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Please rip this apart. I've been buying too many orks that I probably won't use often and I want to fine tune a list to focus on. I'm moving away from kan wall and towards battlewagon rush/speed freaks because I don't like moving a hundred models across the board on foot with the kan wall.

HQ:
Ghazghkull - 225
Big Mek, KFF - 85

Elites:
Lootas x 5 - 75
Lootas x 5 - 75

Fast Attack:
Warbuggies x 3, TL Rokkits - 105
Deffkopta, TL Rokkit, Buzzsaw - 70
Deffkopta, TL Rokkit, Buzzsaw - 70

Heavy Support:
Battlewagon, Deff Rolla, Red Paint Job, Armour Plates, Big Shoota x 2 - 135
Battlewagon, Deff Rolla, Red Paint Job, Armour Plates, Big Shoota x 2 - 135
Battlewagon, Deff Rolla, Red Paint Job, Armour Plates, Big Shoota x 2 - 135

Troops:
20 Boyz, Shootas, Big Shoota, Nob, PK, BP - 135
20 Boyz, Nob, PK, BP - 130
20 Boyz, Nob, PK, BP - 130

9 Nobs (as Troops), Rolla wagon (same as above), Painboy, Cyborks, Big Choppa x 2, Power Klaw x 2, Boss Pole x 2, Waaagh Banner, Shoota/Skorcha, TL Shoota - 494
(Nob Load Out):
(1)Painboy
(2)Power Klaw, Waaagh Banner
(3)Power Klaw
(4)Big Choppa, Bosspole
(5)Big Choppa
(6)Choppa, Bosspole
(7)Choppa, Shoota/Skorcha
(8)Choppa, TL Shoota
(9)Choppa, Slugga

Total: 1999


My Thoughts:
1)Fast attack units: I'm not sure if I'm a believer in them yet, but 3 buggies and 2 koptas is only 245 points so it isn't much waste. I've also considered 2 squadrons of buggies and 1 kopta, but I would need to get 3 more buggies and trim 40 points somewhere.
2)I'm of the opinion that Lootas need to go huge or go small. In between can be a crap shoot with too many points running away. 5 can easily run but they aren't much of a loss when they do. 15 can hold their ground easier but it is a lot of points to invest.
3)I have a TON of points thrown into the nob wagon because that is where Ghazzy and the Big Mek will ride. That is 804 points right there.
4)Only 4 troops in my list at 2000 points. I'm used to 5-6 at 2000pts with Orks.

Looks very solid. I would only nitpick and go with your idea of swapping a kopta for a buggy squad, but who doesnt enjoy that buzzsaw action?

I personally am not fond of the nobs big mek and ghazzy all riding in the same wagon... How do we spell target?
N O B W A G O N?

That wagon just screams SHOOTME! Even if you simply put the big mek in another wagon, that nobz wagon is gonna be a prime target :(

I might try dropping 2 shoota boys freeing 12 points, take a grot orderly and give a choppa nob heavy armour(always give him the first wound to maximize the save he gets) and stick ghazzy in the shoota boy wagon.

if that wagon goes down you got shoota boys that don't mind footsloggin so much

Edit: I believe the expression "Ninjas!" would be appropriate here?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you don't mind my asking, what'd you run in your kan wall list? I've got some ideas in mind but wanted some more opinions?

I'm not a huge of fan Ghaz in this list. I think you would benefit from more Lootas and/or more Rokkit Buggies.

Also, the point costs you have listed for your Troops are not correct. 19 Boyz + 1 PK BP Nob costs 160 points.

If you drop Ghaz for a regular WB and then trim your Nobs unit, or even just take 3 Manz, you could end up having 5 Battlewagons. Just sayin'.

Thanks for the input everyone. Reckoner is right about the boyz points. I think I forgot to price in the klaws. I'm way over and need to rework it a bit.

