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It is well known that new army lists give tons of benefits over older army lists. As I see it, the newest ones give the ability to create multiple builds that all do well. Also they give transports to almost every unit, in the Blood Angel's codex even tactical squads can take a land raider without using a heavy support slot. Also, at least one guy in most squads that has tons of options.

When I look at the Ork codex I only see three squads with dedicated transports. Boyz, Nobz, and Mega Nobz. Not only that but the transports always limit the squad size in the case of the boyz. You have to use your heavy support choice to even get 2/3 the max size in a transport and the dedicated one only gives you enough for a little more than 1/3 max size.

As for the upgradeable leader in every unit in recent codices the orks get them in most but not lootas/burnas. Unless you count mek boyz. But they don't even get a bosspole... even though the model has one.

In a way I am kinda irritated by the Grey Knight and Blood Angel codices due to their insane flexibility and cool options. Especially Purifiers. But at the same time I would like to see as much flexibility in ork armies.

I would like to see some of the changes listed below. I did not go into great detail as to why, some of them have already been explained why above.

Mega Nobz
5+ Invulnerable save and raise point cost to 45/model
Option to Upgrade Twin-linked shoota to Deffgunz for 10 points, why be relentless with no heavy weapon options?

Big Mek
Option to make 1 lootas, 1 Burnas or 1 Deffdread troops (and can hold objective like grey knights walkers)

Nobz
Get battlewagon, trukk, or warbuggy as dedicated transport
Drop Painboy as an option (see painboy below)

Flash Gitz
Squad size 3 to 10
Drop Painboy as an option (see painboy below)
Badrukk makes 1 unit troops
Get battlewagon, trukk, or warbuggy as dedicated transport (no kill kannon/ard case on battlewagon)
More Dakka, Blastas, and Shootier all +2 points per model.
Currently to have 1 guy and all upgrades with cybork body is 45 points/guy... way too much for as weak as they can be.

Battlewagon
Lower base cost by 10, they really are not worth 90 points base
Lower Price of Kill Kannon by 10, or increase damage to 8, or increase range to 36, or all 3?

Looted Wagon
Increase damage of boomgun to 9 and range to 48
Options to have more armor because the vehicle that was looted had better armor?
Get Kannon, Zzzap gun or Lobba.

Ghazghkull
Change gun to Twin-linked big shoota, it just looks twin-linked

Burnas
Get trukk, or warbuggy as dedicated transport
Mek boy gets nob options like bosspole, klaw, eavy armor, ect...

Lootas
Mek boy gets nob options like bosspole, klaw, eavy armor, ect...

Tank Bustas
Tank hunter rule, why do they not have this already?!
Tank busta bombs Str 8 + 2d6
Get trukk, or warbuggy as dedicated transport

Warbuggy
Wrecking ball upgrade
'Ard Case upgrade
Option to take Transport capacity of 5 or 6 models for 15 points? Hanging on sides like scouts in land speeder storm

Stormboyz
Reduce cost to 10 points per model, they are not twice as effective as normal boyz
Zagstrukk only scatters 1d6 (it is hard enough to deepstrike a large mob as it is, and Zagstrukk's boyz are supposed to be good at it)

Slugga/Shoota Boyz
Squads of 20 may take Battlewagon as dedicated transport (can't take Kill Kannon/Ard Case)

Deffdread
Increase front and side armor to 13, or have a Heavy Deffdread upgrade to get it
Can replace both Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons with Ranged weapons
(discount of 10 points per weapon, free big shootas and rokkits for this swap, 5 point KMB for example), making pairs twin-linked
Take Deffgunz for 10 points
I think giving the orks more shooty options makes sense. They love their Dakka.

Killa Kans
Can replace Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon with a 2nd ranged weapon
(discount of 10 points per weapon, free big shootas and rokkits for this swap, 5 point KMB for example), making pairs twin-linked
Take Deffgunz for 15 points

All Orks
Feel no pain on a 6+, Page 4 of current codex, 2nd paragraph of right hand collumn."An ork feels next to no pain even from the most grievous of wounds, enabling him to fight on whilst horrifically injured and even for a short while after he is technically dead." It goes on to explain that they have a powerful regenerative system.
Also the ammount of stuff that other armies have that slaughters mobz of orks has made them almost unusable. And you have to have them, because gretchin suck even more. A 2nd 6+ save against anything that doesn't ignore armor may make them survive across the table again, or survive melee with multiple purifiers squads.

