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What major race isn't protected by industrial amounts of plot-armor, exactly?

Yes it is neccessary for a PC-game to provide an end for each playable factions victory.
GW accepted ( or missed to refute ) the end sequence given to a Tau victory.

Generally, the rulebook also has to provide a possible victory for each faction.

But you have claimed there are no quotes to make, so assuming I am supporting the IoM here and thus a possible "tau-hater", I' ll add a quote to prove the evil of the Tau ( more precisely, rebuke the nonsense of good guys ).:

BL/ Sons of Dorn.
Imperial fist marine ( the same that accompanied the imperial envoy in the Tau codex story ):
page 9

...the full weigth of the Tau forces led by Commander Brightsword fell on Nimbosa before the Imperium'S forces had arrived.
Not a single human colonist survived the assault, down to the youngest child.

page 11:

...First he had failed to avert the Tau offensive, and as a result he considered the death of the human colonists in their millions as his responsibility, and his alone.

This is no accident. Its a ongoing story from codex Tau, thus canon.

The Tau seem to 'Imperium-Light'

IvanTih wrote:Here's a hint, it took humans tens of millenia to reach this point.

Wrong. Humankinds technology regressed.

1hadhq wrote:Yes it is neccessary for a PC-game to provide an end for each playable factions victory.
GW accepted ( or missed to refute ) the end sequence given to a Tau victory.

Generally, the rulebook also has to provide a possible victory for each faction.

But you have claimed there are no quotes to make, so assuming I am supporting the IoM here and thus a possible "tau-hater", I' ll add a quote to prove the evil of the Tau ( more precisely, rebuke the nonsense of good guys ).:

BL/ Sons of Dorn.
Imperial fist marine ( the same that accompanied the imperial envoy in the Tau codex story ):
page 9

...the full weigth of the Tau forces led by Commander Brightsword fell on Nimbosa before the Imperium'S forces had arrived.
Not a single human colonist survived the assault, down to the youngest child.

page 11:

...First he had failed to avert the Tau offensive, and as a result he considered the death of the human colonists in their millions as his responsibility, and his alone.

This is no accident. Its a ongoing story from codex Tau, thus canon.

So the Tau Empire is utterly evil, because they immediately sacked Brightsword after this massacre?
Or did this fact slip your mind by pure chance?
BTW Brightsword is a pupil of Commander Farsight of the Farsight enclave.

And in the DoW alternative end never happening in the 40k universe, an imperial observer speculates, why men and women separated from each other don't get children (ask Mom and Dad about this ). Only the third likeliest option he comes up with is the sterilization theory.

The battery also charges from heat, for example by being put in a fire. This is done by making use of the temperature differential between two different zones.

The only way to create a useable differential in the battery is to create a cold region inside it, insulated from the hot surface. This cold region will heat up while generating energy, so in order for it to continue working, the incoming heat needs to be discharged somewhere. It can't be discharged to the surface, as thay is already hot, so it must be compressed into a black hole, or sent into hyperspace or some other means of compressing and discharging heat unknown to modern physics.

I'm not saying that 40K Handwavium technology can't create such a device, because obviously it can, just that it is a very complex thing to do.

I assume that lasgun batteries are stamped out by a Standard Template Construct which no-one understands any longer, but as long as it keeps working, the IG are all right.

O I see, Im sure lasgun batteries are stamped out like cookies in the 40k universe.
Yes though, that is incredibly complex by todays standards haha. However im sure you talk to a 40k person and its like common knowlegge

I also must say when you had used that statement about micro-chips, I was talking about the difference of how the two guns work. I should have explained it better. I read how the pulse rifle fires and it sounded quite interesting and in depth. Im not 100% sure how the lasgun works but it cant be as in depth I wouldnt think.

agnosto wrote:

The moral? Join the greater good, we'll send an ethereal out to talk to you and don't worry about the pheromones.

Unless your Urien of the DE and turn a few Ethereals into wracks. Plus tons of other caste members.

Kanluwen wrote:Look through the book yourself.

I'd also like to point out that within Taros, a planet that literally just defected to the Tau Empire, there were Gue'vasa units that assaulted the water plant that the Elysians captured.
Those Gue'vasa? They weren't armed with lasguns and flak vests. They had Fire Warrior grade equipment.

you're the one supposedly citing something.

I am surprised that anyone begin to say something about the Tau being Mary-Sue or whatever when you have Space Marines... especially Ultra Marines.