Modified Original List to rework points and to take some of the suggestions:

HQ:
Ghazghkull - 225
Big Mek, KFF - 85

Elites:
Lootas x 5 - 75
Lootas x 5 - 75

Fast Attack:
Warbuggies x 3, TL Rokkits - 105
Deffkopta, TL Rokkit, Buzzsaw - 70

Heavy Support:
Battlewagon, Deff Rolla, Red Paint Job, Armour Plates, Big Shoota x 2 - 135
Battlewagon, Deff Rolla, Red Paint Job, Armour Plates, Big Shoota x 2 - 135
Battlewagon, Deff Rolla, Red Paint Job, Armour Plates, Big Shoota x 2 - 135

Troops:
19 Boyz, Shootas, Nob, PK, BP - 154 (I like the idea of Ghaz with the shoota boyz instead of with the nobs to split up target priority)
20 Boyz, Nob, PK, BP - 160
20 Boyz, Nob, PK, BP - 160

9 Nobs (as troops), Rolla wagon (same as above), Painboy, Orderly, Cyborks, Big Choppa x 2, Power Klaw x 2, Boss Pole, Banner, eavy armor, Ammo Runt x 2: 486
(1) Painboy, Orderly
(2) Power Klaw
(3) Power Klaw, Banner
(4) Big Choppa, Ammo Runt
(5) Big Choppa
(6) Choppa, Eavy Armor
(7) Choppa, Ammo Runt
(8) Choppa Boss Pole
(9) Choppa

Changes: Lost the second kopta to salvage points from my error. Nob unit is slightly tweaked. Ghaz can ride with the shoota boyz.


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Rejn: My kan wall is pretty standard stuff. 9 kans (usually 6 rokkits, 3 grotzookas). 2 kff meks. Tons of shoota boys with big shootas. Rokkit Buggies. Lootas.

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Question for Reckoner, what kind of list do you like Ghaz in?

I've thought about trying for 5 wagons but it is incredibly hard to find the points for 5.

In order to make a 5 wagon list and increase my buggies or lootas, I have to sacrifice a lot:
A very plain warboss instead of Ghaz.
Dropped the kopta for the second squadrons of buggies.
Wagons lost protection: Only 1 big shoota instead of 2 and no armor plates.
Nobs are significantly trimmed.
Minimalist manz mob for the 5th wagon.

HQ:
Warboss, PK: 85
Big Mek, KFF: 85

Elite:
Manz x 3 (PK, LT Shoota), Wagon (rolla, red paint, 1 big shoota): 240
Lootas x 5: 75
Lootas x 5: 75

Fast Attack:
Buggies x 3, TL Rokkits: 105
Buggies x 3, TL Rokkits: 105

Heavy Support:
Wagon, Rolla, Red Paint, 1 Big Shoota: 120
Wagon, Rolla, Red Paint, 1 Big Shoota: 120
Wagon, Rolla, Red Paint, 1 Big Shoota: 120

Troops:
20 Boyz, Shootas, Nob, PK, BP: 160
20 Boyz, Nob, PK, BP: 160
20 Boyz, Nob, PK, BP: 160
6 Nobs, Painboy, Orderly, Cyborks, PK x 2, Big Choppa x 2, Banner, BP, Wagon (Rolla, Paint, 1 Big Shoota): 390

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not sure how I feel about the second list compared to the first. Which list do you like better? Any suggested tweaks to either list?

haendas wrote:19 Boyz, Shootas, Nob, PK, BP - 154 (I like the idea of Ghaz with the shoota boyz instead of with the nobs to split up target priority)

Ghaz won't fit in that BW.
He has Mega-Armour and takes up 2 spots in a transport.


I do agree with Reckoner about Ghaz, he just really doesn't fit this list IMO. If you asked me I can only find place for him in a green tide list and even then I still find it hard justifying his point cost sometimes (point limit dependent).

haendas wrote:I'm not sure how I feel about the second list compared to the first. Which list do you like better? Any suggested tweaks to either list?

I personally like that second one better. 5 AV14 is annoying regardless of who is playing against you and the more of it the higher chance of getting one of those rollas to go crushing.

Ghaz is needed with Wagons to pull off a turn 2 assault. The difference between having him and not is tremendous.

I find that your Nob squad is way too big. Whatever they charge, they will most definitely kill and then be out in the open to be shot at.

I also find that Buggies work well if you take all 9 of them. Taking a few doesn't seem to do much.

It's really your call haendas. I don't like Ghaz very much in mechanized lists and that is just a personal preference. I feel like he is just too many points to put into a vehicle. The reason Ghaz is really good is because of his Prophet of the Waaaagh! rule, and you just don't really need that as much in a mechanized list. With that said, the first list isn't bad. You have two BWs with big threats (Nobz and Ghaz). You can try it out and see how you like it.

Finding points for 5 wagons is definitely a challenge, and I think it is important to keep the upgrades on them because if you don't, then they will go down easily and then what is the point of having 5 anyway?

I'm going to help you with the second list.

