, Calvary, Camo Skinks, Terradons, etc, etc. Where Chaos really seemed more about, "More Warriors!". I lost often as Chaos, due to being out-maneuvered frequently and often. Not so much with my lizards from Lustria. It started to feel like, no matter what I chose, or how I played-- feints, baiting, flanking, so on and so forth-- with my Lizardmen I was just being cheesy. Because I was winning. I played with, and without the Slann. I played with and without the Carno.

I don't mean for it to sound a sob story, but I'd actually get yelled at and bitched out by these other man children because I was making the game 'unfun'. No matter what list I devised up, I was ruining their time at Warhammer. I even had a Skaven player, who took Dreaded Thirteenth every single game, accuse me of trying to make people have a miserable time. That I had chosen Lizards for their cheese, despite being brand new, and just selecting an army.

Like I said, I'm still overly new to Warhammer. Is it possible to ever balance magic in the game, if I were to return? Is there a way to play my lizardmen, and not get people raging? Or did I make a mistake as a new player picking a force like Lizardmen? Is... there a way to enjoy the other heroes, like the Carnosaur, without him eating 9,000 arrows, or a cannonball to the face, or some nasty cannon-ball like Spell? It was hard for me to understand the line between ZOMGCHEESY, Common Sense, and Gimping yourself. I'd like to note, I did start in an Escalation League tournament, too. So I did play... for prizes, I guess.

I had gotten into Warhammer to enjoy Armies, and the things that came with them. I'm wondering if there's more to the game than, MAGIC, SHOOTING, CHEESE, because of the fun loving blokes I got to play with.

I hope this is clear enough, ha.

Lizards are a solid army. I don't find them cheesy, I find their salamanders pretty tough and their casters kinda hard to overcome but still managable.

Being an ogre player, skinks suck hard because of poison attacks being their forte'. However, no matter how annoying it get's I'll never consider it cheesy. Your army is just really good at something my army is not the best at defending against.

Really skinks and...life slaan was it? Are the only things I hear about being cheesy.

Lizards are top tier at the moment and this is not your fault.

You should take what units and models and want to take ignore anyone that says otherwise.

It is not your job to "nerf" your list to make your opponents happy if they happen to play a weak army or do not have a large collection of forces yet then tough gak life aint fair they can learn to deal.

Your comment about 40k gets up my nose a bit its YOUR job to learn the rules getting upset that someone wants to win a game even a training game is a bit rude after all they have just wasted 2-3 hours of there lives on something that is not fun.

Your comment about 40k gets up my nose a bit its YOUR job to learn the rules getting upset that someone wants to win a game even a training game is a bit rude after all they have just wasted 2-3 hours of there lives on something that is not fun.

Maybe I should clarify, I was actually set up with a teaching game by the store owner. Like, literally. The guy volunteered to teach me how to play 40k, and spent the time firing a tank cannon through a .25' inch window to 'teach me'. He beat me in turn 2, without explaining a thing. In a teaching game.

I appreciate what's been said about Lizardmen, and not caring, but the gaming enviroment became generally un-fun. What I was wondering, I guess, if this is sorta normal of all Fantasy gamers, in general. I know, generalizing is bad.

And I was wondering, is there any way to play with avoiding the things people really seem to hate? Alls people at this store did was throw around big magic, as the end all of be all. And basically prevented you from using the mounted heros, IE Elves on Dragons, Lizarman on Carno, or Chaos Warrior on Jugger, because they would just direct all their shooting, magic, or cannons on it instantly.

Not bitching about the rules, I guess. Just if this is the normal for Fantasy everywhere? Cut throat to win, no matter what, and throwing a fit when you don't? Or was this just a bad store I was going to?

It seems as though the people you play are babies, don't get me wrong its fine to complain every now and then about armies being cheezy but its not cool to call an opponents army cheese it just makes them feel bad. This game is not about whining they should just work on strategies of defeating you without cheating or making up rules.

On 40K I know what you mean generally people tend to want to stomp on new players, I for one never have won a game that I was teaching I like to make players feel they can compete in the first few games and then start to play better and in which they up their game and so forth. I don't mean this in a I am the man sort of way just that obviously any player that played for a while can beat a new player.

my two cents

It sure seems that the people who play at your LGS are real bitchy. I go up against army that a Uber cheese compared to mine, and I dont give a crap, I just enjoy having a game and the experience around it. As the other guys said lizzies are pretty pwnage, but its not your fault that they other people cant take it.

