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Made in us
Sybarite Swinging an Agonizer




Pleasant Hill CA 94523

For anyone interested here is a link to most of the top 16 lists from the Adepticon Finals on Sunday...

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2012/04/24/tournament-circuit-adepticon-championship-results-and-lists/

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Made in us
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets






Funny that Dark Angels ended up in the last round at 6th seed, and that Land Raiders are part of it. Guess a 2+/3++save isn't bettrr than AV 14...

Apparently, a white knight for the Friendly Local Game Store, RTFM, and good ole common sense
Dark Angels: Deathwing, Ravenwing, 6th and 9th companies 63-59-4
Tyranids: Swarmlord of Hive Fleet Phoenicis Prime 25-34-0
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"There's no mystical energy field that controls my destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense" Han Solo
"Exigo a me non ut optimis par sim, sed ut malis melior." Lucius Annaeus Seneca
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Made in us







Arlington, Texas

How the heck does this list even work?

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Bill-Kims-Daemons-5th-Seed-Adepticon-2012.pdf

I'd love to see some strategy tips on it. In my experience your big guys just get gunned down, if they even come in at the right time. Cool to see no Bloodcrushers.

Worship me. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




tastytaste wrote:For anyone interested here is a link to most of the top 16 lists from the Adepticon Finals on Sunday...

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2012/04/24/tournament-circuit-adepticon-championship-results-and-lists/


Thanks for posting, I wanted to see the other lists besides Chester's Grey Knights.

Honestly, I am not impressed with most of the lists I have reviewed so far. Most of them are not optimized in the most competitive way possible.

Some obervations:

I liked Tony Kopach's Space Wolves. His list is solid, but I would have dropped the Wolf Guard and added a unit of TWC instead.
I would also say that Jose Mendeze's Dark Angels were pretty optimized, however I question running 2 Land Raiders at 1850, even in an all Death Wing army.
Alexander's Necrons seem to be about the best the Necron codex has so far, so Kudos to him. However, his list would be devastated by a proper Fatecrusher or
a good Draigo Wing player IMHO. He didn't face either in this tournament as far as I could tell.

The Daemon player really dropped the ball. He had no Blood Crushers in his list, and he was running Fateweaver. I am not sure how
much he play tested, but the entire list needs to be rebuilt.

The Grey Knight players think they are onto something by running squads of 3 Warrior Acolytes in a Razorback or Chimera, with a couple
supporting units of Purifiers or a unit of Death Cult Assassins. I don't buy it, and think it is far inferior to an IG Leafblower list running Melta
Vets in Chimeras.


I am thinking some of these folks were playing more on the "fluffy" side, than bringing WAAC lists. I dunno, maybe I am just jaded from playing in a hardcore WAAC enviornment.
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

Bill Kim is a two-time Gladiator champion, and possibly the best Daemons player in the country. But the nature of our hobby is that it is really impossible to know. I do think it would be cool for you to show up at Adepticon and/or some of the other big national events. Talking disrespectfully of accomplished players the way you do does smack a bit of empty talk.

TempleCon Onslaught GT 2014: 22nd/56 Adepticon '13: Team Tourney 10th/123- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championships Qualifier: 9th/233, TotalCon Crusader NOVA Qualifier Feb '13: Best Overall, More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
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Adeptus Ridiculus






Brisbane, Oz

NoArmorSave wrote:The Daemon player really dropped the ball. He had no Blood Crushers in his list, and he was running Fateweaver. I am not sure how
much he play tested, but the entire list needs to be rebuilt.

The fact that he made it through to the final 16 would seem to suggest otherwise...

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Dallas Texas

thank you for posting this

5000+ pts. Eldar 2500pts
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Made in us
Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions





CT

I honestly can not tell if Noarmorsave is trolling or not here...
Yeah, all those players brought fluffy lists...Thats what happens at adepticon finals, along with nova invit. Fluffy lists.

Also, what super WAAC environment do you play in? I personally would like to see it and play in it if these lists seem "fluffy" compared to yours.


Addendum, thanks to BoK for throwing up the lists for us.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/25 04:31:35


Fortune Favors the Bold
 
   
Made in us







Getting my broom incase there is shenanigans.