So let's look at the upgrades we want. Honestly, you probably don't need 2 Big Shootas. AP and Grot Riggers are more useful. 10 and 5 points respectively. Instead of a second big shoota, you should take a kannon. You can move and fire, you have the choice between a blast and a Str 8 Ap 3 shot for AT whenever you fire it, and you get a second weapon on your wagon. Plus, it is only 10 points! So, we are looking to pack on a total of 25 points for 5 battlewagons; 125 points we must free up, let's get trimming.

The Warboss - There is no point in giving him a PK if you aren't also giving him protection like Cybork or EA, since he will get singled out and killed in CC before he even hits. The reason we're taking him is so we get the Nobs as troops. For that reason, we can compromise and save 20 points by equipping him with a Big Choppa instead of a PK. What does this mean? It means that on the charge he can dish out 5 Strength 8 attacks at initiative 5! And you are paying only 5 points for that upgrade. So your new Warboss should cost 65 points, and we free up 20 points. He will die in CC either way, this way he will do some damage first.

The rest of the points we will free up by removing 3x Warbuggies. That frees up 105 points, for a total of 125 with the new Warboss. So we have enough to upgrade all 5 Battlewagons now. Although you are losing 3 Rokkits, bear in mind you are gaining 5 Kannons on the BWs that can be used for AT. 5 Deffrollas on the field should be more than enough to crush anything else.

I don't think you are sacrificing much with this revised list, you are really gaining more power. Lastly, a caveat regarding how you place your units in the wagons. They should go like this.

BW 1 - Big Mek with Boyz (You will need to take 1 less Boy to fit him, and I also just realized that this wagon doesn't need grot riggers because of Mek's tools, so we add 11 points to our spare points pool)
BW 2 - Boyz
BW 3 - Boyz with Warboss (also remove a boy, 17 points in spare points pool)
BW 4 - Nobz
BW 5 - Manz

This spreads out your priority targets. Now your opponent has to choose which one is the biggest threat. Most people will realize that the wagon with your Big Mek is what should be destroyed first to end the KFF. To counteract this you can screen his BW with your other 4. You would probably do this anyway so you can fit all your wagons under the KFF. Should his wagon somehow be destroyed, he can hop into the Manz or Nobz wagon.

So I said earlier you have 17 spare points. That's enough for some misc. random upgrades. I'd say you could put them on your WB, give him some protection or an attack squig. Whatever you want really.

So now that your Battlewagons are shored up and dead killy, what do ya think of the list?

Thanks very much for the input. Army lists is one of those forums where it is common for a thread to fall with only a reply or two and then off to the graveyard. I've gotten some really good insight here and I can tell it will be a big help. Thanks!

Khaos, you're absolutely right. Ghaz won't fit in the wagon I designed. Thanks for pointing that out. Your vote for list 2 is noted

Reckoner, thanks for the detailed reply. I appreciate the advice very much. A lot of what you said makes perfect sense, especially the big choppa vs. the pk on the warboss. Tomorrow when I have some time, I'm going to fire up army builder and go over your suggestions one by one to work out a revised list. Thanks very much for your help. As for your final question, I think the ideas you have for the second list are spot on and I'm already starting to see the advantages

Reckoner, thanks again for your input.

I've been going over your ideas and I think I agree with all of your suggestions except the Kannon (I might think more about using a kannon on my shoota boyz wagon though). In my mind weapons on my battlewagons serve one purpose, to avoid being immobilized from a weapon destroyed result on vehicle damage. I figure my wagons are designed with 2 goals. First is to deliver my infantry to the battle quickly and more safely than slogging. Secondly is to rolla anything possible. I just don't foresee moving wagons at combat speed enough to utilize the weapons, therefore I figure the cheapest weapons are all that I want.

I do plan to apply the rest of your ideas to my lists and figure I'll make one with ghaz and one without and go from there. Thanks for your help.

why don't you drop ghaz altogether, drop a battlewagon, then you have enough points from ghaz for a nob biker squad of 5 men, and give them lodsa upgrades, now if you drop the 19 boyz you'll have enough for yet another unit and if your feeling like you want to make this overkill don't bother losing gahz, keep him in a battlewagon with the nobs, lose the fast attack, and try fit e'm all in so your 3 units of nobs, 2 of which are on bikes are scoring

what I would now say would be something like this:

