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Hey everyone,

I've been playing 40k for less than 2 years,I have a fun group of friends who plays with me, and I love the game. I started with Black Reach before getting Imperial Guard 5th Ed and now I have the new necrons. I started looking around the forums for stuff on necrons and I noticed a lot of hate on Matt Ward. I remember hearing some similar things about my Imperial Guard, and I was wondering why? The rules seem solif enough to me, the fluff is interesting...I don't see many reasons to hate the poor guy. Now I'm not defending him; I am asking out of ignorance on the subject.

Thanks!

Haters gonna hate.

For some reason, people love to rip on Ward....mostly because they don't like Draigo.........

And the same people are the ones that whine about how the Grey Knights are super over powered.

but long story short......people love to whine and complain about the dumbest gak........

Pretty much.

I'm not a fan of his writing style, or of the way he rewrites good existing fluff to fit his (sometimes not-so-good) ideas. A lot of people dislike him for that reason.

If i actually met the guy i'd not pull out a hammer and beat him to death, as some have intimated they would. I doubt i'd gush all over him fanboi-style either. Probably just nod politely and move on.

Personally, I started 40k 5 years ago and necrons were my first foray into the universe, and I loved them very much the way they were. I just really don't like the new ideas in the codex, some of them are good, others make me want to switch to fantasy.

Continuing on the idea of opinion, Draigo also killed my favourite demon primarch, and I think that's just ridiculous. Apart from that though, I suppose he's ok. But still...

guiltl3ss wrote:Hey everyone,

I've been playing 40k for less than 2 years,I have a fun group of friends who plays with me, and I love the game. I started with Black Reach before getting Imperial Guard 5th Ed and now I have the new necrons. I started looking around the forums for stuff on necrons and I noticed a lot of hate on Matt Ward. I remember hearing some similar things about my Imperial Guard, and I was wondering why? The rules seem solif enough to me, the fluff is interesting...I don't see many reasons to hate the poor guy. Now I'm not defending him; I am asking out of ignorance on the subject.

Thanks!

Primarily because he tends to write fluff in a manner that you'd expect of a middle-school kids bad internet fanfic, often contradictory to previously established fluff. All too often it reads like something written by a fanboy, not a professional games designer. Now, granted, 40k has always had an element of sillyness and "larger than life" to it, but there's a limit before stuff starts to sound silly even for 40k.

The hating ward thing blew up many times. Backed by Chan it got even bigger. I really could care less. I make jokes about the guy but I don't see a problem with his fluff or the new armies. It's like the Chuck Norris joke for 40k.

I just don't like how he needlessly and pointless changes even minor stuff. Modifying the Grey Knights into a Codex Chapter, for example, with only a 1000 marines compared to the six or so thousand they were...given that Grey Knights essentially cover the whole galaxy while most 1000 strong chapters stay in a smallish area, it makes much more sense for the Knights to be larger.

Then they decide to go and kill the Sisters in a convent and daub there armour with the blood. Because, for some reason, THIS Chaos incursion can corrupt Grey Knights when no other ever has and they need a 'talisman of purity' or some such. Even though it mentions in the intro's big black bold bit says that Grey Knights are incorruptible, and they at least used to have the best anti-daemon defences built directly into there armour (dunno if that's in the current book, or if there armour is simply shinier power and terminator armour). It's not a huge deal, because those sisters were dead anyway, but it just rubs me the wrong way.

And, of course, Draigo...the guy who managed to do, in the warp and in solo combat, what it took 100 Grey Knights to do against Angron on Armageddon. Although Angron did have a Bodyguard of Bloodthirsters. Beating a Daemon Primarch is just nuts. The guy is a poster boy for Marty Sues everywhere - ultimate power with a cruel curse that doesn't actually stop him showing up and kicking ass as he feels.

Grey Knights are my favourite army - I have six squads of Power Armour Grey Knights and three Terminators, a converted Grandmaster, customised Land Raider, Forgeworld Dreadnaughts...and they're sitting in there case because I can't stand the fluff the guy wrote. If it didn't make me gringe to think of damaging two books I'd be honestly tempted to cut out the fluff section from the new one and replace it with the old one.