In every thread Noarmorsave says that he is the best demon player, and he can beat anybody and the winning lists at tournaments are not very good.

And Tasty, I can give you Ricky Johnson's list tomorrow.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/25 05:33:51



 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
#1 Supporter of Dakka Fascism





Pasadena

Blackmoor wrote:In every thread Noarmorsave says that he is the best demon player, and he can beat anybody and the winning lists at tournaments are not very good.


Ya, I have been noticing this too. Anyone ever played him before?

Sand, he's not on dakka, has played Daemons at GE: Pasadena for a while now and he is really good with them. Easily the best Daemon player I have ever played against, you'll have a chance to play him in the WHMS Blackmoor he is in your division.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/25 05:55:46


Overwatch.
Capture and Control
, http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/469098.page ! Sadly the are gone.
DT:80+S+++G++M++B+++I+++Pw40k96+ID++A+++/eWD-R+++T(T)DM+
Dashofpepper wrote:
If I enter the Olympics in the 100 meter dash, out of shape and not ready for it....and I get smoked....are my competitors bad sportsmen for putting me to shame? Absolutely not. As in 40k, getting blown out of the water is an opportunity for introspection and self-improvement, not an invitation to criticize and bemoan.
 
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




Blackmoor wrote:In every thread Noarmorsave says that he is the best demon player, and he can beat anybody and the winning lists at tournaments are not very good.


No dude, that is you. You call yourself the "Foremost Draigo Wing Expert".

I said I am one of the best Daemon players, not THE BEST. I do, however, have lots of games using Daemons against very competitive Grey Knight players. The
fact is, Daemons can be a real nightmare for Grey Knights if they are built and played correctly.

When did I say I can "beat anybody"? I said no such thing. I am just very competitive, and would gladly compete with any of these people in a game of 40K.

Did you even read my analysis of the lists? Why don't you start by going over my technical commentary, instead of running off wiht diarrhea of the mouth?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/25 05:24:13


 
   
Made in us
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#1 Supporter of Dakka Fascism





Pasadena

NoArmorSave wrote:
Blackmoor wrote:In every thread Noarmorsave says that he is the best demon player, and he can beat anybody and the winning lists at tournaments are not very good.


No dude, that is you. You call yourself the "Foremost Draigo Wing Expert".

I said I am one of the best Daemon players, not THE BEST. I do, however, have lots of games using Daemons against very competitive Grey Knight players. The
fact is, Daemons can be a real nightmare for Grey Knights if they are built and played correctly.

When did I say I can "beat anybody"? I said no such thing. I am just very competitive, and would gladly compete with any of these people in a game of 40K.

Did you even read my analysis of the lists? Why don't you start by going over my technical commentary, instead of running off wiht diarrhea of the mouth?



You wrote three sentences on the Daemon list. One of which stated he needs to rethink the whole list; which given his placing in the top 16 at Adepticon would seem to suggest otherwise. Blackmoor is pretty much considered an authority on Draigowing btw, I doubt anyone would say otherwise. Besides you of course.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
NoArmorSave wrote:
tastytaste wrote:For anyone interested here is a link to most of the top 16 lists from the Adepticon Finals on Sunday...

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2012/04/24/tournament-circuit-adepticon-championship-results-and-lists/


Thanks for posting, I wanted to see the other lists besides Chester's Grey Knights.

Honestly, I am not impressed with most of the lists I have reviewed so far. Most of them are not optimized in the most competitive way possible.

Some obervations:

I liked Tony Kopach's Space Wolves. His list is solid, but I would have dropped the Wolf Guard and added a unit of TWC instead.
I would also say that Jose Mendeze's Dark Angels were pretty optimized, however I question running 2 Land Raiders at 1850, even in an all Death Wing army.
Alexander's Necrons seem to be about the best the Necron codex has so far, so Kudos to him. However, his list would be devastated by a proper Fatecrusher or
a good Draigo Wing player IMHO. He didn't face either in this tournament as far as I could tell.

The Daemon player really dropped the ball. He had no Blood Crushers in his list, and he was running Fateweaver. I am not sure how
much he play tested, but the entire list needs to be rebuilt.