Painboy
Independent characters
Make elite choice 1-3 that can be split into other units
Increases ork feel no pain to 4+ for unit they are attached to

That sounds awesome i would love to see those changes especially looted wagons because they are expensive, easily destroyed and only any good against hordes such as gaunts and fire warriors

Liked it all...

Would love to see it developed...

Heavy deff dread? FW already have a heavy dread with AV 13, maybe we should say that it is AV 14 on the front?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also what about glory hogs on tankbustas you would not believe how many people complain that it makes bustas pretty much unusable.

zilegil wrote:Heavy deff dread? FW already have a heavy dread with AV 13, maybe we should say that it is AV 14 on the front?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also what about glory hogs on tankbustas you would not believe how many people complain that it makes bustas pretty much unusable.

They do suck pretty bad. I would like to see them at least get git-findas to see if a tank is in range and if not be allowed to fire at/assault something closer.

Also, after a game this weekend, I would like to see Zogwort be mastery level 2!

Everything else you have posted is pretty good (not sure about the battlewagon prize reduce), but one thing bugs me. The +6 FNP. Like we don't already have insane amount of models with FNP, now we gotta give it as an base rule for the Orks. I have played couple of times against an Ork Horde and they are not easy to take down (I play Eldar and I have really lot of template weapons). Based on that idea even the Space Marines should receive somekind of army wide FNP rule, since the fluff depicts them to be able to shriug off even the most horrific of injuries (and thats a rule I dont wish to see). I dont know, maybe a drop of prize for the boyz would be better (Im really nostalgic today )? Hopefully this post doesn't get a lot of anger from other Ork players

I think the only thing I wouldn't go for is the 5+ Invulnerable save on the meganobz: you risk turning them into terminator clones if you do. Also, isn't an ork's natural resiliance accounted for by their Toughness of 4? They're already tough, surely there's no need for a 6+ FNP?

Painboys as a seperate unit makes a lot of sense to me, more so than Blood Angel Sanguinary Priests (I don't believe any Astartes chapter should have that many apothecaries running about, but orks are another matter), so good call on that.

As for Burnas/Lootas, rather than giving the mek Nob options, mightn't it be more thematic to have a choice of either a mek OR a nob as a unit leader? That way, if you want the fancy guns, you can take a mek, but if you want close combat goodness you can opt for a nob instead. I can't really imagine a mek being stroppy/ plain vicious enough to merit a bosspole, but I can imagine a burna/dakka-happy nob leading a mob of Burna/Loota Boyz. Does that make sense?

Elsewise, like I said, everything else seems pretty sound.

The Epic Chaosdude!!! wrote:Everything else you have posted is pretty good (not sure about the battlewagon prize reduce), but one thing bugs me. The +6 FNP. Like we don't already have insane amount of models with FNP, now we gotta give it as an base rule for the Orks. I have played couple of times against an Ork Horde and they are not easy to take down (I play Eldar and I have really lot of template weapons). Based on that idea even the Space Marines should receive somekind of army wide FNP rule, since the fluff depicts them to be able to shriug off even the most horrific of injuries (and thats a rule I dont wish to see). I dont know, maybe a drop of prize for the boyz would be better (Im really nostalgic today )? Hopefully this post doesn't get a lot of anger from other Ork players

Eldar may be a bad example since they are an older codex also. Their problem would be that you could build to slaughter ork hordes but then not be able to compete with other things with the same list. So in a sense they have the same problem orks do.

Perhaps a better solution than making any changes at all would be to pretend the Grey Knight and Blood Angel Codices were never released.

I would give all orks the option to become 'ard boyz.

The fact you can have only one is complete bull

Flash Gitz only need: Assault 2 which can be upgraded to Assault 3 +10 points

and

+5 points: Twin-Linked

All you need to fix them is to make them more accurate than other orks.