Lord Rogukiel wrote:Personally, I started 40k 5 years ago and necrons were my first foray into the universe, and I loved them very much the way they were. I just really don't like the new ideas in the codex, some of them are good, others make me want to switch to fantasy.

Well that's your opinion, but back in my day when the Necron codex came out and retconned the C'tan into being behind everything, there was an internet shitstorm that would steamroller the Draigo fiasco. And back then, Matt Ward did not exist, and people did not rage at every new codex.

Because people are stupid (cue people hating on Draigo, but find it perfectly acceptable that a single Eldar Phoenix Lord defends an entire planet from a Tyranid Fleet planetfall... singlehandedly!!!.. pretty much the definition of hypocricy).

Other than than, probably special-snowflake-syndrome. Ward clearly writes the best and most popular Codexes ever written for the game. Some people feel they can prop up their petty ego by going "against the grain".

bombboy1252 wrote:people love to whine and complain about the dumbest gak........

Indeed, his fluff is the dumbest gak.

I read his fluff, and came to the conclusion that I didn't like it. When I was foolish enough to say this, I found it makes me a 'hater' and 'bandwagoner'.

Jon Garrett wrote:
Then they decide to go and kill the Sisters in a convent and daub there armour with the blood. Because, for some reason, THIS Chaos incursion can corrupt Grey Knights when no other ever has and they need a 'talisman of purity' or some such. Even though it mentions in the intro's big black bold bit says that Grey Knights are incorruptible, and they at least used to have the best anti-daemon defences built directly into there armour (dunno if that's in the current book, or if there armour is simply shinier power and terminator armour). It's not a huge deal, because those sisters were dead anyway, but it just rubs me the wrong way.

Adding to the fact that basic GK's are supposed to be the purest of the pure. But Purifiers are purer than them and Crowe is purer still...

Zweischneid wrote:Because people are stupid (cue people hating on Draigo, but find it perfectly acceptable that a single Eldar Phoenix Lord defends an entire planet from a Tyranid Fleet planetfall... singlehandedly!!!.. pretty much the definition of hypocricy).

It is not WHAT is written. It is the WAY it is written. The Draigo thing could have been played out like the tragedy it is supposed to be (your Grand Master is literally lost in Hell, fighting for survival and thrown a bone occasionally to comeback into realspace but not for long...) but Ward wrote it like some fanboi spouting off poor rhetoric of "and then he did this, and this, and this..." It reads like something I wrote in primary school English.

Grimtuff wrote:
It is not WHAT is written. It is the WAY it is written. The Draigo thing could have been played out like the tragedy it is supposed to be (your Grand Master is literally lost in Hell, fighting for survival and thrown a bone occasionally to comeback into realspace but not for long...) but Ward wrote it like some fanboi spouting off poor rhetoric of "and then he did this, and this, and this..." It reads like something I wrote in primary school English.

Maybe. I am not saying Ward is Hemmingway born-again. But at least he actually does write about his characters doing this and that. Still a gazillion times better than the poor, expositionary drivel produced by Kelly where "Vect is the most intelligent guy around" and "Vect is troubled by his past" and "Dark Eldar are cruel and capricious", etc.., etc, ad infinitum.

I'll take activity, even if written grammatically simple, over the expositionary, entirely substance-devoid, 100% passive decriptives of twits like Kelly any day. Thanks alot.

That, I think is the difference grating most people. Kelly and Cruddace write about implausible stuff as passive descriptives, "fait accompli", without substance, detail or context. Ward writes about implausible stuff in a visual, activity-grounded perspective. It's not that Ward's style is at fault. It's that his style exposes the base narratives of 40K as they've always been, but were often surpressed by aging fans as they've tried to justify their "childish" hobby before themselves with warping the narratives to match their more "mature" expectations.

I just still don't understand why a multi-million dollar company like GW lets it's codices be written by one guy where other, much smaller companies would put an entire design team on there, followed by a good round of R&D.

Matt Ward is, in my opinion, a competent rules designer. But rules writing and fluff writing have nothing in common with each other apart from being comprised of the same alphabet.