Of course, as ridiculous as the fluff for 40k is(even more ridiculous than comic books), I don't see how anyone can really get that vested into it. The 40k universe has some of the most ridiculous/cheesy stuff I have have the pleasure of coming across. I mean really... Space Zombies, Space Elves, S&M Space Elves, Mushroom Golblin/Ork monsters, Locust/Alien monsters, and Super Awesome Magical Kick Everyone's Ass Cuz they're OVER 9000 AWESOME-O Human Space Army, and a nazi germany inspired horde of crunchies. How realistic, deep, and riveting.

Good game though.

I say the only race that really doesnt make sense are the orks...... they grow. From a mushroom.......

Kroothawk wrote:
So the Tau Empire is utterly evil, because they immediately sacked Brightsword after this massacre?
Or did this fact slip your mind by pure chance?
BTW Brightsword is a pupil of Commander Farsight of the Farsight enclave.

And in the DoW alternative end never happening in the 40k universe, an imperial observer speculates, why men and women separated from each other don't get children (ask Mom and Dad about this ). Only the third likeliest option he comes up with is the sterilization theory.

No, the Tau Empire is as evil as everyone in 40k.
Proven by GW.

You blame the greater good or brightsword alone?
Did the fact a leaders actions affect the whole armies reputation slip your mind?
Next thing I see is youre saying its Farsight's fault?
Ok so who was the mind and coach behind the known fire-caste leaders? Will you blame him too?

Sorry, thats awful. Its like saying the IoM usually acts like those treacherous chaos"marines", because they once followed the Emperor.

Secondly, DoW happens in 40k, as 40k and GW's influence is all over it. Its maybe just 1 possible future ( or all of them if a player decides to play the campaign with each faction ) and thus not past or present like any fluff-story of M42 .
But, we don't need DoW since I did provide a story from codices and BL books. Is your point that 2-3 codices and a BL publication are invalid?
Would assume if GW runs with 1 story across several publications, this is meant to be canon.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Look through the book yourself.

I'd also like to point out that within Taros, a planet that literally just defected to the Tau Empire, there were Gue'vasa units that assaulted the water plant that the Elysians captured.
Those Gue'vasa? They weren't armed with lasguns and flak vests. They had Fire Warrior grade equipment.

you're the one supposedly citing something.

+1 on that. I've just read operation comet and skimmed the rest of the book - I'm not seeing any references to the state of the human auxiliaries equipment or any instance of them fighting against the guardsmen.

1hadhq wrote:No, the Tau Empire is as evil as everyone in 40k.
Proven by GW.

Original Tau designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.(emphasis by me)

Sorry, bad times for making up Tau hater stuff when I am around.

1hadhq wrote:You blame the greater good or brightsword alone?

The decision for the massacre was made by a single military leader, who was trained by another massacre happy military leader. The latter was expelled from the Tau Empire, the former immediately sacked from his post, as massacres are not compatible with the Greater Good (except in extreme cases like a Tyranid invasion).

The Greater Good is not an obscure and totalitarian Death Cult, it is the pragmatic principle that working together without subjugating anyone, but enjoying the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology is better than killing each other. The European Union is based on similar principles and wouldn't accept a new member state either that threatens other member states with military action.

1hadhq wrote:Secondly, DoW happens in 40k, as 40k and GW's influence is all over it. Its maybe just 1 possible future ( or all of them if a player decides to play the campaign with each faction ) and thus not past or present like any fluff-story of M42 .
But, we don't need DoW since I did provide a story from codices and BL books. Is your point that 2-3 codices and a BL publication are invalid?
Would assume if GW runs with 1 story across several publications, this is meant to be canon.

The Brightsword massacre is canon, as is him being sacked for it. Farsight is in the Codex as well, without being part of the Tau Empire. Both are introduced for people wanting to play Tau but not wanting to miss their beloved massacres.

I don't deny that there is a potential of violent behavior in Tau (see Mont'au civil war times that almost extinguished the Tau race), but in the current Tau society under ethereal leadership, this is under control.

Scott-S6 wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Look through the book yourself.

I'd also like to point out that within Taros, a planet that literally just defected to the Tau Empire, there were Gue'vasa units that assaulted the water plant that the Elysians captured.
Those Gue'vasa? They weren't armed with lasguns and flak vests. They had Fire Warrior grade equipment.

you're the one supposedly citing something.

+1 on that. I've just read operation comet and skimmed the rest of the book - I'm not seeing any references to the state of the human auxiliaries equipment or any instance of them fighting against the guardsmen.

There's PDF vs Imperium in the missile silo misssion but of course PDF have imperial equipment. When you cite material you don't go "find it yourself" after.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Look through the book yourself.