Looted Wagons taken as Squadrons, maybe with a few more weapon options, but for 35 points for one, why not have the ability to flood the field with them.

I'd like to see them go back to the old ways of unit customization. You'd get a base unit and then upgrade that unit like a tech tree.
For example, instead of MANs, Nobs, flash gits, ect, you'd get a base nob for like 20 points and then proceed to upgrade them wolf guard style but whole squad at a time.
So like there would be a bunch of "All nobs can replace X with Y for Z points per model" and under that, another upgrade tree for wargear associated with that class.
This dosen't have to apply to all orks. Things like lootas and tankbustas can stay seperate for their own goodness.

Honestly, I think the entire ork armory is pretty well rounded and plentiful. It's just overly streamlined and a giant mess like MANs or flashy gitz.

I'd just like to see two wargear changes. Zaap gun auto-hitting and more gun options for lootas.

I would like to see Boys get an option to give up all shooting to use big choppas. That way, 12 of them in a trukk would be a useful, if suicidal unit.

Tank Bustas
Tank hunter rule, why do they not have this already?!

What makes raging orks that only shoot home made rokkits for the fun of the loud bang them more elite at taking out armour then devastators for example?

From what I understand, Glroy Hogs is a vehicle only version of Rage, but makes you shoot and assault the vehicle? Why not just keep them in a transport untill the arrive in the parking lot?

Pyriel- wrote:

Tank Bustas
Tank hunter rule, why do they not have this already?!

What makes raging orks that only shoot home made rokkits for the fun of the loud bang them more elite at taking out armour then devastators for example?

Because devastators do not ignore everything else while dedicating their entire existence to the destruction of vehicles?

They can for example, take anti infantry weapons, and also fire at infantry if they choose to.

They would not spend the time an Ork does having Mek boyz customize their weapon to the point an Ork would, in an effort to make it the best anti tank weapon possible.

Who would have the tank hunters rule if not for a group or orks who's sole purpose is to kill vehicles?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadshot wrote:From what I understand, Glroy Hogs is a vehicle only version of Rage, but makes you shoot and assault the vehicle? Why not just keep them in a transport untill the arrive in the parking lot?

Because they do not get a dedicated transport, and Battle wagons are better used for large groups of Boyz.

If they could get a trukk or looted wagon for example as a dedicated transport, that would be a good tactic.

There's only one thing needed to fix tankbustas imho.. Give them the choice between running and shooting in the shooting phase... Simple as that. It would toss me right back to my ork list in last edition where I Allways used 2 units of 'em.

Mmm... 4 rokkits/unit and the tankhunter usr, and they're a must have. Geez, just give me back their old codex entry and we'd be golden...

Might even consider forgiving gw for taking away my bs2 leman russ demolisher if rhey did that...

I don't know about battlewagons being dedicated for boyz, or reducing them by ten, they are already fine. Ork boyz should probably not get 6+ fnp, kinda op.. And for painboyz, make it like imperial gaurd tech priests and Ministorum priests, the elite slot is very competitive as is.

I do like the squadroned looted wagons though.

Frothmog wrote:

The Epic Chaosdude!!! wrote:Everything else you have posted is pretty good (not sure about the battlewagon prize reduce), but one thing bugs me. The +6 FNP. Like we don't already have insane amount of models with FNP, now we gotta give it as an base rule for the Orks. I have played couple of times against an Ork Horde and they are not easy to take down (I play Eldar and I have really lot of template weapons). Based on that idea even the Space Marines should receive somekind of army wide FNP rule, since the fluff depicts them to be able to shriug off even the most horrific of injuries (and thats a rule I dont wish to see). I dont know, maybe a drop of prize for the boyz would be better (Im really nostalgic today )? Hopefully this post doesn't get a lot of anger from other Ork players

Eldar may be a bad example since they are an older codex also. Their problem would be that you could build to slaughter ork hordes but then not be able to compete with other things with the same list. So in a sense they have the same problem orks do.

Perhaps a better solution than making any changes at all would be to pretend the Grey Knight and Blood Angel Codices were never released.