If they'd just have a pool of designers to tackle the rules, mr. Ward among them, and have another team, for example Abnett and peers, handle the fluff things would be a lot better.

I don't quite dislike Ward. Working with writing, I know you're going to get varying levels of quality in companies and whatnot.

However, I think Ward is a sign of a larger issue, one you can see the effect of leafing through Brian Herbert's latter Dune books, Twilight schlockfests and so on: fanfiction replacing actual writing.

Nothing against fanfiction per se, but its standards (shameles fanboyism, slurping crowd favorites, unrepentant worfing and so on) are becoming the rule. Screw having a decent concept or narrative. All that matters is having your favorite guys winning and looking good while at it.

Now, codices aren't meant to be high literature, but I don't particularly see why they should pander to the most annoying common denominator either.

I hope that helps.

TiB wrote:I just still don't understand why a multi-million dollar company like GW lets it's codices be written by one guy where other, much smaller companies would put an entire design team on there, followed by a good round of R&D.

Matt Ward is, in my opinion, a competent rules designer. But rules writing and fluff writing have nothing in common with each other apart from being comprised of the same alphabet.

If they'd just have a pool of designers to tackle the rules, mr. Ward among them, and have another team, for example Abnett and peers, handle the fluff things would be a lot better.

I believe the whole team does write the books, which is a dead horse trotted out by the Ward apologists all the time. However, even if this is the case, it is his name on the book, his responsibility to do it justice as it is quite self evident that is who the fanbase's wrath and/or praise will be focussed on.

Sephyr wrote:
However, I think Ward is a sign of a larger issue, one you can see the effect of leafing through Brian Herbert's latter Dune books, Twilight schlockfests and so on: fanfiction replacing actual writing.

Nothing against fanfiction per se, but its standards (shameles fanboyism, slurping crowd favorites, unrepentant worfing and so on) are becoming the rule. Screw having a decent concept or narrative. All that matters is having your favorite guys winning and looking good while at it.

So true.

However, at least for me is all about retcons.

You like some fluff and all of a sudden it is retconned to oblivion, and you have fanfiction instead. Adding new things (let´s say Draigo) is not bad for me, no matter how badly it is written. I am fine with Codex: Space Marines, Codex: BA and even Codex: GK. But I really started disliking Ward with Codex: Necrons. Which is his best written codex till date, but scratched off a lot of stuff I liked. I do not want Ward to do anything regarding any army I like, since he changes things.

However, opinions are just that.
Also, a lot of people seem to hate everything GW does.

da001 wrote:

Sephyr wrote:
However, I think Ward is a sign of a larger issue, one you can see the effect of leafing through Brian Herbert's latter Dune books, Twilight schlockfests and so on: fanfiction replacing actual writing.

Nothing against fanfiction per se, but its standards (shameles fanboyism, slurping crowd favorites, unrepentant worfing and so on) are becoming the rule. Screw having a decent concept or narrative. All that matters is having your favorite guys winning and looking good while at it.

You like some fluff and all of a sudden it is retconned to oblivion, and you have fanfiction instead. Adding new things (let´s say Draigo) is not bad for me, no matter how badly it is written. I am fine with Codex: Space Marines, Codex: BA and even Codex: GK. But I really started disliking Ward with Codex: Necrons. Which is his best written codex till date, but scratched off a lot of stuff I liked. I do not want Ward to do anything regarding any army I like, since he changes things.

Indeed. I'm dreading who is going to write the Tau codex, if it's him all of the mystery will be sucked out of certain elements of the army, namely Farsight. He'll just make him "LOLZ HE'S A KHORNATE TAU DOOD RIGHT COZ HE'S RED AND LIKES HTH". No mystery as to his agenda like there currently is (which is what made Necrons appealing to me. Some things should not have the curtain pulled back on them, which is also why I dislike the HH books, but that's another issue) Ward spells it out for you, no mystery, no subtlety.