The Grey Knight players think they are onto something by running squads of 3 Warrior Acolytes in a Razorback or Chimera, with a couple
supporting units of Purifiers or a unit of Death Cult Assassins. I don't buy it, and think it is far inferior to an IG Leafblower list running Melta
Vets in Chimeras.


I am thinking some of these folks were playing more on the "fluffy" side, than bringing WAAC lists. I dunno, maybe I am just jaded from playing in a hardcore WAAC enviornment.


Ok, this guy has to be trolling us right?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/04/25 05:37:22


Overwatch.
Capture and Control
, http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/469098.page ! Sadly the are gone.
DT:80+S+++G++M++B+++I+++Pw40k96+ID++A+++/eWD-R+++T(T)DM+
Dashofpepper wrote:
If I enter the Olympics in the 100 meter dash, out of shape and not ready for it....and I get smoked....are my competitors bad sportsmen for putting me to shame? Absolutely not. As in 40k, getting blown out of the water is an opportunity for introspection and self-improvement, not an invitation to criticize and bemoan.
 
   
Made in cn
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From England. Living in Shanghai

I say prove it. Blackmoor's own record speaks for itself, as do the finalists at these high level events.

Thanks to the OP for posting.
   
Made in us







Getting my broom incase there is shenanigans.

NoArmorSave wrote:

I said I am one of the best Daemon players, not THE BEST. I do, however, have lots of games using Daemons against very competitive Grey Knight players.



You have never played a competitive Grey Knight player because you have never played at a major tournament before.

You are in New Mexico so head over to Wargames Con and win that to show us how good you are.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/25 05:44:10



 
   
Made in de
Plastictrees





Bonn

NoArmorSave wrote:
Did you even read my analysis of the lists? Why don't you start by going over my technical commentary, [...].


Where is it? I would like to read it.
All Im seeing up tops is Fateweaver minus Crushers sux ...

Big thanks to Blood of Kittens for posting the lists!
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Blackmoor wrote:
NoArmorSave wrote:

I said I am one of the best Daemon players, not THE BEST. I do, however, have lots of games using Daemons against very competitive Grey Knight players.



You have never played a competitive Grey Knight player because you have never played at a major tournament before.

You are in New Mexico so head over to Wargames Con and win that to show us how good you are.


Are you saying that the only competitive Grey Knight players are those attending major tournaments?

Are you sure about that? I have seen your 2K Grey Knight list, it's nothing different than what I have played against many
times before. Your posted battle reports aren't special.

Also - how do you know who I play against? Are you sure the people I play with aren't traveling tournament players?

Fact is, I bet I play the game more than you do. I often play 3-4 times a week when my schedule permits, especially during
the winter months.






Automatically Appended Next Post:
Flachzange wrote:
NoArmorSave wrote:
Did you even read my analysis of the lists? Why don't you start by going over my technical commentary, [...].


Where is it? I would like to read it.
All Im seeing up tops is Fateweaver minus Crushers sux ...

Big thanks to Blood of Kittens for posting the lists!


Go away

P.S. - Your avatar "sux"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/25 06:14:28


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




San Jose, CA

@NoArmorSave:

Sometimes, it's not the list but the player behind the lists.

The players that you are critiquing are seasoned tournament players with records of success at such events. That is why there is so such "resistance" to some of your claims.

Instead of making some of the claims you make, I suggest why not do a battle report against one of the better players in your area? That will go a long ways into "soothing" the "naysayers" here on dakka. It may also offer insight on how to play a proper fatecrusher build. Just something to consider.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/25 06:22:52


6th Edition Tournaments:

Golden Throne GT 2012 - 1st
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Jy2's 6th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links

 
   
Made in us







Getting my broom incase there is shenanigans.

NoArmorSave wrote:

Are you saying that the only competitive Grey Knight players are those attending major tournaments?


That is the only way we know that they are good.

Are you sure about that? I have seen your 2K Grey Knight list, it's nothing different than what I have played against many
times before. Your posted battle reports aren't special.

Can you post links to your battle reports so I can respond in kind?

Also - how do you know who I play against? Are you sure the people I play with aren't traveling tournament players?