+1 to that idea .

Oh, and although the Eldar codex is outdated they still bring a lot of anger to the battlefield

Because devastators do not ignore everything else while dedicating their entire existence to the destruction of vehicles?

They can for example, take anti infantry weapons, and also fire at infantry if they choose to.

They would not spend the time an Ork does having Mek boyz customize their weapon to the point an Ork would, in an effort to make it the best anti tank weapon possible.

Who would have the tank hunters rule if not for a group or orks who's sole purpose is to kill vehicles?

Flawed points.
The SM weapon is by far more superior then the ork rokkit, how anyone can claim otherwise is beyond me.
A lascannon reaches further and does more damage, a multimelta takes down heavy armour better and the missile launcher reaches further and hits better.

As for training the SM win hands down, the ork doesnt spend 22 hours a day occupied with hardcore training. If you ever read any fluff, be it canon or BL you would understand there is a ton of difference between an orks skill and that of the SM.

Pyriel- wrote:

Because devastators do not ignore everything else while dedicating their entire existence to the destruction of vehicles?

They can for example, take anti infantry weapons, and also fire at infantry if they choose to.

They would not spend the time an Ork does having Mek boyz customize their weapon to the point an Ork would, in an effort to make it the best anti tank weapon possible.

Who would have the tank hunters rule if not for a group or orks who's sole purpose is to kill vehicles?

Flawed points.
The SM weapon is by far more superior then the ork rokkit, how anyone can claim otherwise is beyond me.
A lascannon reaches further and does more damage, a multimelta takes down heavy armour better and the missile launcher reaches further and hits better.

As for training the SM win hands down, the ork doesnt spend 22 hours a day occupied with hardcore training. If you ever read any fluff, be it canon or BL you would understand there is a ton of difference between an orks skill and that of the SM.

Then again, the Ork THINKS he's awesome at killing vehicles, so he is!

You have to forgive SM players at times like this, they can't have any codex get USRs they don't think their codex doesn't deserve first and more spectacularly. *sarcasm*

the_ferrett wrote:You have to forgive SM players at times like this, they can't have any codex get USRs they don't think their codex doesn't deserve first and more spectacularly. *sarcasm*

Considering I already have Tank Hunters on my Devastator equivalents and I just defended the notion of having Tank Hunters on Tankbustaz I have one thing to say: get off your gak-throwing bandwagon.

Pyriel- wrote:

Because devastators do not ignore everything else while dedicating their entire existence to the destruction of vehicles?

They can for example, take anti infantry weapons, and also fire at infantry if they choose to.

They would not spend the time an Ork does having Mek boyz customize their weapon to the point an Ork would, in an effort to make it the best anti tank weapon possible.

Who would have the tank hunters rule if not for a group or orks who's sole purpose is to kill vehicles?

Flawed points.
The SM weapon is by far more superior then the ork rokkit, how anyone can claim otherwise is beyond me.
A lascannon reaches further and does more damage, a multimelta takes down heavy armour better and the missile launcher reaches further and hits better.

As for training the SM win hands down, the ork doesnt spend 22 hours a day occupied with hardcore training. If you ever read any fluff, be it canon or BL you would understand there is a ton of difference between an orks skill and that of the SM.

Perhaps we are looking at this the wrong way. Maybe the reason they should have Tank Hunters rule is to point out that they are better at killing tanks than the normal Boyz with Rokkit launchers. Perhaps they have better Rokkits than the other boyz because they get all the good gubbinz!

The comparison should be that they are better than normal boyz, not better than SM Devastators. Besides Devastators already have things pointing out that they are better. BS 4, lascannons, multi-meltas. The extra BS alone is a huge advantage.

Also, I can see perfectly how an ork Rokkit launcher causes more damage than a SM Missile launcher. Just look at the model. The Rokkit is easily twice the size of a missile. Perhaps that is why it has shorter range. It is a larger explosive and thus heavier. And to doubt that orks can make really damaging weapons is foolish. Space marines don't have a Shokk Attack Gun or Snazzguns.