I'd also like to point out that within Taros, a planet that literally just defected to the Tau Empire, there were Gue'vasa units that assaulted the water plant that the Elysians captured.
Those Gue'vasa? They weren't armed with lasguns and flak vests. They had Fire Warrior grade equipment.

you're the one supposedly citing something.

+1 on that. I've just read operation comet and skimmed the rest of the book - I'm not seeing any references to the state of the human auxiliaries equipment or any instance of them fighting against the guardsmen.

There's PDF vs Imperium in the missile silo misssion but of course PDF have imperial equipment. When you cite material you don't go "find it yourself" after.

Yep, saw that. Can't see anything about the re-organized human auxiliaries apart from a few references to the fact that they exist (like when the captured officer was offered command of them)

All races in 40k are evil, its as simple as that. Just like every country in the real world does messed up things to get what they want. Everyone has an evil side.

The only things that arent evil by definition are Tyranid. They are just surviving naturaly, but when we look at them they are evil as hell.

The Tau are run on mind control, that is messed up and evil. The IoM has decimated billions in the name of the god-emperor. The Eldar created slaanesh, how else is this done but by evil acts. Orks just love war. Dark Eldar kill for fun and steal souls. Chaos, well yeah its chaos. Necrons also steal souls. everyone is evil in a way. Some more obvious than others, its how onbvious these races make their evil agendas that they gat their labels as "good" or "bad.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:All races in 40k are evil, its as simple as that.

Wrong, simple as that:

Original Tau designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.(emphasis by me)

xXSir MontyXx wrote:The Tau are run on mind control, that is messed up and evil.

Also wrong. Tau react to an ethereal no different as a human to a primarch. And bringing peace to a violent society on the rim to self destruction is not evil.

As I said, bad times for making up Tau hater stuff when I am around.

Ok so how many people in this thread have said tha the Etherals use pheremones to control the Tau, they go through civil war and everything else just like normal then they show up and everything is perfect? Dont sit here and say "As I said, bad times for making up Tau hater stuff when I am around." When your not actualy doing anything to be right about anything you say.

If you have an opinion say it. But back it up with ATLEAST logic. I may not always cite my arguments but atleast I give a reason to why I think that way and will admit when I am wrong.

You however just sit there and stubbornly say no to ANYONE tha says the slightest negative comment about tau. Stop being such a Tau groupie and have a normal debate.

Yes primarchs do control alot of the population with words but human history has undoubtedly shown we are not perfect like the Tau suddenly are. A society cannot be perfect, especially a caste society. Then you have envy and hate for other castes, if you are born into something that you dont want you will never want to do what you are supposed to in that society. Luckily the Etherals just put you in line with calming pheremones.

Bad times for being a Tau groupie when im around.

So now I will do a "Kroothawk" post;

No your wrong Tau are cool and I love them. and..... and Tau are just super dooper awesome and are the only not evil race in the galaxy. Even though you bashed EVERY race Sir Monty Im gona only point out the Tau stuff cuz theyre so uber.

Bad times for making up Tau hater stuff when im around.

Kroothawk wrote:

Original Tau designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.(emphasis by me)

Sorry, bad times for making up Tau hater stuff when I am around.

1) bad times for your trolling of any view of Tau not compliant with yours.
2) designers notes aren't available from GW. They existed once to explain a new faction, but GW did NOT include these in any Tau fluff afterwards.
So youre asking to have a "fluff as intended" vs "fluff as written" debate?
3) this is 5th ed. Tau background evolved, they got 2 codices and someday maybe a third. Tau are still included in several other GW publications like rulebooks, expansions, codices of other factions... You need to adapt.
4) the impression of Tau should be taken from available sources. outdated designers notes are not valid anymore.
5) I doubt youre able to give me bad times

Kroothawk wrote:
The decision for the massacre was made by a single military leader, who was trained by another massacre happy military leader. The latter was expelled from the Tau Empire, the former immediately sacked from his post, as massacres are not compatible with the Greater Good (except in extreme cases like a Tyranid invasion).

Corrections.
- Etherals have the final say, always. They also accompany the other Tau when the leave the Empire's borders and surely take the role of fire-caste 'advisor' not
lightly. Only farsight turned his back upon the Empire and he lost his 'advisors' before that.
- Farsight left on his own, the so called massacres against ork waagh's are not the same as massacring civilians.
- Brightsword isn't said to act without the etherals consent there, why should they not keep a etheral around when farsight already did not return?
- Brightsword was "reprimanded" ( which is also a hinted action, not confirmed ). how do we now it was not just : and then he got sent to another warzone?
- the fire caste did slaughter the civilians at nimbosa. Brightsword was reprimanded for his deeds against the IG/PDF. Massacring the unarmed is fine then?
- the fire caste soldiery who was following brightswords orders wasn't responsible at all since they had their orders, right?
- its unlikely to massacre millions without the higher ups knowing it.