Sounds like the "teaching game" wasn't the best experience. Honestly if thats what happened I would have been put off too. Not all gamers are like that but I have noticed a difference in people who play only 40k to people who play other systems.
Cheese and WHFB? Hmm there are hard builds, and these builds are usually just the best available which anyone with half a brain would use. But cheese no I think. 8th edition is a nice ruleset, I know it has flaws but your LM army isn't one of them.
Which armies were your opponents using? And what was your WoC army out of curiosity, some of us might be able to help there too

Play Historicals - when you're stomping people with your Romans, no one can cry out cheese. They'll have to admit you're just the better player.

Odessa wrote:

Your comment about 40k gets up my nose a bit its YOUR job to learn the rules getting upset that someone wants to win a game even a training game is a bit rude after all they have just wasted 2-3 hours of there lives on something that is not fun.

Maybe I should clarify, I was actually set up with a teaching game by the store owner. Like, literally. The guy volunteered to teach me how to play 40k, and spent the time firing a tank cannon through a .25' inch window to 'teach me'. He beat me in turn 2, without explaining a thing. In a teaching game.

I appreciate what's been said about Lizardmen, and not caring, but the gaming enviroment became generally un-fun. What I was wondering, I guess, if this is sorta normal of all Fantasy gamers, in general. I know, generalizing is bad.

And I was wondering, is there any way to play with avoiding the things people really seem to hate? Alls people at this store did was throw around big magic, as the end all of be all. And basically prevented you from using the mounted heros, IE Elves on Dragons, Lizarman on Carno, or Chaos Warrior on Jugger, because they would just direct all their shooting, magic, or cannons on it instantly.

Not bitching about the rules, I guess. Just if this is the normal for Fantasy everywhere? Cut throat to win, no matter what, and throwing a fit when you don't? Or was this just a bad store I was going to?

OK sorry about the 40k comment then =)

And regarding big monsters etc they are just sub par in 8th edition its not a problem with your meta its the norm.

It might be a bad store in regards to player attitude or it might be a great store that just has a diffrent view on how the game should be played I myself cant stand fluffy players and want to play against WAAC list and players aslong as everyone is cool to each other, how cut throat we are with our man dollies is of little consequence.

Perhaps if you are as it seems trying to meet them half way, try a different list every game with the lizardmen. Try out just a regular on foot combat hero, ect it gives you fun new experiences and them the chance to win if it means that much to them.

This is of course a suggestion as they should really just accept that your army is what it is and they need to try different ideas to beating you.

Feel your pain, I can't stand playing against whingers...

Im interested though in hearing about what a 'standard' army of yours looked like. I know you mentioned that you changed your lists quite regularly but it would be good to see what your most regular army was composed of when playing Lizardmen.

Way back in like 6th Ed when I was playing more regularly one of my mates played Lizardmen and out of our gaming group I must admit I found him to be the toughest match-up. But he certainly didnt play cheesy or WAAC lists!
I think the Lizardmen list is just one that is extremely flexible and durable enough to be hard to play regardless of it's make up.

The root of your problem is your community. If they players incessantly whine, you might need to find a new area, if possible. If not, it's a shame, because from what you're describing, it's really nothing you're doing wrong, and if the community isn't great then the game won't be much better.

Well, lemme preface a little by saying this was almost 8 months ago. So details are a little shady, since I've parted with most of my Tabletop belongings since then.

I was fighting anything, I was really into the game. Relaxed, and tournament games against Woodies, High Elves, gunline Dark Elves, Dark Elves with Dragon, Beastmen of everysort, HPA Skaven, 2x Doomwheel Skaven, Dwarves, VC. The only thing I didn't actively play against was Tomb Kings, I think.

See, that's sorta the thing. No one was 'fluffy', but one guy, and he was always fun to play against. No one was 'relaxed' or 'toned' down lists. Like I said, the one 30-something man child who spent an night screaming at me in a public store about how my Lizardmen were cheesy was a Skaven player who believed in Dreaded 13'ing everything. Because he wanted to keep the game 'fun' for everyone.