I just join the Mat Ward hate-threads for the complimentary drinks. I don't actually hate him-his rules are generally decent, with a couple things that make me swear at the stupidity of them. Warp quake being the #1 proponent of my ire. If you feel you can defend Warp Quake on basic troops that completely nullifies the daemon army, then get ready to be the first person on my 'ignore' list. Other than things like this though, his rules are generally pretty good, and around similar power levels.

Now on to his fluff. What the hell was he smoking when he wrote the Draigo fluff? It's been rehashed plenty of times, so I'm not going to list all his accomplishments, but it's like Ward got hit by Trey Parker's "Orgasmirator" and the result ended up being Draigo's fluff.

With the Necron codex though, I think he did well. Fluff wasn't bad, and the army looks VERY well balanced. This has to be the best thing Ward has ever done-I'm impressed with the 'Crons.

Grimtuff wrote:Indeed. I'm dreading who is going to write the Tau codex, if it's him all of the mystery will be sucked out of certain elements of the army, namely Farsight. He'll just make him "LOLZ HE'S A KHORNATE TAU DOOD RIGHT COZ HE'S RED AND LIKES HTH". No mystery as to his agenda like there currently is (which is what made Necrons appealing to me. Some things should not have the curtain pulled back on them, which is also why I dislike the HH books, but that's another issue) Ward spells it out for you, no mystery, no subtlety.

/shrug

Anything is better than a Tau-Codex by Kelly which would probaly treat us with Tau-Cavalry riding giant Cyber-fish with lasers and a-sexual, genetically engineered and indoctrinated soldiers stealing the local Orca in mid-battle to go womanizing in the next town, as well as the inevitable Ethereal brooding endlessly on a gloomy, skull-coverd seat as he fondles skulls with their long, Mr. Burns-style fingers and awaits the end of the universe because he never really got over his childhood where the other mean Tau-bullies called him names and failed to adequatly worship his superiour intelligence.

His fluff is bad, and this is generally acknowledged. It's funny how his few remaining defenders on this point say how it's only Draigo that everyone else points to. Actually, nearly all of his fluff is badly influenced by a fanboyish adoration (disclaimer: haven't read necron fluff yet). Draigo is just the epitome of his generally ill-conceived fluff

Defenders of his rules-writing have become more vocal recently, with many claiming that he is good at achieving internal balance. This completely baffles me, both from the armchair and in experience from the tabletop. How often do you seen Space Marine special characters not named Vulkan? Tactical marines outnumbering assault marines in a Blood Angels army? Why does he allow 5 man assault squads to get 35 point discounts on vehicles when they only cost 10 points more than 5 tac marines? Maths fail, that's why. It's as egregious an imbalance as Grey Hunters over Blood Claws. Shall I get into the cost of Psybolt ammo on Grey Knight dreadnaughts? Librarian dreadnaughts that sprout psychic wings?

What I do appreciate about Ward is his attempt to create some flavorful wargear and units. The problem is that some of these end up potentially broken or completely not fun to come up against. E.g. blood-taloned Furiosos, psychotroke grenades, cleansing flame, warp quake. All of these are as bad as Jaws in terms of being broken in certain match-ups. And non-Space Marine players can't help but notice the tendency of these things to screw them in the arse rather more than Space Marine players.

Zweischneid wrote:

Grimtuff wrote:Indeed. I'm dreading who is going to write the Tau codex, if it's him all of the mystery will be sucked out of certain elements of the army, namely Farsight. He'll just make him "LOLZ HE'S A KHORNATE TAU DOOD RIGHT COZ HE'S RED AND LIKES HTH". No mystery as to his agenda like there currently is (which is what made Necrons appealing to me. Some things should not have the curtain pulled back on them, which is also why I dislike the HH books, but that's another issue) Ward spells it out for you, no mystery, no subtlety.

/shrug

Anything is better than a Tau-Codex by Kelly which would probaly treat us with Tau-Cavalry riding giant Cyber-fish with lasers and a-sexual, genetically engineered and indoctrinated soldiers stealing the local Orca in mid-battle to go womanizing in the next town, as well as the inevitable Ethereal brooding endlessly on a gloomy, skull-coverd seat as he fondles skulls with their long, Mr. Burns-style fingers and awaits the end of the universe because he never really got over his childhood where the other mean Tau-bullies called him names and failed to adequatly worship his superiour intelligence.