It is their Ballistic Skill that sucks, not their ability to make extremely powerful weapons.

One more thing, Orks don't train because they just know stuff. The Ork fluff states that Meks are genetically engineered to know how to make things. Just as the Tank Busta's should be genetically engineered to know how to un-make stuff with large explosives.

So how does 22 hours a day of training compare to thousands of years of genetic memory engineering?

Answer: BS 4 is still better than BS 2.

I like the Painboyz, warbuggy transport, and looted wagon ideas. Warbuggies just seem like a not as effective as koptaz option to me. Giving them a small transport option would make them unique and fun to use. It would be awesome if the looted wagon would have armor to match the model it is using. Obviously you would pay more depending on the chassis it's based on.

Of course I would also love for my boyz to all have 6+ invuls but I think that their resistance to damage fluff is represented in them being Toughness 4.

I think that having optional chassis choices is a good idea, especially with the AV matching the model. There are some guys out there, you know, and we know who you are, that would plonk down a Land Raider for Lols. AV 14/14/14 Looted Wagon anyone?

I wouldn't change much really. I don't feel orks need bunch of new bells and whistles.

The one thing that i think could be addressed would be the fact that slugga & choppa orks are almost universally bypassed in favor of shoota boyz.

I would add one new rule and have it tied to the Waaagh as follows:

On a turn in which the Waaagh has been called any ork armed with a choppa/ 'uge choppa who successfully assaults counts the weapon as having rending for that assault only.

this would give some limited incentive to take choppa boyz, plays up the desire to play a horde and get a good massed assault off (very orky) but give a somewhat random and circumstantial bonus so that it doesnt totally tip the power balance on it's ear...

Perhaps we are looking at this the wrong way. Maybe the reason they should have Tank Hunters rule is to point out that they are better at killing tanks than the normal Boyz with Rokkit launchers. Perhaps they have better Rokkits than the other boyz because they get all the good gubbinz!

The comparison should be that they are better than normal boyz, not better than SM Devastators. Besides Devastators already have things pointing out that they are better. BS 4, lascannons, multi-meltas. The extra BS alone is a huge advantage.

Also, I can see perfectly how an ork Rokkit launcher causes more damage than a SM Missile launcher. Just look at the model. The Rokkit is easily twice the size of a missile. Perhaps that is why it has shorter range. It is a larger explosive and thus heavier. And to doubt that orks can make really damaging weapons is foolish. Space marines don't have a Shokk Attack Gun or Snazzguns.

It is their Ballistic Skill that sucks, not their ability to make extremely powerful weapons.

One more thing, Orks don't train because they just know stuff. The Ork fluff states that Meks are genetically engineered to know how to make things. Just as the Tank Busta's should be genetically engineered to know how to un-make stuff with large explosives.

So how does 22 hours a day of training compare to thousands of years of genetic memory engineering?

Answer: BS 4 is still better than BS 2.

The reasoning is a bit off still.
Well but then again what do the dev squad have that is better then a tac squad? nothing. The same statline all over and the same lack of special rules and the very same heavy weapon with the very same ammunition. Thus why arent SM devs better at shooting heavy weapons then SM tacs?

Size of the rokkit doesnt matter the slightest, it's the tech level that counts. Using this logic I would say a WW1 dynamite satchel charge is more powerful then a modenr day C4 explosive simply because it is bigger or even better, a huge 2000kg WW2 bomb is better and more powerful then a small modern day tactical nuke...simply because it is so much bigger and cooler looking.
Nope, that doesnt fly.

Orks have basic infantry weapons except for a rare few gadgets that truly remarkable meks tinker up whereas SM have amongst the most modern and high tech wargear the Imperium has to offer.

As for orks not training because they know stuff that too is wrong, sure they dont train per see but they DO get better with time and experience, an ork just sleeping all his life will not be as skilled at bashing in skulls as the one who does so on a constant basis. Why else does a warboss have better skill then a normal boy?



Giving the tankbusta squad cool anti tank rules would be nice since they suck at it but this is to make them more fun rule wise. Giving them special elite skill rules would however not be correct fluff wise.
Btw I too play orks and I think their codex is in need of some more power since pretty much everything else newer just overtook them with codex creep.