If they are well known you would have said it already.

Fact is, I bet I play the game more than you do. I often play 3-4 times a week when my schedule permits, especially during
the winter months.


I bet you play more than me too!






 
   
Made in gb
Twisted Trueborn with Blaster




Webway

Flachzange wrote:
NoArmorSave wrote:
Did you even read my analysis of the lists? Why don't you start by going over my technical commentary, [...].


Where is it? I would like to read it.
All Im seeing up tops is Fateweaver minus Crushers sux ...

Big thanks to Blood of Kittens for posting the lists!


He does have fiends and seekers with a ton of rending attacks if his lucky.

crushers are probably too slow.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/25 06:26:29



 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




jy2 wrote:@NoArmorSave:

Sometimes, it's not the list but the player behind the lists.

The players that you are critiquing are seasoned tournament players with records of success at such events. That is why there is so such "resistance" to some of your claims.

Instead of making some of the claims you make, I suggest why not do a battle report against one of the better players in your area? That will go a long ways into "soothing" the "naysayers" here on dakka. It may also offer insight on how to play a proper fatecrusher build. Just something to consider.



That's fine, however it doesn't mean they are perfect or better than other players because they went to Adepticon. There are major problems with a lot of those supposed WAAC lists. Major problems.
All of them are "good" lists, but actually pretty mild to the stuff I have seen.

I guess I just play with a lot of WAAC players using utterly maxed twinkie lists.

As far as battle reports: I have been wanting to start doing them for a while. My current issues are A - time (I just don't want to deal with it frankly. Too much other stuff on the fire), B - camera. I am currently stuck with what is built into my smart phone.

I am also getting burned out playing Fatecrusher. I have played it so much, I am starting to focus on some of my other armies. I own over 15,000 points of Daemons, with 8,000 painted. It is time to do something else for a while.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




Is this some hipster thread that I just don't get?


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/04/25 06:34:38


 
   
Made in us
Sergeant Major






In the dark recesses of your mind...

That's fine, however it doesn't mean they are perfect or better than other players because they went to Adepticon. There are major problems with a lot of those supposed WAAC lists. Major problems.
All of them are "good" lists, but actually pretty mild to the stuff I have seen.


So those sixteen lists, that beat out a field of 240 other lists are just meh? And the guys playing them would all fall prey to your daemons. Got it.

Maybe those major problems aren't problems at all since they were proven successful in a major event? Maybe what the internet says or what you say is the top build isn't really that.


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Plastictrees





Bonn

NoArmorSave wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Flachzange wrote:
NoArmorSave wrote:
Did you even read my analysis of the lists? Why don't you start by going over my technical commentary, [...].


Where is it? I would like to read it.
All Im seeing up tops is Fateweaver minus Crushers sux ...

Big thanks to Blood of Kittens for posting the lists!


Go away

P.S. - Your avatar "sux"


Ummm, so let me get this straight: You recommend people go over your "technical commentary" which is appearently non-existent (at least in this thread) and when somebody is actually interested you get all butt-hurt and insulting?! You're hilarious.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/25 07:22:57


 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Zealous Witch Finder






London, UK

NoArmorSave wrote:I am thinking some of these folks were playing more on the "fluffy" side, than bringing WAAC lists. I dunno, maybe I am just jaded from playing in a hardcore WAAC enviornment.


I'm GLAD to see that some of the top-scoring lists weren't uber-spam 'optimised' lists. It shows that we have some very good players rather than just spam lists.

I'm happy to see what looks like relatively balanced and sensible IG and Necron lists in the top 16.
I'm sad to see spam-based netlists like GK Purifier/Razorback and four squads of identical Deathwing.

NoArmorSave wrote:That's fine, however it doesn't mean they are perfect or better than other players because they went to Adepticon. There are major problems with a lot of those supposed WAAC lists. Major problems.All of them are "good" lists, but actually pretty mild to the stuff I have seen.

I guess I just play with a lot of WAAC players using utterly maxed twinkie lists.


Your right that we can't completely judge how 'good' a player is by winning Adepticon. There may be, and probably are, tons of better players who simply can't afford to get there. However, we have to go on the evidence we have.