HQ

Ghaz - 225
Big mek w/ KFF -85

ELITES

Lootas - 75
Lootas - 75

Battlewagon w/ deff rolla, red paint job, armour plates, 2 big shootas - 135
Battlewagon w/ deff rolla, red paint job, armour plates, 2 big shootas - 135

TROOPS
20 Boyz, Nob, PK, BP - 160
20 Boyz, Nob, PK, BP - 160

9 Nobs (as troops), Rolla wagon (same as above), Painboy, Orderly, Cyborks, Big Choppa x 2, Power Klaw x 2, Boss Pole, Banner, eavy armor, Ammo Runt x 2: 486
(1) Painboy, Orderly
(2) Power Klaw
(3) Power Klaw, Banner
(4) Big Choppa, Ammo Runt
(5) Big Choppa
(6) Choppa, Eavy Armor
(7) Choppa, Ammo Runt
(8) Choppa Boss Pole
(9) Choppa

5 nob bikers w/ 1 big choppa, pain boy, cyborg bodies, 1 shoota/scorchas kombi-weapon - 190

5 nob bikers w/ 1 big choppa, cyborg bodies, painboy, 1 shoota/scorchas kombi-weapon - 190

and you got 84 points for upgrades on those nobs

that'd be my suggestion, or if you take a truck for a unit of boyz and theny ou only have 39 points to spend,I think.. alternativly you can drop a unit of boyz and take ANOTHER nob biker unit

- madman12367

Nob bikers could be fun. I'm confused though, in your list wouldn't only 1 of the nob biker mobs be scoring?

but I thought ghaz made 3 units, hence why I went for him

Only 1 unfortunately.

Codex Orks Pg 96. "Da Big Boss: Ghzaghkull allows one Meganobz or Nobz mob to be taken as a Troops choice."

Edit: taking another warboss could allow a second Troop of Nobz, but that would require dropping the KFF and listening to people complain about the army breaking fluff since it would have 2 warbosses (not that I care that much about that though).

well that means we can drop ghaz, there is now no need for him, this means going for 2 warbosses are the KFF is not really needed in this list per say. if you then combine the lootas and go for a 3rd nob squad meaning you have 2 nob biker squads in troops and 2 in elites, you also now has 2 warbosses on bike who also have a PC and cyborg body, dropping ghaz allows you to play with yet more points! yey!

madman12367 wrote:well that means we can drop ghaz, there is now no need for him, this means going for 2 warbosses are the KFF is not really needed in this list per say. if you then combine the lootas and go for a 3rd nob squad meaning you have 2 nob biker squads in troops and 2 in elites, you also now has 2 warbosses on bike who also have a PC and cyborg body, dropping ghaz allows you to play with yet more points! yey!

While it is an idea that could result in a fun list, that isn't the direction I'm going with mine. I'm making a battlewagon list, not a biker list. Thanks for the input though.

Reckoner, thanks again for your input.

I've been going over your ideas and I think I agree with all of your suggestions except the Kannon (I might think more about using a kannon on my shoota boyz wagon though). In my mind weapons on my battlewagons serve one purpose, to avoid being immobilized from a weapon destroyed result on vehicle damage. I figure my wagons are designed with 2 goals. First is to deliver my infantry to the battle quickly and more safely than slogging. Secondly is to rolla anything possible. I just don't foresee moving wagons at combat speed enough to utilize the weapons, therefore I figure the cheapest weapons are all that I want.

I do plan to apply the rest of your ideas to my lists and figure I'll make one with ghaz and one without and go from there. Thanks for your help.

Hey man, it's all preferential anyway. A lot of BW lists use their wagons in exactly the method you intend to. I like Kannons because they are cheap and effective. It allows you to tank shock troops 7'' (with RPJ) away and then fire at something else with your Kannon. You won't be able to ram every vehicle you wish, most smart players will keep some far away enough from your Battlewagons (fast vehicles and skimmers will especially be a thorn in your side once your Lootas are dealt with).

If you do your delivery and deffrolling, having 5 Kannons can save you the game after. At only 10 pts each they are a steal.

I'd reccomend trying it out both ways, with and without Kannons and see what you actually find best.

Been following this for awhile, and I think everyone, particularly Reckoner covered the main points.

I'd like to reinforce the fact that competitively, Ghaz is not needed in this list, and he is in fact overpriced because you will not benefit from his prophet of the waaagh like you would with a Green Tide.

One other comment: Bikers go with a battlewagon list, particularly if you're only taking one KFF. It's an extra support unit that provides rapid response, massive AP dakka, and good assault if carefully planned. I do run bikers often in my BW lists, but they are more fragile than they look on paper.