Kroothawk wrote:
The Greater Good is not an obscure and totalitarian Death Cult, it is the pragmatic principle that working together without subjugating anyone, but enjoying the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology is better than killing each other. The European Union is based on similar principles and wouldn't accept a new member state either that threatens other member states with military action.

The EU is a political union, not a Empire on the offensive in a war. The EU also tends to support action vs common threats, the Tau do not.
The EU does not threathen states to "join or die", Tau do.

Kroothawk wrote:
The Brightsword massacre is canon, as is him being sacked for it. Farsight is in the Codex as well, without being part of the Tau Empire. Both are introduced for people wanting to play Tau but not wanting to miss their beloved massacres.

Tabletop wargamers want their chosen faction to massacre someone?

Kroothawk wrote:
I don't deny that there is a potential of violent behavior in Tau (see Mont'au civil war times that almost extinguished the Tau race), but in the current Tau society under ethereal leadership, this is under control.

Obviously the violence is controlled. Those not fully under control ( kroot ) get the 'honor' of sacrificing themselves to stop the nids and those under control
(vespids) are trusted allies....
Somehow, I dislike this ally 1st class, ally 2nd class scheme there.

Also Kroothawk and friends just because we are saying "Tau did something bad here" doesn't mean we are attacking the Tau or something. Finding other sides to the Tau like political nuance and ideological dissent are good things! Many of us are just trying to find something interesting about the Tau.

The biggest problem with the Tau is that they are Mary Sues. All conflict both on a personal level and political level that fiction has addressed since we could write seems to be explained away with etheral magic pixie dust and "low warp presence". We're talking about the mary sueest of Mary Sues here.

Other sides, conflict and nuance are a good thing!

xXSir MontyXx wrote:If you have an opinion say it. But back it up with ATLEAST logic. I may not always cite my arguments but atleast I give a reason to why I think that way and will admit when I am wrong.
You however just sit there and stubbornly say no to ANYONE tha says the slightest negative comment about tau. Stop being such a Tau groupie and have a normal debate.

1hadhq wrote:1) bad times for your trolling of any view of Tau not compliant with yours.

If you two find it offensive and trolling, when someone proves your made up stuff wrong, put more effort in making up stuff or stop making up stuff.

BTW I have read most current Tau background texts, have you?
How about reading the novel "Kill Team" if you want to read about the end of Brightsword?

1hadhq wrote:Tabletop wargamers want their chosen faction to massacre someone?

Obviously many 40k gamers can't live with one fraction not being TH3 3VULZZZ. That's what is at the root of all Tau hate.

1hadhq wrote:Those not fully under control ( kroot ) get the 'honor' of sacrificing themselves to stop the nids and those under control
(vespids) are trusted allies....
Somehow, I dislike this ally 1st class, ally 2nd class scheme there.

Tau strategy doesn't know disposable lives or meatshields.
Tau trust Kroot so much that one was made a general of the Tau army (Angkor Prok). On the other side, they know that Kroot have a hidden agenda and fight for others (which included tau enemies like Orks and Chaos), so not trusting in absolute Kroot loyalty is reasonable.

Kroothawk wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:If you have an opinion say it. But back it up with ATLEAST logic. I may not always cite my arguments but atleast I give a reason to why I think that way and will admit when I am wrong.
You however just sit there and stubbornly say no to ANYONE tha says the slightest negative comment about tau. Stop being such a Tau groupie and have a normal debate.

1hadhq wrote:1) bad times for your trolling of any view of Tau not compliant with yours.

If you two find it offensive and trolling, when someone proves your made up stuff wrong, put more effort in making up stuff or stop making up stuff.

BTW I have read most current Tau background texts, have you?
How about reading the novel "Kill Team" if you want to read about the end of Brightsword?

1hadhq wrote:Tabletop wargamers want their chosen faction to massacre someone?

Obviously many 40k gamers can't live with one fraction not being TH3 3VULZZZ. That's what is at the root of all Tau hate.

1hadhq wrote:Those not fully under control ( kroot ) get the 'honor' of sacrificing themselves to stop the nids and those under control
(vespids) are trusted allies....
Somehow, I dislike this ally 1st class, ally 2nd class scheme there.