As people have pointed out, the fact that people have won major events with these lists may mean that they're not as 'bad' as they look, and that the people playing with them have enough experience with the list to know how to play it. Nobody thought Leafblower was any good until it started winning tournaments..

I'm not going to compare myself to your daemon-playing GRAETNESS, but I run an all-Slaanesh list which looks absolutely awful on paper. And I lost with it for a long time until I figured out how to play it properly. I've since placed reasonably well in a few larger tournaments and won one smaller one with them.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/04/25 07:50:16


   
Made in us
[MOD]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

Blackmoor said he was the foremost Draigowing player a) tongue in cheek, and b) because he is/was the highest-scoring player with the army in any national event. 2nd at NOVA as opposed to Paul Murphy's 4th at Adepticon probably means Blackmoor still could be fairly said to have that unofficial title (unless I missed someone else at a different event).

NoArmorSave wrote:
jy2 wrote:The players that you are critiquing are seasoned tournament players with records of success at such events. That is why there is so such "resistance" to some of your claims.

Instead of making some of the claims you make, I suggest why not do a battle report against one of the better players in your area? That will go a long ways into "soothing" the "naysayers" here on dakka. It may also offer insight on how to play a proper fatecrusher build. Just something to consider.


That's fine, however it doesn't mean they are perfect or better than other players because they went to Adepticon. There are major problems with a lot of those supposed WAAC lists. Major problems.
All of them are "good" lists, but actually pretty mild to the stuff I have seen.

As far as battle reports: I have been wanting to start doing them for a while. My current issues are A - time (I just don't want to deal with it frankly. Too much other stuff on the fire), B - camera. I am currently stuck with what is built into my smart phone.


As we all know, the nature of our hobby is that there are certainly some good, even great, players who don't get out to a lot of big events. It's equally true that a lot of guys who crush their local competition find out rapidly once they start traveling that they were a big fish in a small pond and that what they thought was good or bad shifts once they play against good players from outside their area.

You have two real options when it comes to demonstrating that you're not full of hot air or trolling: Either prove it on the table at the big events, or prove it on the table in detailed battle reports showing your tactics and reasoning on the turn-by-turn level. There have been some recent battle repots by "jesse" in the bat reps forum which are good examples (especially his reports from the Warm Fabric Nationals GT).

Either way, being dismissive or insulting towards these folks or their lists is just going to get a negative reaction until you can actually demonstrate that you know what you're talking about. If you are unable and/or unwilling to do that, you might want to couch your criticisms in more respectful and polite terms, and solicit info from the players to learn if there's something they know which you're missing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/25 11:53:54


TempleCon Onslaught GT 2014: 22nd/56 Adepticon '13: Team Tourney 10th/123- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championships Qualifier: 9th/233, TotalCon Crusader NOVA Qualifier Feb '13: Best Overall, More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.
"I'm not as interested in the Warrior Priest ... Although he does seem kind of badass; I've seen the kind of gak that is going down in the world of Warhammer Fantasy Battle and I have to say that doesn't seem like a shoes-optional situation to me." -Ouze 
   
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[DCM]
Mighty Brass Scorpion of Khorne





St. Louis, MO

It looks like NoArmorSave is just trying to get some visibility for when he quits Dakka and starts his own blog, as other folks have in the past by calling out tourney players and being negative nancy's. (I'm talking about Stelek and YTTH of course.)

For real NoArmorSave, just save us all the headache and start your own blog already.

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Cleveland, OH

Yeah, I think if nothing else, he's accomplished his goal. Instead of talking about players that succeed in tournaments or their lists, we're talking about him.


My Painted Armies
Co. B, 37th Praetorian IG: 13,000pts
Daigo's Household Guard: 1850pts
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Blackmoor doesn't want any of my DraigoWing.

I was thinking about retiring it after Adepticon but I am thinking of now taking it to Wargames Con. It just fits so well on an airplane.

   
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Atlanta, Ga

Well...just to attempt to get back on topic...Why the hell does Bloodofkittens.com only work when it's 1 in the afternoon and sunny?

I mean seriously, I've been trying for the past 5 hours to get onto the site with no avail.


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