I learned a lot of what I know about Ork Tactics from Taurinus here. He is also the reason I started trying out Bikers in my BW lists.

So far my relationship with the bikers has been love/hate. I have always taken them in a max squad with a pk bp nob, costing 340 points. Reaching a cost more than 3 battlewagons, I always expect highly of this mob and it can deliver some serious hurt.

I think your chances for success improve with them if you are using a list with at least 3 Battlewagons. With unseasoned opponents they will probably ignore your bikers at first without realizing how much damage they pack in the shooting phase. Experienced opponents will concentrate fire on the Bikers, and this gives some relative safety to your wagons. Wagons can also screen your bikers.

I have definitely messed up with bikers before and it has cost me the game. They take more practice and experience to use than most units in the Ork army because you are wielding a heavy blade that slices quickly, but you can lose it if you're careless.

Anyways, if you have the models, a max biker squad could be a good alternative to your Nob wagon if you decide to mix it up.

Reckoner wrote:I have definitely messed up with bikers before and it has cost me the game. They take more practice and experience to use than most units in the Ork army because you are wielding a heavy blade that slices quickly, but you can lose it if you're careless.

Reckoner, you're a poet at heart

Thanks for the vote of confidence, much appreciated. What you say is very true, and obviously comes form experience. Warbikes to me are a finesse unit honestly.....a rapier to the normal broadsword, or choppa, that is ork units. Your strikes and placement are much more crucial and less forgiving than other units. Screening can prove to be of dire import. As said, experienced players, those that have received enough punishment from warbikes will target them early on. Try to keep them out of sight, don't assault units spamming power weapons(termies of any shade, GK, Honor Guard etc.) sometimes it's just swooping in to deliver dakka before another unit assaults, and not taking an assault with the bikes.

Warbikes to me are a finesse unit honestly.....a rapier to the normal broadsword, or choppa, that is ork units. Your strikes and placement are much more crucial and less forgiving than other units.

This is better put. A devastating precision blade, but one that will break with too much resistance!

Ork Poetry lives on.

humies bleed red,
dats a pretty hue
i collect da 'eads
once i chop em in two

I hadn't noticed the continued advice in this thread until now. Thanks very much for the input. I actually have 6 warbikers that I could try out, but unfortunately not a full unit of 12. Anyway, I mostly just wanted to post and say thanks for the help! You all have given me some good stuff to think over

I would suggest either bring 6 buggies or drop them. 3 Just doesnt get it done. I love buggies, but 3 of them just isnt that effective. Drop them and grab some more lootas which will do much better vs av 11 despite their lower str, their volume of fire more than compensates. Take 3 dice and pretend you are shooting av11, 3 buggies just isnt enough.

My personal opinion of a list be something around grazskull, big mek with sheild and flamer. Always good to shoot that out of a wagon or when they hop out if/mek hops out. i would say loose the lootas - this is a rush list, and their fire power would do little - love lootas just fail to see the super awesomeness of a 5 man squad in a 14 wall charging down the feild. Also kep the wagons cheap! extra armor, always take, 1 big shoota is good enough and deathrolla is always great for a tank shock assult combo.

Thus wagon i suggest running is what you have with 1 less biga shoota.

Take 3 heavy support wagon, and if you can take two nobs squads. Nobs are super good and you dont need to spend the 400pts to death start them, 4+ armor, pain boy, big choopaz and wa awaghh banner is always good thats alot of strength 7 at I4. so run one squad like the choopa and one claw death star, then fill the other 3 wagons with boys and you should be busting at the seems on points and out right killyness.


Of course my suggestion says no buggies, no koptas, no lootas, and more wagons, with more boys and nobz, as that will consistantly win the day for you. And always have graz in a boy squad slow and purposeful on nobz is out right stupid. Plus auto 6 waghh makes your turn 2 super effective IMO. you start 12" in, scoot 7" - 13"in depending if your emeny moved. So that way you possible skip out of powerful melta range. And then turn to you jump down 13" jump out, waghh catch army and wreck. basically 13 inch +3in disembark and 6" run and 6" assult totaling at 28inch assult radius. Even squad should catch 1 thing and thats 5 things dead for sure, transports and or troops. Plus then you can ramshackle deffrolla till your heart is content with the 5 battle wagons - typically 4 from shooting if they had to all shoot front armor.