You done bro?

A lot of this is about opinion, but as TutorialBoss so aptly put it, opinions on fluff aside, he also ends up writing a potentially OP rule every time anything is written.

TutorialBoss wrote:It's as egregious an imbalance as Grey Hunters over Blood Claws.

See, I chalk this one up to Kelly using the standard GW tactic of "make a unit that was crap in the last codex good and vice versa". SW players spammed full strength squads of BC as they were (excuse the pun) the Mutt's nuts. A 15 man squad with 3 Power Fists? Yes Please! GH's were overpriced Tacticals with no access to heavy weapons.

Then they swung it too far in the other direction (a rare hiccup from Phil, or simply because the higher ups told him to. Who knows?) and GH were good and BC were just rubbish compared to them.

It's not as consistently bad as some of the stuff in Ward's books but it is a standout example as you said.

A rare hickup?

In 4th Edition, invincible Eldar Falcons nearly broke the game. The Ork-Codex turn wound-allocation abuse into a viable strategy and Ghaz is still the most loopsided Character out there, either ignorable or an utter game-killer with no inbetween. Grey Hunters are about the best thing there is in Space Wolves. He actually one-upped wound-allocation abuse with his brilliantly invented He-Man-style Wolf-cavalry, made character-sniping fashinable again with JoTWW, once again displaying utter ignorance of all shooting and wound allocation rules in 40K. Not to mention randomly creepy fluff like Space Wolves attacking SoBs out of the blue for the shitsof it and Mowgli-Marines bonding with Wolves. Oh.. Long Fangs and the utter stupidity of Counter Attack which ultimately turned Space Wolves into the Paragon-Gun-Line chapter. Dark Eldar tops the crap-cake with stupidity like the Decapitator-wielding-Decaptitator, a Mandrake-reinvisioning that seems largly to exist to curry favours with World of Warcraft fans of Daemonhunters and, like Space Wolves, another utter rectal-abuse of an armies style, turning the formerlly lauded finesse-army into the most brainless MSU-spam currently in the 40K catalogue.

I don't think anyone could muck up as much as Kelly if they actually tried.

Zweischneid wrote:
I don't think anyone could muck up as much as Kelly if they actually tried.

You mean Mat Ward has not been trying yet. Oh dear...

Grimtuff wrote:

Zweischneid wrote:
I don't think anyone could muck up as much as Kelly if they actually tried.

You mean Mat Ward has not been trying yet. Oh dear...

I don't know what he tried to do or not tried to do. I know the results are stellar, in both fluff and his exceedingly diverse and colourfull rules, if held alongside those of Kelly or Cruddace. Not to mention a vast improvement on the sometimes far to up-tight nerd-obation of Daemonhunters and Necrons of decades past. In short. The best thing that ever happend to 40K!

Vaktathi wrote:

guiltl3ss wrote:Hey everyone,

I've been playing 40k for less than 2 years,I have a fun group of friends who plays with me, and I love the game. I started with Black Reach before getting Imperial Guard 5th Ed and now I have the new necrons. I started looking around the forums for stuff on necrons and I noticed a lot of hate on Matt Ward. I remember hearing some similar things about my Imperial Guard, and I was wondering why? The rules seem solif enough to me, the fluff is interesting...I don't see many reasons to hate the poor guy. Now I'm not defending him; I am asking out of ignorance on the subject.

Thanks!

Primarily because he tends to write fluff in a manner that you'd expect of a middle-school kids bad internet fanfic, often contradictory to previously established fluff. All too often it reads like something written by a fanboy, not a professional games designer. Now, granted, 40k has always had an element of sillyness and "larger than life" to it, but there's a limit before stuff starts to sound silly even for 40k.

Again we go with the assumption that he is actually the one writing all the fluff in the book. The same issues are present in three other books: Imperial Guard, Space Wolves, and Tyranids. Ward did not helm those projects.