Tau strategy doesn't know disposable lives or meatshields.
Tau trust Kroot so much that one was made a general of the Tau army (Angkor Prok). On the other side, they know that Kroot have a hidden agenda and fight for others (which included tau enemies like Orks and Chaos), so not trusting in absolute Kroot loyalty is reasonable.

Ok well you never prove anything wrong you just blatantly disagree. This is the first time i have seen you cite anything but the codex. Codex's are informative but they always give their army a glowing reputation. You need to look past your blind love of the Tau and see that they are just as evil as anyone or anything else. The fact that you sit here and type away how amazingly good the tau are even though you have like 4 people telling you the Ethereals are controlling them. Cite all you want we have obviously read this in multiple places.
Also, im not rooting for just my faction, I love the Imperial Guard. So your wrong..... again.

I wouldn't say the Tau are as evil as everyone else. They are least evil. Just saying they are not 100% good. And if they are 100% good.... that's bad.

xXSir MontyXx wrote: Codex's are informative but they always give their army a glowing reputation. You need to look past your blind love of the Tau and see that they are just as evil as anyone or anything else. The fact that you sit here and type away how amazingly good the tau are even though you have like 4 people telling you the Ethereals are controlling them.

Let's just agree that your view on Tau is not compatible with what the Tau Codex and its authors say.
If a Tau haters view on Tau is in contradiction to the Codex, then obviously the Codex and its authors must be wrong

A freind of mine starting to play tau, he intends to model a Tau Ethereal as Emperor Palpatine.

I think the tau are morally ambivalent, I think its the ethereals that make them into communistic mass murderers. The Tau expansions were all at the behest of the Ethereals, the rail rifles being pushed into early use despite being lethally unstable to the user was due to the Ethereals.

sigh, I'm going to let you handle that last one Kroothawk.

Kroothawk wrote:
If you two find it offensive and trolling, when someone proves your made up stuff wrong, put more effort in making up stuff or stop making up stuff.

So you stop posting crap if we find it trolling, now?
As far as I am concerned, nothing was made up.
Should I bother to post tons of quotes to counter your outdated irrelevant snippet you love so much?
I simply don't need to. As obviously GW themselves decided to move on with Tau fluff. You don't like to keep up, fine. Stick with your superfriends in space X2
as long as you want, but never expect anyone to accept your pre-first-Tau-codex view as relevant in 5th ed.

Kroothawk wrote:
BTW I have read most current Tau background texts, have you?
How about reading the novel "Kill Team" if you want to read about the end of Brightsword?

If youre so clever as you believe, why don't you go find the pics of the thread where people posted their shelves?
Rest assured those books standing there were read, not just looked for pictures inside, you know.
Funnily , we have to buy another book, since Kroothawk can't use the quote function.

Kroothawk wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Tabletop wargamers want their chosen faction to massacre someone?

Obviously many 40k gamers can't live with one fraction not being TH3 3VULZZZ. That's what is at the root of all Tau hate.

Your assumptions are false.
Incoming poll....
BTW, GW had to change things when they moved on from small race located in a single system to expanding new upstart empire...

Kroothawk wrote:
Tau strategy doesn't know disposable lives or meatshields.

Tau strategy does not include disposable lives of Tau, yes.

Kroothawk wrote:
If a Tau haters view on Tau is in contradiction to the Codex, then obviously the Codex and its authors must be wrong

So if the , "tau-haters", view the Tau like the codices do, the fanboy is wrong when he contradicts his own codex.
Finally, you admit where you stand. Nice attempt to twist facts, sadly you fail again.

whoa, take a deep breath man. It's just a game.

I think the views of good and evil are very much human ideas. eherals could see their actions as very 'good' or 'evil' but we will only see what we think. Key word think. That’s the problem with humanity as apposed to the tau empire. We think and act on our thoughts. Tau or kroot or vespid might not act on their thoughts because their reasoning says that is of the advantage of the community as a whole to live with it. Think of bees in a hive. They will come out and sacrifice themselves if the hive is disturbed. A human would not jump to sacrifice him/herself. the idealistics are likely to be compleatly diffrent. It might not even be that the tau need the pheromones to stay happy. they might find that they a naturaly suited to working in a chase. vispid would find this perfict aswell as they are insectoid and likely worked in a hive like system aswell. With the exception of a few radicals (farsight) they might only use pheromones to bring the public to order in events such as rallys ect.



lol. I take theroy of knowlage

Every race has elements of mary-sue in it (the hypocrisy is mind-boggling if you're an IoM fan)