Pyriel- wrote:

Perhaps we are looking at this the wrong way. Maybe the reason they should have Tank Hunters rule is to point out that they are better at killing tanks than the normal Boyz with Rokkit launchers. Perhaps they have better Rokkits than the other boyz because they get all the good gubbinz!

The comparison should be that they are better than normal boyz, not better than SM Devastators. Besides Devastators already have things pointing out that they are better. BS 4, lascannons, multi-meltas. The extra BS alone is a huge advantage.

Also, I can see perfectly how an ork Rokkit launcher causes more damage than a SM Missile launcher. Just look at the model. The Rokkit is easily twice the size of a missile. Perhaps that is why it has shorter range. It is a larger explosive and thus heavier. And to doubt that orks can make really damaging weapons is foolish. Space marines don't have a Shokk Attack Gun or Snazzguns.

It is their Ballistic Skill that sucks, not their ability to make extremely powerful weapons.

One more thing, Orks don't train because they just know stuff. The Ork fluff states that Meks are genetically engineered to know how to make things. Just as the Tank Busta's should be genetically engineered to know how to un-make stuff with large explosives.

So how does 22 hours a day of training compare to thousands of years of genetic memory engineering?

Answer: BS 4 is still better than BS 2.

The reasoning is a bit off still.
Well but then again what do the dev squad have that is better then a tac squad? nothing. The same statline all over and the same lack of special rules and the very same heavy weapon with the very same ammunition. Thus why arent SM devs better at shooting heavy weapons then SM tacs?

Size of the rokkit doesnt matter the slightest, it's the tech level that counts. Using this logic I would say a WW1 dynamite satchel charge is more powerful then a modenr day C4 explosive simply because it is bigger or even better, a huge 2000kg WW2 bomb is better and more powerful then a small modern day tactical nuke...simply because it is so much bigger and cooler looking.
Nope, that doesnt fly.

Orks have basic infantry weapons except for a rare few gadgets that truly remarkable meks tinker up whereas SM have amongst the most modern and high tech wargear the Imperium has to offer.

As for orks not training because they know stuff that too is wrong, sure they dont train per see but they DO get better with time and experience, an ork just sleeping all his life will not be as skilled at bashing in skulls as the one who does so on a constant basis. Why else does a warboss have better skill then a normal boy?



Giving the tankbusta squad cool anti tank rules would be nice since they suck at it but this is to make them more fun rule wise. Giving them special elite skill rules would however not be correct fluff wise.
Btw I too play orks and I think their codex is in need of some more power since pretty much everything else newer just overtook them with codex creep.

Tac squad - 1 heavy weapon
Dev squad - 4 heavy weapon and signum

Yea... they don't get nothing over a tac squad...

Doesn't having more C4 make a larger explosion than having less C4? Do Orks or Space Marines even use C4? Are you trying to hard to find a reason why Tank Busta's cannot have tank hunters? I can name dozens of reasons as to why they should.

This is such a silly discussion. You even admit that they suck at being anti tank. You are totally wrong about that making them more fun to play.

That they suck so bad is the reason A: no one uses them and B: orks are less competitive due to one of their key roles being useless. Their main ranged Anti tank unit is made of fail.

Like having +1 str would even matter. They would still miss everything, and it wouldn't even apply to the tank hammer because it is already str 10. The only difference it would make is that they might actually kill something instead of being entirely worthless. Couldn't have that. Then they may be almost half as good as a squad of devastators...

It would apply to tank hammer. It gives +91 to armour penetratiopn, not +1 to Str.

So a Tank Hammer would roll D6+10+1 for Armour pen, whuich is an auto pen on anythong not AV 12+, and almost an auto pen on AV 12.

The other great thing about it would be that they always pass the Tank Shock Morale test.

Frothmog wrote:
That they suck so bad is the reason A: no one uses them and B: orks are less competitive due to one of their key roles being useless. Their main ranged Anti tank unit is made of fail.

Yeah, Lootas are totally made of f... wait WHAT?? Pass me the weed, I want some too!