Kanluwen wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

guiltl3ss wrote:Hey everyone,

I've been playing 40k for less than 2 years,I have a fun group of friends who plays with me, and I love the game. I started with Black Reach before getting Imperial Guard 5th Ed and now I have the new necrons. I started looking around the forums for stuff on necrons and I noticed a lot of hate on Matt Ward. I remember hearing some similar things about my Imperial Guard, and I was wondering why? The rules seem solif enough to me, the fluff is interesting...I don't see many reasons to hate the poor guy. Now I'm not defending him; I am asking out of ignorance on the subject.

Thanks!

Primarily because he tends to write fluff in a manner that you'd expect of a middle-school kids bad internet fanfic, often contradictory to previously established fluff. All too often it reads like something written by a fanboy, not a professional games designer. Now, granted, 40k has always had an element of sillyness and "larger than life" to it, but there's a limit before stuff starts to sound silly even for 40k.

Again we go with the assumption that he is actually the one writing all the fluff in the book. The same issues are present in three other books: Imperial Guard, Space Wolves, and Tyranids. Ward did not helm those projects.

If he puts his name on the cover of the book and does the interviews for the models, he accepts responsibility for that which is contained within.

Zweischneid wrote:A rare hickup?

I don't think anyone could muck up as much as Kelly if they actually tried.

Are you deliberately trolling? Because everything you just said about Kelly has been mirrored once, if not multiple times, in Ward's books. Wolves vs SoBs -> Grey Knights Vs SoBs. Thunderwolf Cavalry -> Flying Dreadnaughts, Deep-striking Land Raiders, and baby-carrier vehicles which count as monstrous creatures. Space Wolf Razorback + Long Fang gunline -> Blood Angels (fast) Razorback + Predator gunline. Nobz -> Paladins. Ghaz -> Mephiston/Draigo.

Also, wound allocation shenanigans are inherent to the 5th edition ruleset. Orks were simply the first codex to contain elite multi-wound units. Others were bound to follow, and have.

Zweischneid wrote:
I know the results are stellar, in both fluff and (...)

Nevermind, you are trolling.

TutorialBoss wrote:Are you deliberately trolling? Because everything you just said about Kelly has been mirrored once, if not multiple times, in Ward's books.

Am I? Works the inverse too. Everything ever criticised about the work by Ward is found in abundance and far greater severity in the books of the other writers, notably Kelly, and with far greater frequency.

If pointing out flaws in their books without mentioning possible mirror errors found in Ward's work is trolling, than so is critique of Ward without referencing the corresponding screw-ups of the like of Kelly and Cruddace; e.g. pretty much every "anti-Ward-thread" on this board ever.

Durza wrote:
If he puts his name on the cover of the book and does the interviews for the models, he accepts responsibility for that which is contained within.

You can't have it both ways. It can't be a "rare hiccup" if Kelly utterly feths things up, but some kind of overarching element of ridiculous powercreep when Ward does it. It also can't be "just a mistake" when Cruddace does far worse things to the fluff (Valkyrie "Vendetta", several ridiculous "new" Leman Russ variants, bringing back the fething "hotshot" Lasguns) but then when Ward does it "OMFG HE'S RUINING 40k!".

Hypocrisy, thy name is hater.

TutorialBoss wrote:Are you deliberately trolling? Because everything you just said about Kelly has been mirrored once, if not multiple times, in Ward's books. Grey Knights Vs Sisters.

Happened before the Grey Knights book, courtesy of the Siege of Vraks. Ordo Malleus executed Sisters who had been exposed to prolonged Chaos influence.
Partially as a big "F You" to the Ordo Hereticus which had constantly been sabotaging the Ordo Malleus' efforts, partially because it's the right thing to do as even Sisters can fall if subjected to enough.

Flying Dreadnaughts

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the "flying Dreadnoughts" Librarians utilizing a power?

and Deep-striking Land Raiders.

Thunderhawk Transporter. Since we don't actually get told how exactly the Land Raiders are being deep-striked, I'd say it's fairly up in the air (no pun intended) as to whether or not it's ridiculous. The Raven Guard deep strike armoured vehicles utilizing Thunderhawk Transporters.

Razor/Predator spam.

Eh. This has always been doable, since McNeill wrote the SM traits Codex.