For my lists, I ran... uh... Well. For the two tournaments I did(one escalation, one a 2500 pointer) I was running the usual Slann with Temple Guard. Camo skinks, two skinks skrimisher blocks... Steg.. A few Salamanders... and a couple of Saurus blocks, I believe. For the tournies, I remember going heavier onto my Slann. Cupped Hands and a few of his powers. I don't really remember much of the details. But even when all those powers did was to neutralize enemy magic in the end, I'd still get this kind of whiney treatment. The more you guys reply, the more it sounds like I just got a good store nearby.

For my non-tournie lists, I'd run anything for giggles. Skink priest, skink priest on a Steggy. Steggy with that... cool spear-wielding skink. I don't.. remember all the details. I did cut out things I thought were mostly garbage(cold one Calvary).

I ended up winning a Tournament against a Beastman player, one of the ones who liked beating me as Chaos, but hating losing to my Lizzy lists. Even though we had played before, my list was suddenly cheesy, even though another participant had my exact list. But his was fine. The only way I won the game was to draw his units away type of deal, and won myself $50. But it turned into a store-wide fiasco.

I guess that was my other question, where's the line, really, between... too much, and gimping yourself? Like, the second you take something not as... well suited for your army at that shop, people would pounce on it. I'd bring out the Carnosaur, and people would just annihilate it for giggles. Sorta a damned if I do, damned if I don't.

As for my Chaos lists, I don't even remember. I just remember not having enough units for my liking.

Based on the above do not gimp yourself in tournaments, Its most likely and this is speculation that you came back to gaming and were kindof like a newcomer in a way, you play well and started winning and now the old pyramid of who was a good player (probably who ever is maddest at you) is now in your shadow. It like a group thats been set in stone with a leader, but now you the new good player beats everyone they need to accept that your lists are good and you beat them fair and square and think of ways to beat you.

For goodness sakes tell them to find proof of Lizardmen being cheesey? they are a tournament army to be sure but so are the armies you listed its equal amounts of cheese I mean High Elves come on, and skaven cheese come on. Every army has good stuff and the Wood Elf player is the only deserver of whining and not about you he should whine about how is codex sucks.

I'd actually suggest that your opponents were gimping themselves.

Dark Elf Dragons are expensive and fragile, in the sense that there are good ways to take them out. Beastmen are just hard to play this edition, x2 Doomwheels isn't too scary, and Wood Elves suck now.

It appears that your opponents took sub-par lists, believing they were taking top-tier stuff, and then complained when they lost. timeofeo is right, the only player who has any right to complain is the Wood Elf player, and even then, he/she should have known that WE are bad this edition.

It sounds like you were just playing man-children who couldnt handle losing to the new guy.
I can tell you, I have only ever met one player like that, and ive been playing wargames for over a decade. My advice is to convince a friend who you already know isnt a tool, to get into the game. Its even easier if you have a starter kit (like iob) with 2 armies in it. That way you can play the game in a friendly environment over a few brewskis rather than playing tossers.

If that's not gunna happen, then I'd recommend finding a private club rather than playing at that store. In fact, do that anyway AND try to get a buddy or two into it. As far as im concerned, wargaming is about thinking tactically, and having fun. You had fun with the fluffy player, if I were you id catch up with him and ask him where else he plays.

Sorry for my lack of grammar, im still getting used to typing on a smartphone.

Wow thats harsh.

But in warhammer as a new player you dont jsut throw something together and its the best thing is the sad part you couldnt have cheesed it takes time to figure out how to cheese.

The cheesiest skaven have is the HPA and the 13th is nasty same goes for brass orb flying carpet rat

Just go in and if people are being stupid and not fun leave.
Thats what happened to me this summer warhammer became unfun because of the people i played with were no fun.

Go in and go for a fun game if people are stupid leave and go else where.

Also what they all said

Just say to them they don't complain about their own powergaming armies stomping over your WoC. ><
The only gripe I have with WHFB I've met so far are the ones who remove wells, fences etc out the way, and adjust buildings out the way a bit of their hordes so the horde can move through unopposed and without penalty. Yet they watch you like a hawk for the slightest thing. They no longer get offers of games from me...

infinite_array wrote:Play Historicals - when you're stomping people with your Romans, no one can cry out cheese. They'll have to admit you're just the better player.

This.

Neither 40k or Fantasy are balanced enough to be truly called "competitive," and people who try to play the game like that are just in for disappointment, so dont listen to them. Theyre fun games, but theyre not competitive or particularly tactical.

Sounds like you just found a crop of bad apples. I'd look into another place to play.