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so i have about 10-15 of these guys, and i rarely use them, people say i should but i feel shades do more. give me your thoughts

Dark Riders fill a very similar role to shades (and harpies, for that matter), that of the small harrassment unit. A unit of 5 with RXBs can zip around plinking shots at suff, hunt warmachines, and redirect charges. In short, they are a cross between Shades (with much of the same striking/firepower) and Harpies (with much of their mobility). True, you pay a premium for that flexibility, but 5 Dark Riders costs less than 5 Shades AND 5 Harpies, and can fill ALL the same rolls.

They are also good when positioned to make a follow-up charge on a unit you expect to flee a more dangerous unit. If he flees, you declare another charge on them with the Dark Riders, and they MUST flee again. If he's too close to the board edge, this can send him right off the board for cheap VP! If not, well, at least he's now 7 extra inches (on the average) farther out of position.

I don't real think there's much of a place for them at the moment- harpies do light harassing better for less, and shades are better at providing a shooting platform and are better in combat.

In my 3k lists, I use 5 units of 5 with RXBs, and absolutely swear by them.

First of all, they are cheap, effective Core. I am not bogged down with predictable infantry blocks. Plus, it works in regards to an MSU style of play. If someone obliterates 5 Dark Riders, so what? It means that my hammer units are not being hit.

Two, they're shooty and mobile. I know I can always be shooting at what I want to, and usually from a position of relative safety.

Three, fast cavalry. 12" Vanguard plus an 18" first move means that in a heartbeat, I can be behind my opponent's lines to threaten war machines, archer blocks, lone characters or simply disrupting charge lanes. The free reform helps with that as well.

Four, psychology. Not the rules and game psychology, but actual, human psychology of my opponent. The fact that they have 4 or 5 units alongside/behind/in the face of their army straight out of the gate means that they MUST react to it. And in my experience, most people panic and try to get rid of them, which is exactly what I want them to do.

In the current edition they are somewhat an sub par unit, but still good enough if you feel like wielding them.

edit: perhaps sub-optimal more than subpar....

Can they move and fire even though RXB's are move OR fire?

Move or Fire still takes precedence. But they arn't move or fire.

Aerethan wrote:Can they move and fire even though RXB's are move OR fire?

RXBs are not "move or fire"

They are multi-shotx2, armor piercing, but they are nto bound by move-or-fire.

I thought so. That alone makes me feel ok about leaving them at home.

The main problem with moving and shooting is the -2 to hit you are suffering as a baseline(unless you only shoot one shot)

Grey Templar wrote:The main problem with moving and shooting is the -2 to hit you are suffering as a baseline(unless you only shoot one shot)

No worse than long-range shooting with 2-shots. Since the RXB has only 24" range, you're most likely going to be at that penalty more often than not, unless your crossbowmen are about to be charged.

True that.

Still, I think that the job is done better by Harpies and Shades.

Turns out they aren't move or fire. Good news for my wife, bad news for me!

Grey Templar wrote:True that.

Still, I think that the job is done better by Harpies and Shades.

To me, they all have various uses.

With Riders, you got the advantages of manuverability and speed. I'm giving them an edge over Harpies given how they new skirmish formation rules work, and the fact that fast cav can reform in many ways to adjust their footprint. Plus a move of 18", with a 12" vanguard mean they are going to get to the line just as fast as harpies. They also have slight versatility in that, if push comes to shove, they can whip out the standard-equipment spears and charge. Obviously not against anything that can hit them back hard, but a flank/rear against anything S3/T3 is going to do a decent job at bogging them down. Bretonnian Knights are a nice example of this. The riders might not smash em, but KOTR aren't going anywhere most likely.

Shades have the big advantage of being able to deliver Assassins. I -love- running Shade units with a Manbane/Rending Star Assassin and just letting them fire away. Also, the BS5 isn't too shabby either. In the new rules, you have to do a lot of work to keep them safe, though, either through forests or numbers since once they are targetted, they are most likely going away in a hurry. I do miss the 7th edition days where my great-weapon shades with Assassin vaporized a block of Bloodletters on Turn 1. Ahh memories...

Harpies I just am not a fan of. They can fly, yes, and have a nice supply of attacks. But...eh...they just are too fragile and do not offer the agility that a fast cav unit can give you. Yeah they can bounce over and maul war machines or get in the way, but I can do the same with Riders or Shades and have shooting to boot. That said, I have never found places to use them really to their fullest, so it may be just inexperience with the unit talking.

Just because shades and dark riders do the same type of thing, doesn't mean you shouldn't take them both.

I run 2x5 shades with rending star assassins, and a unit of 14 dark riders. I also run 2 units of 5 harpies which are awesome for throw away screens and suicide units.

Too many shades and you don't have enough good options for scouting. Dark riders can slip into the back field and units turn to deal with them. Harpies provide a much needed screen to keep the more expensive units alive, and as an added plus, they don't panic anything.

They synergy of the three working together works really well. And before people poo-poo the assassins, 6 S5 poisoned shots, always hitting on 2's, does pay off over several turns of shooting.

-Matt

I use a combination of 2 small units of dark riders, and 2 units of shades, and just use them to annoy my opponent more than anything. I find people over react to them, particularly when you get an opportunity to "shoot the gap" between formations and get into the back lines with dark riders. Haven't had any real experience with harpies, but I feel that they would be good if I gave them a chance.

The value lies in their expenibility

I take 2 units of 5 with only a champ and musician. I use them in combined charges with dragon lord to keep him from getting challenged out of combats.

Along with all the other previously mentioned uses... they're grrrrrreat!